Thanks for the correction in regards to #1. I do not see that it matters in regards to your argument (as long as one is elected prior to coming to a saving faith). I notice that your argument is specifically against Calvinism…although Arminianism would also fall into the category of believing individual election before the foundation of the earth…or prior to actual salvation as this is really the issue.
I cannot speak for “Calvinism” or for any other believer. So take my understanding with a grain of salt (I don’t claim to have all of the answers, nor do I claim that all of my answers are absolutely correct). I will offer these two observations (for you to take or dismiss at your discernment) (1) When Scripture speaks of the elect it speaks of God’s people “in Christ.” Men do not find themselves in this category until they are in this category (“in Christ”). In short, the elect are those being saved. This does not mean that the elect are not chosen prior to the foundation of the earth. (2) When Scripture speaks of bringing a charge against God’s elect, it is speaking of the elect being “in Christ” with Christ justifying and interceding for the elect. Here I also view the elect as being chosen before salvation actually occurs, but the term “elect” applying to the saved.
Perhaps this does not satisfy the demands of your observation as I can still see how you would have an issue with the “non-saved” elect (which both of us see as an oxymoron). My view is that we are speaking of the same people (those whom God chose) but in different states (saved vs. lost). I’m sure this is clear as mud, and for that I apologize.
No need to apologize for presenting your view, shared with other Calvinists. I do not (a real news flash) accept that a person can be chosen, elected individually, before creation, and not be considered elect until saved. That simply redefines the meaning of the word to fit Calvinism into the text.
If we change or add to the text, such as no charge can be brought against the elect, once they are saved, we are nullifying scripture, making it to no effect.
And again if we were simply comparing two verses, Romans 8:33 and Ephesians 1:4, you would seem to have a plausible view. But when we stack up a half dozen verses against your questionable view of Ephesians 1:4, you side loses plausibility.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen through faith in the truth. Now could we have faith in the truth before we heard the gospel? Nope, faith comings from hearing. We can reconcile these two verses by observing Ephesians 1:4 refers to a corporate, rather than individual election. When God chose His Redeemer before the foundation of the world, He also chose corporately, those the Redeemer would redeem. Hence, He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world.
Now, with that view, all the verses fit together. When we are chosen individually through faith in the truth, we are placed in Christ, and thus no charge can be brought against God's elect.
Still not convinced, consider 1 Peter 2:9-10 where we lived without mercy, and were not a people, but then were a chosen people, and had obtained mercy.
Next how about James 2:5, where God chose those poor to the world, yet rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love him. So yet again we have God choosing individuals not before creation, but during their lives after are rich in faith and love God.
Need more, how about 1 Corinthians 1:26-30 with God choosing individuals to shame others living on earth. All these elections of individuals found in scripture are conditional and occur during the lifetime of the individual.
At the end of the day, you will say, Van you cannot be right because we have 400 years of very bright and godly scholars all saying Calvinism's view is right. But the fact is we also have 400 years where very bright and godly scholars have been saying Calvinism is wrong. JonC, what if both were right, in seeing the other side was wrong.
