At odds about Christmas

[DixieBoy]

Thus we are not to take their holiday's and "convert" it into a christian one. We even adorn "christmas tres" with silver and Gold.

Trees and flowers can be used in the worship of God. The Temple was full of such things craved into the walls and doors. Nothing wrong with them at all, IMHO. Christmas trees are seasonal decoration. No one worships them that I know of. They are packed down or thrown out for the trash man to pick up.

Thus Christmas is no more than celebrating the sun over the dark time in the calander thus the sun is replaced by Christ but we are still reverencing the sun rather than Christ on christmas.

Sun and Morning Star are also names of Christ.

Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Anyhoo, my two cents.

 

[annsni]

But it was a tree was it not. And it was pagan.

And?? I have a ficus tree in my living room right now with lights on it. Is that wrong too?

Actually, it was not a tree. Note that they carved it. It was more like a totem pole, I'm sure.

 

[DixieBoy]

I know this topic has probably been raised before, but I really feel ambivalent about celebrating Christmas this year, especially because of its pagan roots and commercial emphasis. What are your opinions on why we should or shouldn't and is there an alternative way to celebrate while simultaneously not compromising?:saint:

Christ was at the Temple for Hanukkah. It was a man made holiday.

Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

Purim was set aside as a time of joy and feasting and giving gifts.

Est 9:19 This is why Jews who live in small towns observe the fourteenth day of the month of Adar as a joyous holiday, a time for feasting and giving gifts of food to one another.

Nothing seems to be wrong with setting aside a holiday.

 

[jaigner]

The origin of the word is Greek and its a composit of leitourgia which is as you say a Duty or service but encompassing a specified work and the word Laos or people or a work of the people. Which you've expanded to include a set schedule as defined in a calander. Baptist aren't liturgical and thus we are not Liturgical evangelicals.

I didn't expand it at all. Look it up. This definition has been alive and in common usage for centuries.

It is also inaccurate to label Baptists as non-liturgical. The majority, of course, are, but that has not always and in every instance correct. There are many Baptists that are liturgical in worship and in observance. I have been at times in my life.

Additionally, the way most corporate worship services are with prescribed form, many could be considered liturgical in a way.

I'm not making this stuff up, dude. Just reporting.

 

[Aaron]

I'm not a Scripture supplier. I read it. I pray over it. I follow the revelation it conveys.

It does little good to throw tiny bits of text around like a football in these cases.

If we are looking for a straight, normative, letter of a prescription for celebrating Christmas, we won't find it. But we can see where participants in our faith have long remembered and celebrated the sacred events in salvation history, even all the way back to some of the earliest biblical accounts.

If all we do is search the Bible for explicit, overarching prescriptions for cultic celebrations, we'll be doing a lot of strange things.

:thumbs::thumbs:

 

[annsni]

Hah! even the word liturgy means work. A work of the people. So a liturgical Calander means working to a calander!

And God does not condemn that.

 

[DixieBoy]

This is only presented to shed a different light on Christmas. Could it be?

# It thus appears without the shadow of a doubt that the day assigned to the Birth of the Lord, videlicet*: December 25, was the day on which He was "begotten of the Holy Ghost", that is to say, by pneuma hagion = divine power (Matthew 1:18, 20 marg.), and His birth took place on the 15th of Ethanim, September 29, in the year following, thus making beautifully clear the meaning of John 1:14,"The Word became flesh" (Matthew 1:18,20) on 1st Tebeth or December 25 (5 B.C.), "and tabernacled (Greek eskenosen) with us", on 15th of Ethanim or September 29 (4 B.C.). *[WBSG NOTE: VIDEL'ICET, adv. (L. for videre licet.) To wit; namely. An abbreviation for this word is viz.]

The 15th of Ethanim (or Tisri) was the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles. The Circumcision therefore took place on the eighth day of the Feast = 22nd Ethanim = October 6-7 (Leviticus 23:33-43). So that these two momentous events fall into their proper place and order, and the real reason is made clear why the 25th of December is associated with our Lord, and was set apart by the Apostolic Church to commemorate the stupendous event of the "Word becoming flesh" - and not, as we have for so long been led to suppose, the commemoration of a pagan festival.

Companion Bible

 

[Alcott]

Oh, how evil Paul must have been for "converting" the Athenian altar "to the unknown god" to worship of the true God.

 

[percho]

Yes, but we do not carve them into idols. The description in Jeremiah is not a Christmas tree.

You are right again. Most of them today are molded. :tongue3:

 

[percho]

Lets play around. I will not use total verses for space sake not for context sake. I hope.

Lev. 23:4 These [are] the feasts of the LORD, [even] holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. Part of Col.2:16,17 Let no man therefore judge you, in respect of an holy day, Which are a shadow of things to come.

Honest question for I know no Greek. Is this saying that at the time of the writing of Col.that they still are or is it saying, Which were.

1 Kings 12:32 pt. And Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, like unto the feast that [is] in Judah
Hosea 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.

Under which of these holy day feast would you say Christmas and Easter fall?

 

[DixieBoy]

Kings 12:32 pt. And Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, like unto the feast that [is] in Judah
Hosea 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.

Under which of these holy day feast would you say Christmas and Easter fall?

IMO, neither. Jeroboam changed the timing of the Holy Days. He tried to set up a replica of the temple too. Christmas or Easter are not a replica or replacement of Holy Days.

 

[percho]

IMO, neither. Jeroboam changed the timing of the Holy Days. He tried to set up a replica of the temple too. Christmas or Easter are not a replica or replacement of Holy Days.

Do you thing her feast days were the same as the feast of the LORD?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

And?? I have a ficus tree in my living room right now with lights on it. Is that wrong too?

Actually, it was not a tree. Note that they carved it. It was more like a totem pole, I'm sure.

Yes, I know for a fact Ficuses are evil. I had a roommate who irritatingly woke up early every morning to sing praises and spray the ficus waking me up with "this is the day that the Lord has made". Don't you see how insidiously evil that was? I blame it on the ficus. Evil. Wrapped in a package seemingly good like an angle of light but deep down inside insidiously evil. Dastardly really.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I didn't expand it at all. Look it up. This definition has been alive and in common usage for centuries.

Liturgy, and I know for a fact, means a duty or work of the people.
I didn't say you expanded the definition but the use of liturgical "work" to a calander. Which by the way the CATHOLICS do. And by association it evil and corrupt. Look at the other Heathen faith of Orthodoxy and Copts they also have a liturgical Calander. Look at the extremely liberal Lutheran and Anglican churches they also have a works Calander. Its EVIL.

It is also inaccurate to label Baptists as non-liturgical. The majority, of course, are, but that has not always and in every instance correct. There are many Baptists that are liturgical in worship and in observance. I have been at times in my life.

To be honest there are just about any many different baptist as there are denominations in the world. However, saved baptist understand they don't have to do a community work to be saved. And they know this because of Roman 4

Additionally, the way most corporate worship services are with prescribed form, many could be considered liturgical in a way.

Ahhhhhhhh! Close your ears! Heresy!!!!!!!! Ahhhhhh!

I'm not making this stuff up, dude. Just reporting.

Yeah I watch tv report the evils of the world to.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

And God does not condemn that.

God condemns all works to attain salvation. and a works calander is no difference! thats another gospel.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Oh, how evil Paul must have been for "converting" the Athenian altar "to the unknown god" to worship of the true God.

He didn't converted it. He used it as an explanation of the tendency of man to by reason acknowledge God but not understand who he is. thus the Unkown God reached by Greek reasoning could very well be Elohim. Or Ha Shem or YWHW. Whatever.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Lets play around. I will not use total verses for space sake not for context sake. I hope.

Lev. 23:4 These [are] the feasts of the LORD, [even] holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. Part of Col.2:16,17 Let no man therefore judge you, in respect of an holy day, Which are a shadow of things to come.

that refers to specific Jewish Holidays that are fulfilled in Christianity like the pascha. Not pagan ones like Sol Invictus.

Honest question for I know no Greek. Is this saying that at the time of the writing of Col.that they still are or is it saying, Which were.

Jewish Holidays again.

1 Kings 12:32 pt. And Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, like unto the feast that [is] in Judah
Hosea 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.

And?

Under which of these holy day feast would you say Christmas and Easter fall?

Easter is actually a jewish Holiday of Passover so the Paschal celebration can easily be a christian one. Now Christimas is related to Sol Invictus or Mythras thus it is not Jewish. If you attempt to related Christmas to Hannukah then we have a problem. As you know the accepted text that are canon or the word of God are the 39 books of the OT. There is a 400 - 500 year period of Silence after Ezra and Nehimiah return and re-establish the law. Hannukah is related to an insident found only in the book of Maccabees where the oil for the temple candles lasted an amazing 8 days. However the books of Maccabees are Apochrypha or hidden books not meant to be inscripture and read as inspired thus in order to celebrate Christmas not only are you marrying christianity to a dark mystery religion of Mythras but adding to the bible something that purposely set apart from the faith.
Thus insidiously Christmas is even more evil because it not only encourages pagan worship. And note how both buddha and Santa are fat men that give gifts. Also wears the red of the Bishop of Smyrna which supports Catholic hiarchy and leadership and also has a long beard hidding his face alluding to the Orthodox priesthood. but it encourages reading text like the approcrypha which can lead you astray in your faith and add scripture to the bible. So this holiday is inscidiously evil. JUST EVIL AHHHHH! RUN AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[annsni]

Yes, I know for a fact Ficuses are evil. I had a roommate who irritatingly woke up early every morning to sing praises and spray the ficus waking me up with "this is the day that the Lord has made". Don't you see how insidiously evil that was? I blame it on the ficus. Evil. Wrapped in a package seemingly good like an angle of light but deep down inside insidiously evil. Dastardly really.

:thumbs: ......

 

[annsni]

God condemns all works to attain salvation. and a works calander is no difference! thats another gospel.

If we were looking to Christmas or the liturgical calendar for salvation, I'd totally agree with you. Personally, I'm not into the liturgical calendar but I certainly love Christmas. It's got nothing to do with my salvation other than me celebrating the coming of the Messiah for my sins. If I don't celebrate it I'm not getting to heaven any faster than if I do.

 

[jaigner]

Liturgy, and I know for a fact, means a duty or work of the people.

To pervert the meaning in this way is petty and pretty strange.

I didn't say you expanded the definition but the use of liturgical "work" to a calander. Which by the way the CATHOLICS do. And by association it evil and corrupt. Look at the other Heathen faith of Orthodoxy and Copts they also have a liturgical Calander. Look at the extremely liberal Lutheran and Anglican churches they also have a works Calander. Its EVIL.

Hmmm...so since many of these churches have crosses, we should get rid of those. Or a chancel...no more chancels, just concrete walls. And since they observe communion, we need to stop that heathen practice as well.

The liturgical calendar, I will say again, is about participation with Christ in the important works of salvation history. It places Christ in His rightful place as the center of Christian worship.

To be honest, your theology reeks of paranoia and theological arrogance. The very fact that there are faithful evangelicals who come to a different conclusion cannot possibly sit well with you, since there is only one way and you know exactly what that one way is.

To be honest there are just about any many different baptist as there are denominations in the world. However, saved baptist understand they don't have to do a community work to be saved. And they know this because of Roman 4.

Saved? Saved? ("Saved" is an eschatological term, by the way, not a blanket term for justification.) So now I'm not saved because I choose to remember and participate in Christ's salvific works throughout the year?

You completely misunderstand this issue. You need to do some graduate level reading in church history and theology. I can recommend some great texts if you wish.

Ahhhhhhhh! Close your ears! Heresy!!!!!!!! Ahhhhhh!

Wow, Mr. Drama Queen - you're labeling a whole lot of evangelical Christians, even very conservative ones, as heretics.

Yeah I watch tv report the evils of the world to.

Do I sound like Tom Brokaw?