Atonement ‘made’ …WHERE?

[Dr. Walter]

Details "in the text" debunking your claims:

1. No mention of "ten kingoms arise after the final hour" in Dan 7.
2. At the time of John the division of Rome into 10 had not taken place yet.

3. The 1260 years of Dan 7 are never said to happen in "one hour" in all of scripture.

And historically - everybody knows that the pagan Roman empire fell before the dark ages.

Your response makes no sense! Where did I say "ten kingdoms arise AFTER the final hour"???????

The "ten toes" in Daniel 2 are identical with the "ten horns" in Daniel 7 and in Revelation 17:12:

Rev. 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

That "one hour with the beast" includes the battle of Armageddon when Christ defeats him:

Rev. 17:14 ¶ These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.....Rev. 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Daniel 8 refers to the Grecian not the Persian or the Roman kingdom and to temple on earth not in heaven and to the "daily" sacrifice and not 2300 years.

 

[BobRyan]

So far in my review of Hebrews and the High Priestly role of Christ I have shown that the Lev 16 concept of Atonement goes BEYOND vs 9 (Lev 16:9) where the sin offering is slain. The chapters does not end there.

It continues with the work of the High Priest in the Sanctuary.

2. Then I show that Heb 8 points to Christ as starting His High Priestly role for us in heaven's antitypical Sanctuary - at His ascension. Noting that the text says that "If He were on earth He would NOT be a priest at all". Heb 8:4

3. And a side note was added that by expanding the Atonement concept to include BOTH the work of Christ at the cross AND the work of Christ in heaven as our High Priest - the limited-atonement argument for Calvinism is no longer a way to argue for arbitrary selection with Arminians.

So while the points are favorable to the Arminian POV so far - they have yet to be "distinctly Seventh-day Adventist". But fear not - that part is coming soon.

But first note that in Dan 9 you have the 70 week prophecy (vs2 4) - (490 years in Daniel's day for a year model) - pointing down to the coming of "Messiah the Prince" (vs 25). This predicts the first coming of Christ (annointed at His baptism for ministry) - and it also predicts his 3 and a half year minstry after which He was "cut off" - crucified.

The fact that Daniel is using a day for a year ruler in his vision is accepted by almost every denomination on the planet.

But later "innexplicably" Walter said

This is so absudly rediculous that only a cultist would believe that Christ did not enter the temple in heaven at his ascenion but waited until 1843 to start a cleansing in heaven.

Was that just another one of your practice runs at ranting and nonsequitters or do you not understand the text in my post highlighted above?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

I show that Heb 8 points to Christ as starting His High Priestly role for us in heaven's antitypical Sanctuary - at His ascension.

The work of our High Preist in heaven is presented as FINISHED and it is upon the basis of that FINISHED work he is SEATED on the throne IN ORDER TO take possession of what is His by right because of His FINISHED work. He has presented himself in heaven as the rightful heir of all creation based upon his FINISHED atonement. Now the heir is SEATED on the "throne" which explains his role now in heaven as one who is RULING and TAKING POSSESSION of what he has already purchased and owns but has not taken complete possession of as of yet.

The Holy Spirit as the "Spirit of Christ" is applying that FINISHED work UPON EARTH in keeping with Christ' FINISHED work presented in heaven and Jesus is SEATED upon the Throne to rebuke Satan, hell and high waters from false accusations, attempts to claim jump or attempts to derail Christ from taking possession of what is His by right of a FINISHED redemption. Christ as our High Priest is now TAKING POSSESSION of what is His by rights of a FINISHED redemption and this is signified by the Seven sealed book in his right hand.

He is not up in heaven as a house keeper trying clean up any mess in the heavenly sanctuary. He is not there TRYING his best to save what he has purchased and owns. He is ruling and directing the Holy Spirit as one "sent" by Him and the Father to possess, protect and preserve and apply what is His by right of a FINISHED redemption.

The so-called cultic cleansing of the heavenly temple is absolute spiritual garbage not to be beleived by anyone that can read a Bible.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
The 1260 years of Dan 7 start AFTER the fall of the Roman empire and the rise of the Papacy - the "little horn" power that uproots three of the dividing germanic tribes that split up Rome.

Then innexplicably Walter said in response to the Daniel 7 details above --

Walter said
How nice that you can use your imagination to make up things as you go! You have no Biblical facts to sustain anythng you have said.

1. So you are now converting "1260 days" into "one hour"???

2. The Germanic tribes cannot possibly be the "ten toes" or the "ten" kings before the Dark Ages because John specifically states that have not arisen in his time and will not arise until the final "hour."

As if that is some kind of analysis of Dan 7 -- so I then provide the Dan 7 text

Dan 7
17 "These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth.
18 "But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.'
19 ""Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet,
20 and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and which was larger in appearance than its associates.

21 ""I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.
==============

And I add this note --

Details "in the text" debunking your claims:

1. In 1John 2:18 John does say that all of the NT era is "the final hour" - so that is 2000 years so far, not sure how you imagine this to help your case.
2. At the time of John the division of Rome into 10 had not taken place yet.
3. The 1260 years of Dan 7 are never said to happen in "one hour" in all of scripture, nor does John claim such a thing.

And historically - everybody knows that the pagan Roman empire fell before the dark ages and that in the dark ages the saints are persecuted even after the fall of pagan Rome - for centuries - not for 3.5 years -- thus the consistent day for year model in Dan 7, 8, 9.

This just could not be any easier.

--------------------------------

Walter then responds with

Your response makes no sense! Where did I say "ten kingdoms arise AFTER the final hour"???????

The "ten toes" in Daniel 2 are identical with the "ten horns" in Daniel 7 and in Revelation 17:12:

1. The is no "ten toes" focus in Daniel 2 and the toes mentioned are not equivalent to Pagan Rome in Dan 7 or to the division of Pagan Rome prior to the time of Papal Rome. In other words - Dan 2 does not give the level of detail that you find in Dan 7. Each vision is adding detail.

2. The Iron of Daniel 2 is the 4th empire (Rome: -- not the Iron mixed with Clay).

3. When pagan Rome collapses and then Papal Rome arises you have the "iron mixed with clay" - but prior to that time Rome divided into the ten kingdoms because Papal Rome uproots 3 of those ten to begin its 1260 year domination of the saints.

Walter said -

Rev. 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

That "one hour with the beast" includes the battle of Armageddon when Christ defeats him:

1. Daniel is not writing at the time of John the revelator.
2. When John writes in 1John 2 he says "it is the last hour".
3. John is living at a time BEFORE the Ten divisions of pagan Rome.
4. In John's day ONE of the 4 empires listed in Dan 7 and Dan 2 is STILL in full power. The Iron of Dan 2, and the terrifying beast of Dan 7:7 - pagan Rome.

5. Innexplicably you choose to jump ahead to Rev 17 -- There John gives a time context reference by telling the reader that the 7 heads are seven kingdoms - "five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come" -- thus the point of reference John gives is not that of Daniel nor even a point in time for his own generation - but a point in the future even to his own generation.

Your efforts to mix in Rev 17 with Dan 7 just because you don't like the details in Dan 7 - do not work.

Walter said -
Daniel 8 refers to the Grecian not the Persian or the Roman kingdom and to temple on earth not in heaven and to the "daily" sacrifice and not 2300 years.

Whuhuh!!???

Dan 8
20 "The ram which you saw with the two horns represents the kings of Media and Persia.
21 "The shaggy goat represents the kingdom of Greece, and the large horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

Stick with the text. Your efforts to jump to other books do not help you with the inconvenient details in the text at hand.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The work of our High Preist in heaven is presented as FINISHED

That I idea was debunked -- Page 1
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1622693&postcount=6

Where we see in text after text that Paul claims Christ was still engaged in his High Priestly role in heaven at the time of the writing of the letter of Hebrews.

The idea that Christ is not now engaged in His Ministry in Heaven as our High Priest - was debunked again here - only in more detail.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1623055&postcount=23

Instead of responding to the details in the text of Hebrews quotes above that so totally disconfirm your claims - you merely repeat the claims.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Daniel 8:14 is not the same Hebrew structure found in Genesis 1:5.

1. Daniel 8:14 reads "boqer erev"

2. Genes 1:5 reads "boqer hayah erev hayah"

Moreover, Genesis 1:5 structure always includes the Hebrew term "yom" or "day" and not "tamyid" (daily). Daniel 8:14 does not include the term "yom" but only "tamyid"

As you were shown already

1. - the LXX refutes your view,
2. Your idea that Ex 29:38-39 uses the same "Evening and morning" formula as Dan 8 collapsed entirely.
3. And now we have seen a number of other Bible scholars (all non-SDA) admitting to the obvious fact that the 2300 evening mornings of Dan 8 are to be taken as 2300 days.

As you were shown - the text of Dan 8 does not used your much hoped for "morning and evening" formula in Ex 29 - that you claimed to be the "Evening and morning" formula we find in Dan 8:14. And even the LXX emphasis this point that the Dan 8:14 text indicates 2300 days.

So also do non-SDA bible scholars agree with the LXX and the reading of Dan 8 in the Hebrew text -

Adam Clarke –
Verse 14. Unto two thousand and three hundred days
Though literally it be two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings. Yet I think the prophetic day should be understood here, as in other parts of this prophet, and must signify so many years. If we date these years from the vision of the he-goat, (Alexander's invading Asia,) this was A.M. 3670, B.C. 334; and two thousand three hundred years from that time

John Gill

unto two thousand and three hundred days;
or so many "mornings" and "evenings" F8; which shows that not so many years, as Jacchiades, and others, are meant; but natural days, consisting of twenty four hours, and which make six years, three months, and eighteen days;

Geneva Study Bible
8:14 And z he said unto me, Unto a two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
(z) Christ answered me for the comfort of the Church.
(a) That is, until so many natural days have passed, which make six years, and three and a half months:

Matthew Henry
(2.) The answer given to this question, Daniel 8:14. Christ gives instruction to the holy angels, for they are our fellow-servants; but here the answer was given to Daniel, because for his sake the question was asked: He said unto me. God sometimes gives in great favours to his people, in answer to the enquiries and requests of their friends for them. Now, [1.] Christ assures him that the trouble shall end; it shall continue 2300 days and no longer, so many evenings and mornings (so the word is),

You can keep repeating your assertions no matter the Bible evidence to the contrary, if you like.

As already noted

The simple fact is that the 2300 evening mornings of Dan 8:14 are 2300 prophetic days just like the 70 weeks of Dan 9 are 490 prophetic days which expand out to 490 years in the OT "Day for year" model seen in Dan 9 and Num 14:32-34 AND Ezek 4:5-6.

So we have 1260 years in Dan 7 "Times Time and half a time" (3.5 years of 12 months each, 30 prophetic days per month).
We have 2300 years in Dan 8's "2300 evening mornings"
and we have 490 years in Dan 9's 70 weeks.

Consistency - what a joy.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

And I add this note --

Details "in the text" debunking your claims:

1. In 1John 2:18 John does say that all of the NT era is "the final hour" - so that is 2000 years so far, not sure how you imagine this to help your case.

What a messed up and confused mind you have and no wonder the way you perversely deal with scriptures. You cannot honestly jerk 1 John 2:18 and insert it into Revelation 17!!!!!!!!!!! John is talking about many antrichrist in the present hour of his day (first century) in 1 John but in Revelation he is talking something beyond his time (which you admit in #2 below) that is called the final "hour" when the ten kings and beast wage war with Christ at Armageddon.

2. At the time of John the division of Rome into 10 had not taken place yet.
3. The 1260 years of Dan 7 are never said to happen in "one hour" in all of scripture, nor does John claim such a thing.

You are following the eschatalogical teaching of a demon inspired woman and that is why you cannot see that the battle in Revelation 17 between Christ and the Antichrist at the final "hour" of this age is also the very same battle described in Daniel 7:21-22,26,27 when Christ comes with the saints and puts down the antichrist:

Dan. 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise:

Rev. 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast

And historically - everybody knows that the pagan Roman empire fell before the dark ages and that in the dark ages the saints are persecuted even after the fall of pagan Rome - for centuries - not for 3.5 years -- thus the consistent day for year model in Dan 7, 8, 9.

Certainly pagan Rome fell before the Dark ages but the split of the image into two legs present the split in Religious Rome into the Eastern and Western Empires that continue up to the coming of Christ when "ten toes" or "ten kings" join with the antichrist at the battle of Armageddon against Christ.

1. The is no "ten toes" focus in Daniel 2 and the toes mentioned are not equivalent to Pagan Rome in Dan 7 or to the division of Pagan Rome prior to the time of Papal Rome. In other words - Dan 2 does not give the level of detail that you find in Dan 7. Each vision is adding detail.

The ten toes in Daniel two after the split of the Easter and Western legs of Religious Romam Empire are the same "ten horns" on the fourth beast who in Daniel 7:20 join in with the Beast and are the same "ten horns" in Revelation 7:12 that join in the with the Beast.

3. When pagan Rome collapses and then Papal Rome arises you have the "iron mixed with clay" - but prior to that time Rome divided into the ten kingdoms because Papal Rome uproots 3 of those ten to begin its 1260 year domination of the saints.

Not so! The collapse of the Secular Roman Empire occurs where the trunk of the waist splits into two legs. The two legs are the division of the RELIGIOUS Roman Empire into its Eastern and Western Divisions and the ten toes mixed with iron and clay are the final ten kings from out of these divisions that rise to power with the Antichrist at the end of this age yet in the future when they fight Christ at Armageddon.

1. Daniel is not writing at the time of John the revelator.

But John is interpeting Daniel and I will go with John's inspired interpretation of Daniel rather than with the demon led Ellen G. White interpretation (and her lying prophetic fruits demonstrate she is demon led).

2. When John writes in 1John 2 he says "it is the last hour".

John is talking about the FIRST CENTURY or the present "hour" in which he lives and about MANY antichrists at large in first John. In Revelation 17:12, even as you admit, he is talking about something future from his own time and he pin points that time as the final "hour" of this age when Armgeddon occurs as a battle between Christ and these ten kings with the beast or final antichrist.

Dan 8
20 "The ram which you saw with the two horns represents the kings of Media and Persia.
21 "The shaggy goat represents the kingdom of Greece, and the large horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

Stick with the text. Your efforts to jump to other books do not help you with the inconvenient details in the text at hand.

My oh my what profound display of ignorance! The ram was defeated prior to verse 14 in verses 3-7. It is the four divisions or four generals of Alexander the Great that are in view in verse 8 and in verses 9-14 it is Antiochus Epiphanes that is in view. Read verses 21-24 and you will see that it is you that has departed from the text:

21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

When shall this dark person arise? Answer - "IN THE LATTER TIME OF THEIR KINGDOM"

Whose KINGDOM? The GRECIAN KINGDOM - "The king of Grecia....four kingdoms stand up out of THE NATION......IN THE LATTER TIME OF THEIR KINGDOM"

Not the Persian or Roman kingdom!!!!!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I'm sorry; but as soon as ANYONE --- SDA or Dr Walter --- starts 'prophecy', they loose me .... for one.

No, let the future and the prophecies old and future, to God to fulfill.

I only know Christ shall come again and THAT DAY shall be the end of SIN and the first day of a New Heaven and a New Earth wherein Righteousness dwells : "THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS" : "God with us" in Jesus Christ FOREVER!

 

[scriptmemory]

Walter says,

"You are following the eschatalogical teaching of a demon inspired woman"

and later,

"rather than with the demon led Ellen G. White interpretation (and her lying prophetic fruits demonstrate she is demon led)."

However sensational, these accusations have no bearing on the discussion at hand. I had a personal experience with this when I once dared to disagree with an elder at a Bible study. I didn't know the elder and he didn't know me, but in frustration when he couldn't answer a question he could have just as easily ignored he began to analyze me and my history which he knew almost nothing about. He succeeded temporarily to divert from the facts of the text. I have seen this tactic used by others and it is a time-waster.

Just noticing that Bob has presented no evidence but from Scripture and well-known Bible commentators. Bob has not used EGW's writings or words to sustain any doctrines in this or any thread on this board that I have read. Let's use our time wisely.

God bless!

 

[Dr. Walter]

Walter says,
and later,


However sensational, these accusations have no bearing on the discussion at hand. I had a personal experience with this when I once dared to disagree with an elder at a Bible study. I didn't know the elder and he didn't know me, but in frustration when he couldn't answer a question he could have just as easily ignored he began to analyze me and my history which he knew almost nothing about. He succeeded temporarily to divert from the facts of the text. I have seen this tactic used by others and it is a time-waster.

Just noticing that Bob has presented no evidence but from Scripture and well-known Bible commentators. Bob has not used EGW's writings or words to sustain any doctrines in this or any thread on this board that I have read. Let's use our time wisely.

God bless!

False prophets have demons as the origin of their doctrines (1 Tim. 4:1; 1 Jn. 4:1) and Mrs. White is a thoroughly well documented false prophet. Bob's so-called Biblical arguments are nothing but parroting of Mrs. White's teaching and anyone who has read Mrs. White's teaching on this subject can easily see that. Bob is not using Scripture, but abusing it to support his false prophet. Lump it or like it that is the reality and if you think not, then simply pick up Mrs. White's teaching on this subject and you will not find one iota difference. Bob is following Mrs. White's line of thinking, a proven false prophet, and false prophets obtain their leadership from demons not God.

Now some don't like exposing Mrs. White for what she is or her followers for what they are but that is not my problem, it is simply the plain truth that can be easily well documented as I have already done in part.

 

[DHK]

1John 2 NIV - Strongs 2434: Hilasmos
2 and He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

“Atoning Sacrifice” NIV (Strongs 2434: Greek: Hilasmos

It has been suggested that the NIV translators "got that wrong" and that the Greek term Hilasmos is talking more about appeasing an angry deity (propitiation) and not atonement (God so loved that He gave). I for one am not often fond of quoting the NIV myself - but I would never argue that just because they are wrong in some areas - that every word they translate is in error. So let us see if they are correct on the subject of Hilasmos.

========================================



Lev 25:9 Hilasmos – “Atonement”

kjv: 9Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of the jubile to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement shall ye make the trumpet sound throughout all your land.


NASB: 9'You shall then sound a ram's horn abroad on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the day of atonement you shall sound a horn all through your land.



Ezek 44:27 – Septuagint “Sin Offering” (Strongs 2434 root word: Hilasmos

27And in the day that he goeth into the sanctuary, unto the inner court, to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering, saith the Lord GOD.


Ezek 45:20 “Make Atonement” Kaphar (Heb) (strongs 2433 Hilaskomai -- hilaskomai (the verb), from which hilasmos and hilasterion are derived

45:20
NIV: 20 You are to do the same on the seventh day of the month for anyone who sins unintentionally or through ignorance; so you are to make atonement for the temple.

Holman: 20 You must do the same thing on the seventh [day] of the month for everyone who sins unintentionally or through ignorance. In this way you will make atonement for the temple


NASB: 20"Thus you shall do on the seventh day of the month for everyone who goes astray or is naive; so you shall make atonement for the house.

----

The point remains.

in Christ,

Bob

What point Bob? In 1John 2:2 a Greek word for propitiation is used which means satisfaction.
You respond by quoting from the OT Hebrew which does not use Greek. What nonsense is this? The Day of Atonement has nothing to do with 1John 2:2. Your argument is self-defeating. I don't suggest that the translaor's (most of them) got it wrong. You did. It is not what the NT testament either says or means. The propitiation spoken of in 1John 2:2 is the legal satisfaction that Christ made on the Cross to satisfy the demands of God that the penalty of our sins had been paid in full. Context gives meaning. The OT does not, and neither does Bob Ryan.

 

[BobRyan]

DHK you need to "pick a lane". Either you admit that the atonement was made at the cross or you think that is error and that only "appeasement" was made at the cross.

In the atonement model "God so loved the World that He gave".

In the propitiation-appeasement model - Christ so suffered that the angry deity was asuaged.

You seem to argue that atonement does not allow for your idea of propitiation (and thus that the NIV "Atoning Sacrifice" rendering is horribly wrong for hilasmos) so you are apparently leaping off the cliff of the pagan idea of appeasing the angry deity.

But in that case you would be arguing against the idea of atonement at the cross. (Are you really thinking this through or is this another one of your "whatever BobRyan says -- not" lines of argument??)

Maybe more time thinking about it in your case would be helpful.

Meanwhile the texts in the post you pretend not to understand show the use of the same word in 1John 2:2 being used for atonement.

The point remains -- obviously.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Walter said -

Rev. 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

That "one hour with the beast" includes the battle of Armageddon when Christ defeats him:

BobRyan said
1. Daniel is not writing at the time of John the revelator.
2. When John writes in 1John 2 he says "it is the last hour".
3. John is living at a time BEFORE the Ten divisions of pagan Rome.
4. In John's day ONE of the 4 empires listed in Dan 7 and Dan 2 is STILL in full power. The Iron of Dan 2, and the terrifying beast of Dan 7:7 - pagan Rome.

5. Innexplicably you choose to jump ahead to Rev 17 -- There John gives a time context reference by telling the reader that the 7 heads are seven kingdoms - "five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come" -- thus the point of reference John gives is not that of Daniel nor even a point in time for his own generation - but a point in the future even to his own generation.

Your efforts to mix in Rev 17 with Dan 7 just because you don't like the details in Dan 7 - do not work.

What a messed up and confused mind you have and no wonder the way you perversely deal with scriptures. You cannot honestly jerk 1 John 2:18 and insert it into Revelation 17!!!!!!!!!!! John is talking about many antrichrist in the present hour of his day (first century)

Since you are using nothing but ad hominem as the "evidence" in favor of your wild claim - I assume you do not intend us to take your concusion seriously.

And to confirm this fact - you innexplicably turn around and admit that John is referencing a point beyond his time.

Walter said
in Revelation he is talking something beyond his time (which you admit in #2 below) that is called the final "hour" when the ten kings and beast wage war with Christ at Armageddon.

Your confusion is apparent at that point. Interestingly you try to avoid the context of Rev 17:9-11 whenever you quote Rev 17:12.

9 "" Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits,
10 ""and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.
11 ""The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.


As noted - this takes us beyond the 4 kingdoms of Daniel 7. It takes us to a point where 5 have fallen -- which means that the little horn power of Dan 7 had received what Rev 13 calls "a deadly wound".

Your efforts to add even more apocalyptic details to the direct straightforward scenario of Dan 7 would be helpful if you were accepting the obvious points of Dan 7 and moving on - but you seem to be looking for every means possible not to get the basic details as you then pile on more details which you misalign as well based on paying so little attention to the details of Dan 7 and 8.

In Dan 7 the Roman power and the Greek power are future - so also the ten divisions of pagan Rome and the papacy and the dark ages.

In Rev 17 John takes us forward to a time when Rome had fallen and the papacy had received the Rev 13 "deadly wound" already - and then predicts that from that point of reference - there was coming a future time when the 10 kingdoms would be revived to receive power for "an hour".

In Dan 7 the saints are not "persecuted for an hour" but for 1260 years.

Your efforts to mix the two did not help your solution.

Walter said
Certainly pagan Rome fell before the Dark ages but the split of the image into two legs present the split in Religious Rome

Your glossing over the details of Dan 7 and of history missed entirely the division of the Roman state into 10 and the rise of the little horn power (the papacy) and the start of the 1260 years of domination of the little horn power, inserting false doctrine and overpowering the saints.

Dan 2 does not get into that level of detail and the ten toes of Dan 2 are added to the feet which are already "partly of clay and partly of iron" which is the divided and fallen state of the pagan Roman empire.

In fact the legs begin "as two" -- pagan Rome did not start out as the split religious world of 1000 A.D. Pagan Rome was long gone by then.

You cannot push the details of Dan 7 into Dan 2 as if Dan 2 had the same level of detail when it covers that period of history.

Rather details are ADDED starting with Dan 2 then 7 then 8 and then 9.

Your error is clearly stated here -

Walter said -
The collapse of the Secular Roman Empire occurs where the trunk of the waist splits into two legs. The two legs are the division of the RELIGIOUS Roman Empire into its Eastern and Western Divisions

Dan 2:32 Belly and thighs of Bronze (Greece) and not a claim that Greece was split into two thighs.

Dan 2:33 "LEGS of Iron" -- (pagan Rome) and not a claim that pagan Rome was a two part empire.

Your view that the "Legs of Iron" represent FALLEN pagan Roman empire at the time when the Papal Romans empire split -- as being the START of Rome taking over Greece (belly and thighs) could never be accepted by the serious student of history or the Bible.

Why do you go to such an extreme?

Walter said

My oh my what profound display of ignorance! The ram was defeated prior to verse 14 in verses 3-7. It is the four divisions or four generals of Alexander the Great that are in view in verse 8 and in verses 9-14 it is Antiochus Epiphanes that is in view. Read verses 21-24 and you will see that it is you that has departed from the text:

Hint - the vision of Daniel 8 starts in vs 3 where the Ram is "standing" not fallen. And Dan 8:20 states that the Ram is Persia and Media. In vs 4 the Ram is in power conquering in the directions of West, North and South and no one is able to stand against him.

The question is "How long is the VISION" and clearly the vision STARTS in vs 3 with a dominate Persian empire.

Again this is just stating the simple obvious facts IN the text itself. Not sure why you are so insistent upon denying the basic details so easily referenced and seen in the text!

What kind of strategy is that?

Walter said -

21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

When shall this dark person arise? Answer - "IN THE LATTER TIME OF THEIR KINGDOM"

Whose KINGDOM? The GRECIAN KINGDOM - "The king of Grecia....four kingdoms stand up out of THE NATION......IN THE LATTER TIME OF THEIR KINGDOM" Not the Persian or Roman kingdom!!!!!

Hint: The fierce and powerful ("his power shall be mighty") little horn of Dan 8 is the same little horn of Dan 7.

8 Then the male goat magnified himself exceedingly. But as soon as he was mighty, the large horn was broken; and in its place there came up four conspicuous horns toward the four winds (fem) of heaven.


The Little Horn

9 Out of one of them came forth a rather small horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Beautiful Land.
10 It grew up to the host of heaven and caused some of the host and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down.
11 It even magnified itself to be equal with the Commander of the host; and it removed the regular sacrifice from Him, and the place of His sanctuary was thrown down.

By comparison to Greece and Persia - Papal Rome grew to be "exceedingly great" toward the south and east and Jerusalem and the Pope did claim the title of Vicar of Christ on earth even to the point of forgiving sin and changing the law (a point made on Fox News interview by Mike Huckabee recently as it turns out and indicated in a thread started here) .

Thus the angel is correct to point out that the events in the vision go all the way down to "the time of the end" Dan 8:17.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[scriptmemory]

False prophets have demons as the origin of their doctrines (1 Tim. 4:1; 1 Jn. 4:1) and Mrs. White is a thoroughly well documented false prophet. Bob's so-called Biblical arguments are nothing but parroting of Mrs. White's teaching and anyone who has read Mrs. White's teaching on this subject can easily see that. Bob is not using Scripture, but abusing it to support his false prophet. Lump it or like it that is the reality and if you think not, then simply pick up Mrs. White's teaching on this subject and you will not find one iota difference. Bob is following Mrs. White's line of thinking, a proven false prophet, and false prophets obtain their leadership from demons not God.

Now some don't like exposing Mrs. White for what she is or her followers for what they are but that is not my problem, it is simply the plain truth that can be easily well documented as I have already done in part.

You are easy prey for false prophets, Walter. False prophets mix truth with error and the devil is a master at reverse-psychology. If a false teacher, preacher or prophet writes or believes something 1) it doesn't mean it is error. 2) it doesn't mean it originated with them.

Are you thinking this through? It is a waste of time, when someone like BobRyan stays with Scripture and common sources for you to start the ad-hominem attack from the back.

I was in dialogue with someone else re: something the Catholic church taught. I am a protestant but this poster was insisting in the same manner you are that because the Catholic church taught something, it was evil. That is not protestant. That is prejudice. Pre-judice is prejudicial in that because someone believes something, never mind the text, it is deemed wrong.

You say Bob is "abusing scripture." It is your burden, from the Scriptures alone to respond. Christianity with paganism, sheep with wolves, poison with truth, this is how false prophets operate. Just because "someone taught it" or "wrote about it" doesn't make it wrong. The devil is a reverse-psychologist. He will bring reproach upon truth in this way.

God bless!

 

[Dr. Walter]

Your problem is with the Scriptures not me. The Scriptures command us to put prophets to the test (1 Jn. 4:1). The Scriptures declare their "doctrine" is derived from devils (1 Jn. 4:1). The Scripture commands us to expose them (Rom. 16:17). It is a simple Biblical principle that proven false prophets and their doctrines are demonic in origin and so any denomination, teacher, disciple that is following them is equally embracing demonic teaching and thereby being led by demons. It is an easy Biblical principle and if you don't apply it you are the one who is the prey for false prophets and demons. Think about it before you respond!

I never said that everything a false teacher, preacher, prophet writes or beleives originates from demons. I explicitly stated that the positions being presented by Bob are thought for thought expressions of Ellen G. White and if you don't believe that it is because you have not done your homework and you need to be educated and perhaps that education is being brought your way by yours truly.

I have responded and demonstrated he is wrong. Like all cultist, it does not matter how often or how much you prove them wrong they will simply ignore what you have stated and continue to repeat their prophets' teaching like a mocking bird. Hence, there is a time in such a discussion to simply call a spade a spade because it is futile to continue to repeat and repeat the same truths tha the cultist chooses to ignore.

Don't take anything I have said as mean spirited but please consider carefully before responding.

You are easy prey for false prophets, Walter. False prophets mix truth with error and the devil is a master at reverse-psychology. If a false teacher, preacher or prophet writes or believes something 1) it doesn't mean it is error. 2) it doesn't mean it originated with them.

Are you thinking this through? It is a waste of time, when someone like BobRyan stays with Scripture and common sources for you to start the ad-hominem attack from the back.

I was in dialogue with someone else re: something the Catholic church taught. I am a protestant but this poster was insisting in the same manner you are that because the Catholic church taught something, it was evil. That is not protestant. That is prejudice. Pre-judice is prejudicial in that because someone believes something, never mind the text, it is deemed wrong.

You say Bob is "abusing scripture." It is your burden, from the Scriptures alone to respond. Christianity with paganism, sheep with wolves, poison with truth, this is how false prophets operate. Just because "someone taught it" or "wrote about it" doesn't make it wrong. The devil is a reverse-psychologist. He will bring reproach upon truth in this way.

God bless!

 

[scriptmemory]

Walter, there is a time for everything. It is your burden to show that this doctrine is derived from devils using the Scripture alone. All we understand by your continued ad hominem, "well, you eat with drunkards and gluttons!" is that you are unable to do it. I understand your intentions and believe you mean well, but this method is used by all kinds of people to no avail and you would strengthen yourself by abandoning it.

God bless!

 

[Dr. Walter]

QUOTE]

We are trying to cover too broad of territory here and spreading ourselves way to thin. Let us narrow this down to one aspect at a time.

You have attempted to take the passage in 1 John 2 where there are many antichrists mentioned during the time of John and make it applicable to Revelation 17 where there is but one antichrist mentioned and ten kings that receive their power future from the time of John and yet make them both the same time "one hour."

This attempt characterizes the way you have been dealing with every argument between us. You take one text from other there and insert it over here and put together a patch work presentation.

In 1 Jn 2 he is not talking about the future but the present, he is not talking about "THE" antichirst but many antichrists, he is not talking about "one" hour yet to come from his time zone but the present "hour" of his own time and he is not talking about the time when these kings join with the antichrist to fight Christ at Armageddon but the present spiritual warefar that all Christians are engaged with this present world.

The immediate context of first John is not eschatalogical events but demonstrating how they can "know" they are children of God. The immediate context of Revelation 17 is not anything about demonstrating a person is born again but about eschatalogical events that occur when Christ returns to earth to fight the antichrist.

How can something that John says is yet future from him called "one hour" be the same "hour" that is not future but present with him???? It should be apparent that you are making a patch work presentation that is forced and false.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Going back to our original point of contention. The Great High Preist in Heaven.

May I ask you if the High Preist in the Old Testament ever sat down in regard to ANY ASPECT OF HIS WORK??? Did Aaron take a seat after he made the sacrifice at the brazen altar? Did he take a seat after he sprinkled the blood in the holy place? Did he take a seat after he sprinkled the blood in the holy of holies?

The answer is no! Hence, let us look at the Antitype. When did Christ as our High Priest take a seat? Did he do it here before the cross? Did he do it on the cross? Did he do it at the resurrection?

The answer is no! He took a seat as our High Priest when he entered heaven AFTER taking the seven sealed book from the right Hand of His Father, then he ascended to the throne and became SEATED at the right hand of the Father "UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BECOME HIS FOOTSTOOL."

My point is simple. The Great High priestly work PICTURED in Aaron and in all that Aaron did is FINISHED when Christ became SEATED. The cross finished that work. The resurrection proved it was finished. The asension into heaven presented it as FINISHED and reception of the book and being SEATED declared it was FINISHED and He has the right and power to take possession of what he PURCHASED by his own blood.

What Christ is doing in heaven right now is SITTING ON THE THRONE with the seven sealed book and removing those seals as he takes POSSESSION of what is His by redemptive purchase.

In regard to His people, some have already lived and died and are in heaven as the "spirits of just men made perfect" while others are living on earth and through the Person of the Holy Spirit he is taking possession of them as his purchased people and regenerating, justifying, sanctifying them and will receive them into heaven at their death as to be "absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." In regard to those not yet born, He will take possession of them as well as His redemptive possessions.

Taking possession of them by the Person and work of the Holy Spirit as the Third Person in the Trinity's covenant obligations is the UNFINISHED work of The Holy Spirit in His covenant obligations (work) but the covenant obligations of the Second Person has been FINISHED and being seated DECLARES it so. The work of the First Person and His covenant obligation is UNFINISHED (Jn. 6:44-45). All Three Persons of the Godhead have covenant obligatons in the "everlasting covenant" and only the Son's obligations have been FINISHED. The Son is now SEATED but not just anywhere. He is SEATED upon THE THRONE signifying that His work is not as the Lamb but as the LION of the Tribe of Judah - the King who is claiming His rights due to His FINISHED redemptive purchase and is now taking POSSESSION of His inheritance (of which the elect are part) through the UNFINISHED work of the First and Second Persons of the Godhead ON EARTH.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Walter, there is a time for everything. It is your burden to show that this doctrine is derived from devils using the Scripture alone. All we understand by your continued ad hominem, "well, you eat with drunkards and gluttons!" is that you are unable to do it. I understand your intentions and believe you mean well, but this method is used by all kinds of people to no avail and you would strengthen yourself by abandoning it.

God bless!

How naive! Who says one must use scripture alone? Who says one must ignore historical facts and other relative data???? Where in the Bible does it say that? It is one thing to eat "WITH" and it quite another thing eat WHAT they eat an drink WHAT they drink. I understand you mean well but you are naive.

BTW how could YOU even obey 1 Jn 4:1 apart from considering their historical acts and words?

How do you view and deal with the "Biblical" arguments that I have given to Bob in post #57 and Post #58?

 

[Dr. Walter]

As you were shown already

1. - the LXX refutes your view,

May I ask if you view translators and translation as given by inspiration or do you reserve that for the original in the language it was given? If you view translators and translations as inspired then how could you reject any translation with its translations such as the New World Translation as inspired?