AV1611 Translator Sidenotes 2: Matthew

[Ed Edwards]

Thank you, Brother Pre.
God bless you.
I need to go to work, will talk later.

Pre: //I just thought anyone who strains at foot notes and side notes so much would at least be able to click on the "bookstore tab" //

Tee hee. there you go again,
your major form of exercise is
"jumping to conclusions".

 

[Ed Edwards]

S.Matthew XIII:41 (KJV1611):

The Sonne of man shall send
forth his Angels, and thy shall gather
out of his kingdome all ||things that offend,
and them which doe iniquitie :

Sidenote: ||OR. scandales.

S.Matthew XIII:41 (KJV1611):

The Sonne of man shall send
forth his Angels, and thy shall gather
out of his kingdome all scandales that offend,
and them which doe iniquitie :

Matthew 13:41 (NASB)

The Son of Man will send
forth His angels, and they will gather
out of His kingdom all F316 stumbling blocks,
and those who commit lawlessness,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FOOTNOTES:
F316: Or {everything that is offensive}

Honest translation is to document the
variation of the translation dynamics.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Ed - I just looked up this verse in the Greek (1555 St Stephens that underlies the AV1611)

The word "things" is NOT in the Bible! No word there at all.

Interesting that the AV "added" to the Word of God when they simply could have said "all the offenses" which is EXACTLY what Jesus said.

Panta ta skandala

Odd choice of English even for 1611??

 

[Ed Edwards]

What would be odder still is to make one's
doctrine (teaching) on the one word
in the one verse that might be questionable.

Fortunately the BB's SOF (statement of faith)
has over a dozen doctrines each of which
is based on a multitude of different
scriptures and not confined to the corners
of one edition of one version of one Bible.

Still praying for Brother Dr. Bob can
keep his pain level two or less most
of most days. And praying for some
good blessings from God to Brother
Dr. Bob, his family, and his ministry
this very day. Amen.

 

[Ed Edwards]

S.Matthew XIIII:1-2 (KJV1611):

At that time Herod the
Tetrarch head of the
fame of Jesus,
2. And said vnto his
seruants, This is Iohn
the Baptist, hee is risen fromt he dead,
and therefore mighty workes ||doe shew
forth themselues in him.

sidenote|| Or, are wrought by him

S.Matthew XIIII:1-2 (KJV1611alt):

At that time Herod the
Tetrarch head of the
fame of Jesus,
2. And said vnto his
seruants, This is Iohn
the Baptist, hee is risen fromt he dead,
and therefore mighty workesare
wrought by him.

So, was Herod impressed by the
mighty works that were seen
or the mighty works that were done?

The NLT seem to go for stuff that was done:

Matthew 24:2 (NLT)
he said to his
advisers, "This must be John
the Baptist come back to life again!
That is why he can do such miracles."

 

[Ed Edwards]

S.Matthew XIIII:30 (KJV1611):

But when he saw the wind
||boysterous, he was afraid : and beginning
to sinke, he cried, saying, Lord saue me.

Sidenote: ||Or, strong.

S.Matthew XIIII:30 (KJV1611alt):

But when he saw the wind
strong, he was afraid : and beginning
to sinke, he cried, saying, Lord saue me.

So did Peter get his faith shaken by
a boysterous wind or a strong wind?
Or does it really matter as both winds
are nigh equal?

The New American Standard Bible
gets around the whole problem with
"seeing the wind". That way we don't have
to worry about wheather it was "stong"
or "boysterous".

 

[Precepts]

How does one "see" the wind? I know I can see the effects of the wind, I can see the effects of a boistrous wind, but i have never actually seen the wind.

NasV: New advancements in storybook visualizations

 

[michelle]

Peace and love to you all in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour!

Ed,

Works are more than just miracles. Miracles are part of many different works. Works are many things, that which also includes miracles. And doing them, would also include seeing them, which validates them being wrought. "Do such miracles" isn't exactly what is meant. It softens it up, and doesn't tell the whole thing. Sorry, Ed, I do not agree.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Ed Edwards]

Interesting concept, Herod, the enemy of
God, must speak God's truth.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Precepts:
How does one "see" the wind? I know I can see the effects of the wind, I can see the effects of a boistrous wind, but i have never actually seen the wind.

NasV: New advancements in storybook visualizations

How cute, you assume
that every translation is wrong
save for the King James Translations.
after some logical smoke and mirrors, you
prove that every translation is wrong
save for the King James Translations.
Ah, the fast track of logic

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mattthew 20:12 (KJV1769):

Saying, These last have wrought F38 but one hour,
and thou hast made them equal unto us,
which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

---------------------------------------
FOOTNOTES:
F38: have wrought...: or, have continued one hour only

Mattthew 20:12 (KJV1769alt):

Saying, These last
have continued one hour only ,
and thou hast made them equal unto us,
which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

I worked yesterday as a technical document checker.
I ran across the word "continued" several times.
I never ran across the word "wrought".

 

[Precepts]

Wrought means worked. Continued at what? Maybe now your "technical document checker" needs to get saved.

Signed: Cutie Pie

 

[Dr. Bob]

Originally posted by Precepts:
Wrought means worked.

Not interested in what "wrought" means. That's just one of the choices of the 1611 translators.

God's WORD here is "poieo" which is an extremely primitive verb. It carries about 30 different meanings, all used somewhere in the AV! "Do, make, abide, agree, appoint, band together, be, bear, bewray, bring (forth), cast out, cause, commit, content, continue, deal, without any delay, execute, exercise, fulfil, gain, give, have, hold, keep, move, observe, ordain, perform, provide, purpose, put, secure, shew, shoot out, spend, take, tarry, work, or yield"

Any one of which is a real and accurate and legitimate definition of God's WORD used here.

KJVO's need to realize that one of the things Ed's study is showing is that even those esteemed men had various choices THAT ARE DIFFERENT than the KJV(whatever revision) that gives us none. The AV1611 is far more honest and accurate in translating than its offspring.

 

[Precepts]

So then do you ever wonder why the KJB translators made the decision to place the sidenote to the side and not in the text? I'll give you the hint: Because the sidenote didn't belong in the actual text, it is nothing more than a sidenote. Your conspiracy theory is maligned. I've noticed you do that often, suspect.

I have never looked at the Word of God with suspicion in mind, I will not start now either, or ever. "Hath God said?"

BTW, God's Word makes perfect sense, Ed's "KJV1611alt" alters the sense and often makes none; nonsense ought to be a familiar term.

 

[Ed Edwards]

I done gone and bought be a Hendrickson reprint
of THE HOLY BIBLE, KING JAMES VERSION
of 1611. This Hendrickson
KJV1611 facsimile looks page for page,
just like the Nelson KJV1611 facsimile.
But,if you remember what "facsimile" means
you can see this is to be expected.

It cost a mere $24.99

 

[Ed Edwards]

S.Matthew XXIII:18 (KJV1611)

And whosoeuer shall sweare by
the Alter, it is nothing : but whosoeuer
sweareth by the gift that is vpon it, he is
||guiltie.

|| Or, a debter, or bound

S.Matthew XXIII:18 (KJV1611alt1)

And whosoeuer shall sweare by
the Alter, it is nothing : but whosoeuer
sweareth by the gift that is vpon it, he is
a debtor.

S.Matthew XXIII:18 (KJV1611alt2)

And whosoeuer shall sweare by
the Alter, it is nothing : but whosoeuer
sweareth by the gift that is vpon it, he is
bound.

Intresting, the NIV and the NASB here
seem to be going off in different
directions than the KJV1611 main text.
Apparently "guilty" now (2004) means something
different than it did in 1611.

Matthew 23:14 (NASB)

"And, `Whoever swears by the altar,
that is nothing, but whoever swears by the offering
on it, he is obligated.'

Because of the changing English Language,
the NASB now gives a better understanding
of the original message than does the KJV.
The New King James Version (nKJV) felt
it should also clarify here:

Matthew 23:14 (nKJV):

And, 'Whoever swears by the altar,
it is nothing; but whoever swears
by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.'

Even the translation of the KJV uses
the third alternate:
Matthew 23:14 (KJ21):

And ye say, 'Whoever swears by the altar,
it is nothing; but whosoever swears
by the gift that is upon it, he is bound.'

 

[Precepts]

Matthew 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Pay closer attention to details, if you're gonna post details.

Sorry, the alternatives are simply wrong. Jesus was exposing the pharisees for their hypocritcal portrayal of offering gifts without any true repentence or obligation to fulfill their vow. They were making vows they had no intention to fulfill. Jesus saw right through their hypocrisy and pronounced them as guilty.

Matthew 23: 18 is Jesus backing up John the Baptist when he confronted them as a generation of vipers, needing to bring forth meats worthy of repentence. True they were bound by their vow, also they were obligated to fulfill that vow, but in the light of it is better not to make a vow than break a vow, they are GUILTY.

Jesus was preaching to them here, not making simple suggestions that they should do this and they should do that.

 

[Archangel7]

Originally posted by Precepts:

How does one "see" the wind? I know I can see the effects of the wind, I can see the effects of a boistrous wind, but i have never actually seen the wind.

Presumably one "sees the wind" the same way Moses and the Israelites "saw the thunderings" and "the noise of the trumpet" --

"And all the people SAW THE THUNDERINGS, and the lightnings, AND THE NOISE OF THE TRUMPET, and the mountain smoking: and when the people SAW it, they removed, and stood afar off" (Ex. 20:18, KJV).

NasV: New advancements in storybook visualizations

Then does that make the kjV "Old advancements in storybook visualizations?"

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Precepts:
Sorry, the alternatives are simply wrong.

Proof positive that
you, Sir Precepts, debase the very
version you call your Bible.
Not only do you run down my NIV,
you run down my KJV1611 and KJV1873.

 

[Dr. Bob]

So God inspired (Mt 23:16 and 18) the word "opheilei" in all Greek texts. It means, without exception, "obligated, bound, debtor".

There are two Greek words that mean "guilty" - enochos and hupodikos.

But in 23:16 the AV1611 translates "opheilei" debtor and in 18 the same word as guilty.

So what we're seeing is that the Anglicans got it right in v 16 and then changed it to a totally unrelated definition in v 18. That is a poser, isn't it?

Can someone check the previous English versions that the AV revised? Maybe there were other Greek documents or a reason for such an odd change of translation.

These guys were not capricious, so I'm looking for motive.