Atonement ‘made’ …WHERE?

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Again, the work of atonement was "finished" on the cross. It was PROVEN finished by the resurrection. It was PRESENTED as finished in heaven and it was DECLARED finished by Christ sitting down on the right hand of God taking the seven sealed book.

The work of atonement by the Second Person of the Godhead, as His covenant obligation in "the everlasting covenant" is finished. However, what is not finished is taking POSSESSION of what he has redeemed. What is not finished is the covenant obligations of the First and Third Person's of the Godhead in taking POSSESSION of those redeemed by Christ. The Father's work in drawing them is not finished. The Holy Spirit's Work in regenerating, sanctifying and glorifying them is not finished. But the Atoning work of Christ as our High Priest is FINISHED. Now its simply application by the Two other Covenant Parties and taking possession by the Lion of the tribe of Judah.

GE:

Re: BR, “…the work of atonement was "finished" on the cross”

Untrue! Jesus’ “SACRIFICE OF HIMSELF”, “was "finished" on the cross”.

Re: BR, “…the work of atonement was "finished" on the cross. It was PROVEN finished by the resurrection.”

Incorrect, and therefore, untrue!
Jesus’ “work of atonement was "finished"”, and “OFFERED / PRESENTED / BROUGHT”, “_BEFORE_ the LORD”, “by”, and in and with and through and AS He RESURRECTED— “_FROM_, the DEAD” and DEATH and GRAVE— FROM “the earth”— “FROM”, “the HEART of the earth”, and WHEN and AS and IN and WITH THAT: “God LOOSED the pains of DEATH.”
“The Lord is on my right hand … BECAUSE Thou wilt NOT LEAVE my soul IN HELL”.

Jesus’ “work of atonement was "finished"”, AS “the Lord hast MADE KNOWN to” Jesus, “ the ways of LIFE”, and “WITH THY COUNTENANCE”, hast made Him “_FULL_, of joy”. IN RAISING CHRIST FROM THE DEAD AND GRAVE.

Hebrews 10:5
“When He cometh into the world…”
THROUGH RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD,
“…He – God – saith, Sacrifice and offerings Thou wouldest not (anymore),
BUT: a (resurrected, glorified) body hast Thou prepared for Me … (…IN resurrection).”

Hebrews 10:7,9
“THEN said I, Lo, I HAVE COME (from the dead)
IN THE TO DO THY WILL, o God. …
THEN … He taketh away the first (DEATH)
to the establishing of the second (LIFE).

12This indeed ONE body / sacrifice HAVING SACRIFICED …
(‘houtos de mian (sohmatos) … prosenenkas’)
…for sins FOREVER
_HE SAT DOWN_
_ON THE RIGHT hand of God_.
18… NOW,
WHERE remission of sins and iniquities is (FINISHED),
THERE IS _NO MORE_ offering for sin.
19…Therefore…
…enter in into the HOLIEST (of the Sanctuary of GOD)…
…by the blood of Jesus…
20…by the NEW and LIVING WAY…
…which He (Christ) HAD consecrated (once for all and forever)…
…for us through the Veil…
…that is to say, through HIS FLESH”—
—“his flesh” RESURRECTED from the dead!

Hebrews 9:24,25
“For Christ is NOT entered into holy (places / a ‘holiest’)
even though in heaven itself
MADE WITH HANDS (some ‘physical building’),
but He appears NOW, IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD
on behalf of us;
nor is Christ entered into holy (places / a ‘holiest’)
that He should constantly sacrifice Himself
like as the (earthly) high priest enters in the holiest (of the earthly temple) year after year.”


I really thought I was answering Bob Ryan!

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
That is a good question.

In Calvinism's atonement, the Lev 16 teaching of scripture is tossed out the window and so for them atonement ends at the cross. The problem with that is that as soon as you admit that "not everyone is saved" then you are stuck with "limited atonement". There is no escaping it. And of course Calvinists hit Arminians with that point - all day long!

However in Lev 16 the Bible teaches that Atonement includes not ONLY the "atoning sacrifice" completed at the cross - but also the Lev 16 work of the High Priest in the sanctuary. That means that Christ's ongoing work for us as our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary - spoken of in great detail in the book of Hebrews decades after the cross -- is part of the Bible scope for the term "Atonement".

This is precisely the context that the Arminian argument for free will requires. As Arminians we need an UNLIMITED atoning sacrifice at the cross AND also a definition for "Atonement" that allows each person to choose to accept or reject the Gospel before the door of Atonement is closed.

Turns out the Bible had the correct model all along.

First, you do not interpret the atonement by Leviticus 16

Ahh the "so much Bible to ignore and so little time" strategy again?

Heb 8:1-4 tells us that the earthly system was patterened after the heavenly. The entire concept of "High Priest" comes to us from that earthly pattern.

Constantly tossing the Bible out the window when you do not like its teaching does not lead to better exegesis my friend.

Walter said -

Second, you have not answered my questions (as far as I can see anywhere). At what point in the work of Aaron on the day of atonement did he take a seat?

Heb 9 points out that all sacrifices collapse into the one sacrifice at the cross and so it follows that we find in that same chapter that all entry int the sanctuary from the altar of sacrifice collapses into one entry.

Christ functions in His role as our high priest "seated as Priest on His throne" as Zech 6 states - and was pointed out already. To see that post click here -
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1623043&postcount=22

And two posts later we see all the texts listed where Paul claims Christ is STILL working in heaven as our High Priest - decades after the cross (as the time of the writing of the book of Hebrews).
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1623055&postcount=23

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

[/I]
So then why do you get so bent out of shape when you find that the NIV claims that Christ provided the Biblical "Atoning Sacrifice" at the cross instead of opting for the greek pagan concept of appeasing an angry deity?

The J.W,'s use a particular translation that best supports their doctrine; you do the same. You choose and then pick the best translation which best suits your particular aberrant doctrine--not that it is the best translation (it isn't), it only suits your aberrant doctrine best. That kind of thinking, twisting of Scripture, deception, is sad, even cruel as it misleads others.

The propitiation, that legal satisfaction that Christ made on the cross that satisfied the demands God, was made on the cross. It was made and finished when Christ said in John 19:30, "It is finished." It is sad that you don't believe the Bible when it so clearly states that. The atonement was finished when Christ said it was--"It is finished."

If you are going to claim that Christ made atonement at the cross - you can hardly go on a crusade about how He did NOT make an atoning sacrifice at the cross.

I don't go on any crusade.
Christ said: "It is finished." You call him a liar. You say he isn't finished making an atonement. Who is the deceiver: Christ or Bob Ryan? I choose the latter, given the choice.

And Given that even the LXX makes this point in Ezek 44:27 with Hilasmos just as we see in 1John 2:2 and the NIV with Hilasmos -- why are you so worked up over it??

I am not the one worked up. You are the one that will not concentrate on one single passage of Scripture--1John 2:2. Instead of trying to properly define this Greek Word, you go to other translations and the Hebrew OT which uses another word completely, to try to justify your use and meaning of this word. That is the typical tactic of a cult. It certainly isn't sola scriptura, is it?
It is the avoidance of the text.
It is the avoidance of the context.
It is the avoidance of finding out the true meaning of the word.

It is as if you don't want to find out what the word "Propitiation" and "atonement" means. Is this right Bob?

 

[scriptmemory]

Walter wrote,

I am dropping this discussion with you because it is futile. It looks as you are brand new to the forum by the number of visits and so I welcome you to the forum.

It was made and finished when Christ said in John 19:30, "It is finished." It is sad that you don't believe the Bible when it so clearly states that. The atonement was finished when Christ said it was--"It is finished."

Walter said he was finished but then later became interested in starting in a new context with new duties and new information. I can understand that...sort of.

Jesus likewise said in John 17 - BEFORE CALVARY - "I have finished the work that thou gavest me to do", BEFORE the sins of the world were layed upon him. BEFORE He proclaimed "It is finished" just before death and and BEFORE He ascended to start the very necessary role of High priest to "make intercession for us."

Do we believe John 17:4, Jesus' "finished" work, before Calvary, was everything to unite us to God before Calvary as servant of our needs and revealer of God's character? If so, we deny Calvary and His work as sin-offering. Do we believe His work on Calvary when He cried "It is finished" as our sin bearer finished the plan of salvation apart from John 17:4 when He said "I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do"? No, or we deny the past John 17:4 of His earthly ministry and His future high-priestly intercession. Do we believe that the high-priest who ever liveth as long as time shall last "to make intercession for us" is the only part of the salvation process to bring us at-one with God again? No.

Finishing a task has to do with context—quite simple (which Walter's apparent indecision has helped illustrate-although I don't think that was planned as Christ's). The entire life of Christ was to destroy the works of the devil and to save His people from their sins during His role as servant of God and man, lamb and high priest. Take one part out and we don't have a complete salvation atonement.

All of Christ's roles have a finishing and ending point. To every thing there is a season.

God bless!

(P.S. I'm about to enter the "10 Posts Club". Will this help justify pay at the eleventh hour with those who have labored through the heat of the day? )

 

[BobRyan]

The J.W,'s use a particular translation that best supports their doctrine; you do the same.

oh no wait! The NIV is a JW Bible source?! Is that what you need to tell yourself???

hmmm. That is very instructive to the unbiased objective reader!

DHK said
The propitiation, that legal satisfaction that Christ made on the cross that satisfied the demands God, was made on the cross. It was made and finished when Christ said in John 19:30, "It is finished."

You admit that Atonement is made at the cross and then continue to whine that I claim that the NIV translates Hilasmos consistently with the OT texts in the LXX that ALSO assign the term atonement to it???

I find your logic illusive at that point.

Click the link SEE the use of Hilasmos consistent with the NIV before leaping off your cliff of ad hominem and pulpit-pounding.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1623956&postcount=66


In other words - make an argument based on Bible evidence to sustain your wild claim about NIV being in error when it says the Atoning Sacrifice was completed at the cross in 1John 2:2.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

Jesus likewise said in John 17 - BEFORE CALVARY - "I have finished the work that thou gavest me to do", BEFORE the sins of the world were layed upon him. BEFORE He proclaimed "It is finished" just before death and and BEFORE He ascended to start the very necessary role of High priest to "make intercession for us."

Context! Context is what every cultist ignores or twists to their own advantage. In John 17 he is speaking in a context of LIFE accomplishments (active obedience) whereas on the cross he is speaking in a context of SACRIFICIAL DEATH accomplishments (passive obedience). His life "glorified" or satisfied the righteous demands of the Law whereas his death "glorified" or satisfied the penalty of the law, as well as, the purchased price for the redemption of his people.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Either an atonement/satsifaction has been made or it is in progress. Either the righteous demands of the Law have been satisfied by Christ's life and death or they have not. Either he has purchased a people or he has not.

In John 17 he claimed that by his active LIVING OBEDIENCE the righteous standard of the Law has been satisfied and thus he had "sanctified" himself. On the cross he claimed that his passive DYING OBEDIENCE the righteous penalty of the Law had been satisfied and the scriptures repeatedly state that it satisfied God:

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

This satisfaction of God included satisfaction in behalf, or "for" a people as well, providing the PURCHASED PRICE of redemption:

Isa. 53 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all..

Hence, the atonement is SATISFACTION toward God, His righteousness against sin and it is a SATISFACTION for the REDEMPTIVE PRICE of a redeemed people.

 

[scriptmemory]

Context! Context is what every cultist ignores or twists to their own advantage. In John 17 he is speaking in a context of LIFE accomplishments (active obedience) whereas on the cross he is speaking in a context of SACRIFICIAL DEATH accomplishments (passive obedience). His life "glorified" or satisfied the righteous demands of the Law whereas his death "glorified" or satisfied the penalty of the law, as well as, the purchased price for the redemption of his people.

Agreed that John 17:4 is talking about how Christ's life was finished being prepared for a perfect sacrifice before the cross "without spot or blemish."

Why you are pretending to disagree with me on that point in the same breath as you agree is more than a little strange.

The sacrifice once-for-all to be applied in full to all who believe, repent and are baptized was finished at the cross and that phase was finished of John 19:30.

These are multiple phases in the plan of salvation to bring us at one with God. (Is. 59:2/Mt. 1:21/2 Cor. 5:19/Heb. 4:14) Just because you read "finished" in the Bible doesn't mean it's a war and not a battle.

Your claim there are no more aspects of Christ's work in restoring us to God past the "finishings" of Jn. 17:4 and Jn. 19:30 as part of the salvation process ignores the intercession of Christ and the Holy Spirit being poured out which are ministries made possible by His finished life (blood) and finished sacrifice (shed blood).

"He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it. And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation. Is. 25:8, 9

May God bless you.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Your claim there are no more aspects of Christ's work in restoring us to God past the "finishings" of Jn. 17:4 and Jn. 19:30 as part of the salvation process ignores the intercession of Christ and the Holy Spirit being poured out which are ministries made possible by His finished life (blood) and finished sacrifice (shed blood)

There are Three Person in the Godhead and each one has a covenant responsibility in the "everlasting covenant" of redemption. I believe you are confusing the covenant responsibility of Christ as our High Priest with the covenant responsibility of the Holy Spirit and the Father.

 

[scriptmemory]

Originally posted by Scriptmemory
Your claim there are no more aspects of Christ's work in restoring us to God past the "finishings" of Jn. 17:4 and Jn. 19:30 as part of the salvation process ignores the intercession of Christ and the Holy Spirit being poured out which are ministries made possible by His finished life (blood) and finished sacrifice (shed blood).

There are Three Person in the Godhead and each one has a covenant responsibility in the "everlasting covenant" of redemption. I believe you are confusing the covenant responsibility of Christ as our High Priest with the covenant responsibility of the Holy Spirit and the Father.

Yes there are Three Persons in the Godhead. Jesus was sent by and was submissive to the Father:

"I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me."
John 8:42

"I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things."
John 8:28

The Spirit is sent by and is submissive to Jesus in the same way Jesus is to the Father (a proof of the trinity doctrine as well):

"Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Epheisans 4:8

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come...he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you."
John 16:13, 14

Christ's ministry after the cross includes giving the spiritual gifts of Eph. 4:8 which Christ ascended to give to His church. (Lk. 11:13; 1 Cor. 12.)

May God bless you!

 

[Dr. Walter]

Christ's ministry after the cross includes giving the spiritual gifts of Eph. 4:8 which Christ ascended to give to His church. (Lk. 11:13; 1 Cor. 12.)

The key word here is "spiritual" and gifts are the ministry of the Holy Spirit as "another" conforter. The "everlasting covenant" is a "covenant" AGREEMENT with OBLIGATIONS between two or more Persons. The "everlasting" covenant is a covenant in eternity between the Three Persons of the Godhead.

The covenant obligation of the Son in the "everlasting" covenant is the High Preistly work of providing the price of redemption (appropriate satisfaction for redemption). The covenant obligation of the Spirit in the "everlasting" covenant is the APPLICATION WORK to the redeemed. The Father's work is electing and giving a people unto the Son to redeem and the Holy Spirit to apply that redemption (Eph. 1:1-13; Jn. 6:37-38; 44-45; 64-65; 17:2).

 

[scriptmemory]

Reftagger by Logos: http://www.logos.com/reftagger is a free javascript plug-in that would allow any reader to hover their mouse pointer over references posted and see a pop-up of the verse which goes away when the mouse moves from the text. Major time saver. I wish this would be included in this site's source files.

May God bless you!

 

[BobRyan]

to Walter -

Your claim there are no more aspects of Christ's work in restoring us to God past the "finishings" of Jn. 17:4 and Jn. 19:30 as part of the salvation process ignores the intercession of Christ and the Holy Spirit being poured out which are ministries made possible by His finished life (blood) and finished sacrifice (shed blood).

Good point.

In 1 Timothy 2:5 - Christ as our High Priest is the "one Mediator between God and man".

In 1John 2:2 Christ as our High Priest is "our Advocate with God" in the heavenly sanctuary - for those case when we sin.

And Christ provides a number of benefit in the plan of salvation in continued His role as High Priest - as Paul points out in the book of Hebrews where Paul admits that Christ continues to operate in that role.

One simple example of that is found in Heb 7

24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.
25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Either an atonement/satsifaction has been made or it is in progress.

In 1John 2:2 we find that the expiatory aspect of Atonement -- the "Atoning Sacrifice" was completed at the cross.

Full "satisfaction" at the cross.

Demands of the law fully met at the cross

Perfect righteous standard of the Law - fully met. Born under the Law and yet a perfect sacrifice as we see in Galatians 4.


He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.


Thus at the cross - He is the "Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".

Those who delete God's Word in Lev 16 from their minds and limit to the aspect of expiation and satisfaction - must conclude that all their limited scope of atonement is fully completed at the cross. There is no way around it.

Hence the warning flag for Aminians not to follow the Calvinists down that blind alley. Much better in the Arminian POV to aLLOW for God's Word in Lev 16 that includes the work of Christ as High Priest in the "scope" for atonement. And in so doing - it allows for the "Whosoever will" of the Gospel to be included in that opend door for atonement.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

In 1John 2:2 we find that the expiatory aspect of Atonement -- the "Atoning Sacrifice" was completed at the cross.

Full "satisfaction" at the cross.

Demands of the law fully met at the cross

Perfect righteous standard of the Law - fully met. Born under the Law and yet a perfect sacrifice as we see in Galatians 4.


He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.


Thus at the cross - He is the "Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".QUOTE]

Notice that "justify many" is directly associated with the satisfaction on the cross in regard to bearing "their iniquities."

 

[BobRyan]

Paul is pretty good about showing the sequence for salvation in Romans 10.

Romans 10

8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Justification happens IN the person's life while they actually are alive -- at the moment they place their faith in Christ.

In Romans 5:1 "Having been justified by FAITH" is a reference to the faith of the Believer in Christ in real life - not a reference to Christ having faith in the believer.



in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

In 1John 2:2 we find that the expiatory aspect of Atonement -- the "Atoning Sacrifice" was completed at the cross.

Full "satisfaction" at the cross.

Demands of the law fully met at the cross

Perfect righteous standard of the Law - fully met. Born under the Law and yet a perfect sacrifice as we see in Galatians 4.


He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.


Thus at the cross - He is the "Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".

Those who delete God's Word in Lev 16 from their minds and limit to the aspect of expiation and satisfaction - must conclude that all their limited scope of atonement is fully completed at the cross. There is no way around it.

Hence the warning flag for Aminians not to follow the Calvinists down that blind alley. Much better in the Arminian POV to aLLOW for God's Word in Lev 16 that includes the work of Christ as High Priest in the "scope" for atonement. And in so doing - it allows for the "Whosoever will" of the Gospel to be included in that opend door for atonement.

in Christ,

Bob

GE:

Which fully nullifies "atonement ... fully completed at the cross", invalidates it, completely destroying its 'satisfaction' BY THE MERE 'FACT' OF BOB RYAN'S PRESUMPTION that Jesus 'made sacrifice' WHILE NOT HIGH PRIEST and not even 'priest'!

ANY further discussion is futile!

And this blasphemous presumption of Bob Ryan's is BASED on his other blasphemous presumption that Jesus DIED MERE MAN.

Which presumption of his again, is based on his denial of the REAL 'SANCTUARY' of God which is Christ Jesus --- "God with us" "tabernacled".

There remains NO SINGLE ERROR or aspect of ERROR not due to the SDA HERESY of an 'investigative judgment'.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Paul is pretty good about showing the sequence for salvation in Romans 10.

Romans 10

8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Justification happens IN the person's life while they actually are alive -- at the moment they place their faith in Christ.

In Romans 5:1 "Having been justified by FAITH" is a reference to the faith of the Believer in Christ in real life - not a reference to Christ having faith in the believer.



in Christ,

Bob

GE:

Bob Ryan shall NEVER admit that Paul from before he started writing this, was of the sure conviction of GOD'S INITIATIVE BEFORE anyone would ever believe or confess. But no, for Bob Ryan, God plays the last drum roll; no more.

He couldn't dream his beloved Sabbath doctrine contradicts his doctrine of free will because the Sabbath-truth departs from GOD being the AUTHOR and Finisher of faith He being Sovereign CREATOR "IN THE BEGINNING", so that no one is able to "confess with mouth Jesus as Lord", or "believe in / with heart that God raised Him from the dead" or "will be saved". "For with the heart" newly created by God, "a person believes" , the work of CHRIST "_RECKONED_ unto righteousness" which by the work of the HOLY SPIRIT is effected in the perseverence of the saint(s). And by the irresistible grace of the Holy Spirirt operating in the heart of a person, "with the mouth he confesses", resulting in salvation wholly wrought by God only alone and by Himself. "For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM..." _IN HIM_" --- that is, "IN GOD" and BY Him and to HIS will --- "WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

"Justification happens", TO someone, "IN the person's life", "at the moment" he - through the operation of the Holy Spirit in him BEFORE AND WHILE he 'places his faith in Christ'.

In Romans 5:1 "Having been justified by FAITH" is a reference to the faith of the Believer in Christ in real life - not a reference to Christ having faith in the believer" --- INDEED! EXACTLY! But does Bob Ryan hear himself? As deaf as a clay-ox! “OF THE BELIEVER” Bob Ryan— “OF THE BELIEVER”!

You think he was born like that --- developed into a ‘believer’; improved himself with ‘faith’?!

 

[DHK]

oh no wait! The NIV is a JW Bible source?! Is that what you need to tell yourself???

If the NIV makes a translation that is similar in nature to the NWT, then what is the difference? Why not just follow the NWT, Bob? It too is a cult.

hmmm. That is very instructive to the unbiased objective reader!

Yes it is instructive. It shows that the KJV has a much more accurate translation than the NIV.

You admit that Atonement is made at the cross and then continue to whine that I claim that the NIV translates Hilasmos consistently with the OT texts in the LXX that ALSO assign the term atonement to it???

1. The LXX is simply a translation, and a poor one at that.
2. The NIV, as noted, is also a poor translation.
3. OT texts used Hebrew words not Greek words, thus your comparisons are not worth a hill of beans.

I find your logic illusive at that point.

Whose logic???

Click the link SEE the use of Hilasmos consistent with the NIV before leaping off your cliff of ad hominem and pulpit-pounding.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1623956&postcount=66

Oh, you mean the link where I already showed you the same information and showed you how you were wrong. You wouldn't believe me then. So you are not going to believe me here either. That is correct. I know.

In other words - make an argument based on Bible evidence to sustain your wild claim about NIV being in error when it says the Atoning Sacrifice was completed at the cross in 1John 2:2.

Try the word "propitiation" as it is translated in many other translations, and "satisfaction" in still others. Find out what it means. Then you will find out why you are so off base in your theology. You don't even know the meaning of the word "atonement," much less "propitiation."

 

[Dr. Walter]

Paul is pretty good about showing the sequence for salvation in Romans 10.

Romans 10

8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Justification happens IN the person's life while they actually are alive -- at the moment they place their faith in Christ.

In Romans 5:1 "Having been justified by FAITH" is a reference to the faith of the Believer in Christ in real life - not a reference to Christ having faith in the believer.



in Christ,

Bob

My point exactly! That is why the cross is the highly priestly work of Christ as a "satisfaction" in Isaiah 53. Hebrews 9:12 says that Christ PRIOR TO ENTERING into heaven has already "having obtained eternal redemption for us." His blood SATISFIED the PURCHASE price for all that the Father gave him (Jn. 17:2; 6:37-38). That purchased price SATISFIED the righteousness demanded by the Law. That purchased price SATISFIED the penalty against sin demanded by the Law. It is both a SATISFACTION for remission of sins and

Rom. 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption [Gr. apolutrosis] that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation[Gr. Hilasterion] through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Heb. 9:12 -Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained [Aorist tense completed action] eternal redemption [Gr. lutrosis] for us.

The "redemption" "propitiation" was obtained, finished action prior to Christ entering into heaven. A comparison between Isa 53, Rom. 3:24-25 and Heb. 9:12 and the terms used to describe the cross demand that nothing in heaven is being redeemed, cleansed, or purchased but that has already been accomplished. What Christ is doing in heaven is sitting on the throne and simply taking possession by ruling over the events of this world and bringing all things to a climax. He is taking possession to what He has already purchased through satisfaction by the cross. It is the Holy Spirit that is applying the redemption in space and time. All the texts that you quote in Hebrews have reference to the Holy Spirit acting in behalf of Christ upon earth in regard to application of obtained redemption to his people. The obtained redemption is "eternal redemption" and therefore His High Priestoood is "eternal" as the "covenant" of redmeption is an "everlasting covenant" (Heb. 13:20). You are confusing Covenant provision with Covenant application and you are confusing the 2nd Person's Covenant obligations with the 3rd Person's obligations.