Babbling against Speaking in Tongues

[Deadworm]

Revmitchell: "When one does not have a basic understanding of proper exegesis they can come up with all kinds of wild doctrines to fit their presuppositions."

But your negative attitude towards tongues is birthed in an uneducated Baptist Ghetto that ignores Greek nuance and the relevant cultural background that applies "glossai" to oracular ecstatic speech that is mere gibberish in need of interpretation. My positive attitude is based on solid academic Bible commentaries written by scholars with no dog in this fight. I remind readers that my opponents freeze liken Bambi in the headlights when faced with my OP's detailed exegesis that they are unable to address, and so, ignore.

Revmitchel: "Paul did not say the tongues in Corinth were the tongues of angels, nor did he say that we would even be able to do so. His comment on his not speaking in angels tongues was hyperbole."

Academic commentaries with no pro-Pentecostal bias refute your arbitrary claim. Typical are Hans
Conzelmann's observations on 1 Cor 13:1 in his magisterial commentary "! Corinthians, p. 221:

"Paul is..after all thinking realistically of the language of angels., cf. 2 Cor 12:4, and further Ascension of Isaiah 7:15-37; Testament of Job 48-50: Job's daughters speak in the dialect of various classes of angels. A realistic interpretation is also indicated by the word order (glossais and lalo separated by ton anthropon; kai thereby acquires an intensifying effect."

Conzelmann might have added the example of first-century rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai who is famous for his ability to interpret angel speech. Also you overlook my point that Paul refers to the Corinthian tongues speakers as "zealots of spirits" (14:12) and "spirits" (pneumata) is a standard term for "angels" (see Hebrews 1:7). No hyperbole exists yet in Paul's phrase, "Though I speak in the tongues of men and of angels..."

 

[Yeshua1]

Yeshua1: "Tongues were unlearned languages, were used to testify that samirtans [?] and gentiles were saved by Jewish messiah,"

As usual, you pontificate without carefully reading the OP which refutes your nonsense. So I guess I'll just have to repeat myself and rub your nose in your oversight.
First, only the tongues on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) were unknown languages recognized by the Jewish witnesses. The tongues in Cornelius's house (Acts 10:44--47) and at Ephesus (19:1-6) were neither understood nor interpreted.

Second, the tongues in Acts 2 are labeled "prophesying" in fulfilment of Joel 2:28, whereas tongues and prophesying are carefully distinguished from each other in Acts 19:6 and 1 Cor. 12 and 14. That is because only in Acts 2 were the tongues identifiable as human languages.

Third, Paul identifies Corinthian speaking in tongues with "the tongues of... angels" in 131: and on that basis in 14:12 describes Corinthian tongues speakers as "zealots of spirits" (Greek: "pneuma"). "Spirits" is the term for "angels" In Hebrews 1:7,

Fourth, the Greek word "glossai" (= Tongues) is applied to ecstatic speech in non-Christian usage (e. g. with reference to the prophetess's speaking in tongues at the Oracle of Delphi), it refers to incoherent gibberish (not unknown human languages) that must be interpreted.

Yeshua: "...and the Holy Spirit used the gift in the transistion period when Apostles still living for doctrines, but we have no longer any need for their operation!"

How dare you insinuate the Spirit-inspired gifts are obsolete junk! There is not a shred of NT evidence that the gift of tongues must be limited to the apostolic era. For documentation of the ecstatic gifts throughout the first 3 centuries, see Dr. Ron Kydd's book "Charismatic Gifts in the Early Church: An Exploration into the Gifts of the Spirit During the First Three Centuries of the Christian Church."

There are No "heavenly languag epraying languages", as everytime they were used, was a real human language unknown to the speaker. There is no need to have them used in the Church now, as we all have the inspired scriptures and have the Holy Spirit to reveal them to us now!

 

[Yeshua1]

terrpn: "Tongues, etc. is so un-biblical I am not wasting anymore on this thread."
LOL, you just proved yourself virtually a biblical illiterate. On the other hand, I am an ex-theology professor with a Harvard doctorate in New Testament who knows Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, as well as other ancient languages from the biblical era. So kindly season your penchant for bluster with a modicum of intellectual rigor, read the relevant NT texts, and my exposition of them, and throw down, boy! Otherwise, go whimpering back to your carefully insolated Baptist thought Ghetto, so that you can avoid the big bad world of academic Bible study and its challenging insights.



terrpn: "Faith plus nothing.....it is settled, it was finished"
You illustrate famed Bible scholar B. F. Wescott's observation: "The simple Gospel is not so simple as the simple would have you suppose." You need to go to the Catholic thread and see where they excel you and your ilk in their grasp of the biblical doctrine of justification by faith. You don't think so? Then read those posts and let's get into the Word!

Trusting, putting faith in what he did to get me to glory. All righteousness is as filthy rags where the very best I can do falls short

Eph. 1:13 “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”

No hard feelings....


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[/QUOTE]
You equate the doctrines and Gospel of rome to be biblical, so your great learning would also be giving you dubious understanding on this subject also!

 

[Yeshua1]

Revmitchell: "When one does not have a basic understanding of proper exegesis they can come up with all kinds of wild doctrines to fit their presuppositions."

But your negative attitude towards tongues is birthed in an uneducated Baptist Ghetto that ignores Greek nuance and the relevant cultural background that applies "glossai" to oracular ecstatic speech that is mere gibberish in need of interpretation. My positive attitude is based on solid academic Bible commentaries written by scholars with no dog in this fight. I remind readers that my opponents freeze liken Bambi in the headlights when faced with my OP's detailed exegesis that they are unable to address, and so, ignore.

Revmitchel: "Paul did not say the tongues in Corinth were the tongues of angels, nor did he say that we would even be able to do so. His comment on his not speaking in angels tongues was hyperbole."

Academic commentaries with no pro-Pentecostal bias refute your arbitrary claim. Typical are Hans
Conzelmann's observations on 1 Cor 13:1 in his magisterial commentary "! Corinthians, p. 221:

"Paul is..after all thinking realistically of the language of angels., cf. 2 Cor 12:4, and further Ascension of Isaiah 7:15-37; Testament of Job 48-50: Job's daughters speak in the dialect of various classes of angels. A realistic interpretation is also indicated by the word order (glossais and lalo separated by ton anthropon; kai thereby acquires an intensifying effect."

Conzelmann might have added the example of first-century rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai who is famous for his ability to interpret angel speech. Also you overlook my point that Paul refers to the Corinthian tongues speakers as "zealots of spirits" (14:12) and "spirits" (pneumata) is a standard term for "angels" (see Hebrews 1:7). No hyperbole exists yet in Paul's phrase, "Though I speak in the tongues of men and of angels..."

My reaction against Tongues and the resultant Chasamatic theology that has spun off them is due to my having been trained in the AOG college, and was a teaching Elder, so I think do know of what I speak on this issue!

 

[Calminian]

I have no problem with anyone speaking tongues or doing miracles so long as it's the gifts that were manifest at Pentecost, or at least the same quality of those gifts, a quality worthy of God. Problem is, I don't know anyone who is claiming to have these gifts, even among the most Charismatic churches. So it appears they've ceased for now.

....

(1) Paul's command to "pray in the Spirit" is fulfilled by striving to speak in tongues. 3 points establish this teaching:
(a) Paul commands us to "pray in the Spirit" (Eph 6:18) and speaking in tongues is the only form of praying in the Spirit in the Bible (1 Cor 14:15). (b) Paul commands us to "strive for spiritual gifts (14:1)," clarifying this command with his desire for all of us to speak in tongues (14:5). (c) Paul repeatedly commands us to imitate his spirituality (1 Cor 4:16; 11:1; Phil 3:17) and makes it clear that such imitation includes a demonstration of the Spirit and of power (4:29-20; cp. 2:4-5).

No, that's not was Paul is saying. Praying is the Spirit has nothing to do with speaking gibberish. Paul said we don't know what to pray but the Spirit intervenes, and speaks on our behalf. We're commanded to do all things in the Spirit. Has nothing to do with speaking in a language no one understands, even the speaker!

(5) The tongues in contemporary languages in Acts 2 is NOT normative for later manifestations of this gift. ....

Yeah, says the group that can't duplicate it. You have no choice but to say that because you can't do anything that was done at Pentecost (in regard to miracles). So, you move the goal posts.

And the gift Peter manifested was likely also the gift of interpretation, another gift none of these Churches are able to acquire. They don't even pretend to be able to manifest these gifts. That's the real irony.

As someone pointed out, the gift of tongues is a sign, something amazing requires a miracle. Gibberish is no sign, especially to unbelievers. It's an easily faked human creation, and mocked by unbelievers.

 

[Yeshua1]

I have no problem with anyone speaking tongues or doing miracles so long as it's the gifts that were manifest at Pentecost, or at least the same quality of those gifts, a quality worthy of God. Problem is, I don't know anyone who is claiming to have these gifts, even among the most Charismatic churches. So it appears they've ceased for now.



No, that's not was Paul is saying. Praying is the Spirit has nothing to do with speaking gibberish. Paul said we don't know what to pray but the Spirit intervenes, and speaks on our behalf. We're commanded to do all things in the Spirit. Has nothing to do with speaking in a language no one understands, even the speaker!



Yeah, says the group that can't duplicate it. You have no choice but to say that because you can't do anything that was done at Pentecost (in regard to miracles). So, you move the goal posts.

And the gift Peter manifested was likely also the gift of interpretation, another gift none of these Churches are able to acquire. They don't even pretend to be able to manifest these gifts. That's the real irony.

As someone pointed out, the gift of tongues is a sign, something amazing requires a miracle. Gibberish is no sign, especially to unbelievers. It's an easily faked human creation, and mocked by unbelievers.

The Holy Spirit interceding for us has nothing to do with gibberish, as iot refer to Him taking our prayers to jesus to the Father in the perfect way, even when we cannot articulate what we have to speak!

 

[Revmitchell]

Revmitchell: "When one does not have a basic understanding of proper exegesis they can come up with all kinds of wild doctrines to fit their presuppositions."

But your negative attitude towards tongues is birthed in an uneducated Baptist Ghetto that ignores Greek nuance and the relevant cultural background that applies "glossai" to oracular ecstatic speech that is mere gibberish in need of interpretation. My positive attitude is based on solid academic Bible commentaries written by scholars with no dog in this fight. I remind readers that my opponents freeze liken Bambi in the headlights when faced with my OP's detailed exegesis that they are unable to address, and so, ignore.

Revmitchel: "Paul did not say the tongues in Corinth were the tongues of angels, nor did he say that we would even be able to do so. His comment on his not speaking in angels tongues was hyperbole."

Academic commentaries with no pro-Pentecostal bias refute your arbitrary claim. Typical are Hans
Conzelmann's observations on 1 Cor 13:1 in his magisterial commentary "! Corinthians, p. 221:

"Paul is..after all thinking realistically of the language of angels., cf. 2 Cor 12:4, and further Ascension of Isaiah 7:15-37; Testament of Job 48-50: Job's daughters speak in the dialect of various classes of angels. A realistic interpretation is also indicated by the word order (glossais and lalo separated by ton anthropon; kai thereby acquires an intensifying effect."

Conzelmann might have added the example of first-century rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai who is famous for his ability to interpret angel speech. Also you overlook my point that Paul refers to the Corinthian tongues speakers as "zealots of spirits" (14:12) and "spirits" (pneumata) is a standard term for "angels" (see Hebrews 1:7). No hyperbole exists yet in Paul's phrase, "Though I speak in the tongues of men and of angels..."

You know even less about my attitude than you do how to interpret scripture. So you found some commentaries that fit your presupposition. Big deal.

 

[Yeshua1]

You know even less about my attitude than you do how to interpret scripture. So you found some commentaries that fit your presupposition. Big deal.

good thing that he did not use our "ignorant Baptist" commentaries!

 

[robycop3]

It's CERTAINLY not essential for one to speak in tongues to be saved, or to prove one is saved.!

When the HOLY SPIRIT comes upon one, He manifests Himself thru that person as HE chooses. It may be something as simple as enabling that person to do a good job polishing his/her sanctuary's pews. We must remember the Holy Spirit has many gifts, which He bestows at HIS choosing. Some, of course, are more supernatural than others.

 

[terrpn]

good thing that he did not use our "ignorant Baptist" commentaries!

Yes....he can borrow my Harvard Ghetto Baptist Commentary latest edition


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[John of Japan]

I have taught several tongues in my ministry: English, Japanese, Greek. I have also interpreted all of those tongues. From that perspective, I can understand all of the occurrences of tongues in the NT. And I don't need to refer the the Oracle at Delphi to explain the tongues of the Bible. (Really? An idolatrous source to explain Biblical tongues???)

Here's my question to the tongues speakers here: who has gotten saved through your tongues? If no one, what use are they? Just to make you feel good? That's selfish, self-centered, and therefore not of the Holy Spirit.

 

[John of Japan]

Here's an example of a real, spiritual gift of the Chinese language that helped to win many souls to Christ:

"One day as Jonathan was about to leave for the chapel, he said to his wife, 'If the Lord does not work a miracle for me with this language, I fear I will be an utter failure as a missionary!'

"For a moment only he looked the heartbreak that that would mean. Then picking up his Chinese Bible, he started off. Two hours later he returned.

"'Oh, Rose!' he cried. 'It was just wonderful! When I began to speak, those phrases and idioms that would always elude me came readily and I could make myself understood so well that the men actually asked me to go on though Donald had risen to speak. I know the backbone of the language is broken. Praise the Lord!” Mr. Goforth then made a full note of this in his diary. About two months later, a letter came from Mr. Talling… saying that on a certain evening after supper, a number of students decided to meet in one of the class-rooms for prayer, 'just for Goforth.' The letter stated that the presence and power of God was so manifestly felt by all at that meeting, they were convinced Goforth must surely have been helped in some way. On looking up his diary, Mr. Goforth found the meeting for prayer by the students in Knox coincided with the experience recorded above'" (Goforth of China, by Rosalind Goforth, pp. 87-88).

 

[atpollard]

Acts is the Historical Book recording down to us the transistion era between the OT/NT, and the scriptures show us how the Holy Spirit functioned right at start of the Church, with the Apostles still living, but ceased to operate in that fashion with their deaths and the canon of scripture available .

You have a verse that says that?

 

[atpollard]

I have taught several tongues in my ministry: English, Japanese, Greek. I have also interpreted all of those tongues. From that perspective, I can understand all of the occurrences of tongues in the NT. And I don't need to refer the the Oracle at Delphi to explain the tongues of the Bible. (Really? An idolatrous source to explain Biblical tongues???)

Here's my question to the tongues speakers here: who has gotten saved through your tongues? If no one, what use are they? Just to make you feel good? That's selfish, self-centered, and therefore not of the Holy Spirit.

Tongues contributed significantly to my salvation.
(Although I am not a tongue speaker.)

I have a LOT of issues with the modern activity commonly called “Tongues” when compared to the descriptions in scripture. I just have more trouble with a declaration of fiat that the Holy Spirit can't or won’t or doesn’t do something any more because the Church doesn’t need THAT PARTICULAR gift of the Spirit.

I can’t find the verse that says the Body outgrew the need for anything the Holy Spirit does. Does God still grant tongues ... I don’t know. Can God still grant tongues ... you bet he can!

 

[John of Japan]

Tongues contributed significantly to my salvation.
(Although I am not a tongue speaker.)

If God gave someone your language miraculously so they could win you to Christ, it was Biblical.

I have a LOT of issues with the modern activity commonly called “Tongues” when compared to the descriptions in scripture. I just have more trouble with a declaration of fiat that the Holy Spirit can't or won’t or doesn’t do something any more because the Church doesn’t need THAT PARTICULAR gift of the Spirit.

I can’t find the verse that says the Body outgrew the need for anything the Holy Spirit does. Does God still grant tongues ... I don’t know. Can God still grant tongues ... you bet he can!

We agree.

 

[Deadworm]

Some Baptist readers are frustrated by the Baptist Ghettospeak of some of their brethren and want me to more fully expand on the biblical purpose and benefits of speaking in tongues. So I will defer my refutations of my critics until I have given a more complete treatment of the gift.

I have shared my personal testimony about how an incident of speaking in tongues was the most life-changing, emotionally nourishing, and intimate encounter with divine love, power and sweetness in my life. Much could be said about the value of tongues to the believer. But in this post I will explain just one of the most empowering functions of tongues. btw, I read a doctoral seminar paper on the point I make below to the 5 Harvard New Testament professors and it was well received.

In Romans 8:26-27 Paul expands on his command in Eph 6:18 to "pray in the Spirit:"

"Likewise the spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but that very Spirit intercedes for us with groans too deep for words (stenagmoi alaletai) ...the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God."

In other words, the Holy Spirit can take over our prayers and pray through us for what we need to pray for rather than for what we want to pray for or think we need to pray for. What this means more specifically depends on a more precise understanding of stenagmoi alaletai, a Greek phrase that is hard to translate. The meaning becomes clear when the Latin equivalent of the phrase in Lucan's Civil Wars (a work from Paul's day) and the Latin Vulgate is taken in to account. Lucan uses this phrase to describe the inarticulate gibberish or speaking in tongues of the prophetess at Delphi that must be interpreted by the male resident prophet. So in Romans 8:26-27 stenagmoi alaletai refers to intercessory prayer in tongues through which the Spirit offers petitions that satisfy God's will and are more effective for that very reason.

 

[Deadworm]

In my observation, cessationist Baptists relegate speaking in tongues and miracles to the age of the apostles because their own prayer lives are so anemic and impotent and they loathe the thought that Charismatics have far more effective and successful prayer lives than they do.

Let me offer a recent testimony that demonstrates how effective praying in the Spirit, that is, in tongues can be. My friend Dave had a life-threatening blood clot that extended from his groin area to his ankle. He was in great pain and doctors warned him not to move around much because a piece of the clot might break lose and go to his heart or his brain and kill him. Well, Dave didn't want his life to be paralyzed; so he decided to take his wife to Maverick's, a restaurant I can see from my living room window.

Meanwhile, Mark (another acquaintance of mine) had been baptized in the Spirit so powerfully that he had trouble desisting from speaking in tongues. His praying in the Spirit led him to Maverick's when Dave and his wife were there. Mark didn't know Dave, but felt prompted by the Spirit to approach him and ask, "Excuse me, but do you have a serious physical condition that needs prayer?" Dave was a bit taken aback by this question, but meekly said "Yes," because he couldn't lie about his serious condition. Mark then asked, "Would you like me to pray for healing?" Again, Dave felt obliged to say Yes, but felt self-conscious because other stunned customers were looking on. Dave hoped Mark would pray quietly so as not to draw too much attention, but Mark prayed loudly for his healing. As astonished doctors would later confirm, Dave was instantly healed and freed from all pain! Praise God! Only later did I learn that James, the owner of the restaurant, also had a blood clot and Mark's discernment discovered that fact and his prayer instantly healed James as well. This testimony illustrates the unique apostolic-like power that can be released by praying in tongues.

Fresh from his healing miracle, Dave felt constrained to pray for his mother-in-law who had a case of macular degeneration so severe that she could only see a blur. Dave and his wife prayed for a healing touch for this elderly woman. He brought her to see her ophthalmologist and a nurse was doing a routine check-up on her eyes, when she suddenly blurted out, "I can now read the eye chart!" The nurse ignored her comment, having established on other visits that she saw only a faint blur. But when Dave's mother-in-law read several lines from the chart, the shocked nurse began screaming and jumping around in dismay, disturbing the other patients and bringing the doctor out to quell the disorder. The doctor simply noted that he had no explanation for her amazing vision improvement, but insisted that she continue taking her eye drops just in case she needed this.

 

[Alcott]

In my observation, cessationist Baptists relegate speaking in tongues and miracles to the age of the apostles because their own prayer lives are so anemic and impotent and they loathe the thought that Charismatics have far more effective and successful prayer lives than they do.

Worm, let me ask you: have you ever seen a person with a missing arm or leg suddenly grow a new one because of prayer? Have you ever seen a prayer said in a cemetery and living bodies emerge from the graves? Have you ever jumped out of a boat on a body of water during a storm and walked on that water?

 

[Aaron]

Paul teaches that we should all strive to receive the gift of speaking in tongues.

Interesting. How does one 'strive' to speak in tongues exactly?

 

[Aaron]

Exactly what is the benefit of authentically speaking in tongues to the blessed seeker? I will answer that question in 2 ways: first from the perspective of personal experience and then, in another thread from the perspective of Scripture.

By far he most powerful and important turning point in my life was an experience of glossolalia at Manhattan Beach Camp in Manitoba. I was 16 at the time and felt I had lost my faith. I was determined to give it my best shot to find God real, but not to succumb to wishful thinking and emotionalism. That fateful, Tuesday, I went on a 7 mile walk towards Ninette, Manitoba, pleading with God to make Himself real to me. That evening, I did something I'd never done before. I fasted for dinner and put my dinner money in the offering plate. After the service, I stayed at the altar and prayed to be filled with the Spirit as I had previously done in vain. After almost everyone (about 1,000) left the open-air amphitheater, my heart still felt like stone as I tarried in prayer.

Then suddenly I felt a warm breeze, but it wasn't the wind from nearby Pelican Lake; it was the Holy Spirit first warming me and then possessing me. I was forced against my will to speak in tongues at the top of my voice. More importantly, wave after wave of liquid love surged through my being with ever increasing intensity until I feared it might kill me. My ego seemed on the verge of collapse into the divine presence. I can only speak poetically and say that I experienced a hundred times more love, power, the sweetness of intimate connection with God than I have ever experienced before or since. I have absolutely no doubt that if any of you experienced what I did that night, you would celebrate this encounter as by far the high point in your life.

A Lutheran pastor observed me, unseen, and quietly came and knelt beside me. He told me he was not Pentecostal and didn't believe in speaking in tongues. He had only come to the camp meeting as an interested observer. He said he could tell God was doing a special work in me and he asked me to pray for him. At that moment, if a blind man had approached me for prayer, I would have had no doubt that he would have been healed. Such was my faith in that moment! I made no effort to explain or defend tongues. Instead, I just gently touched this skeptical pastor's forehead, and the moment I did so, he just exploded into tongues like me. Another lady was sitting in the now darkened amphtheater and just staring at me. Self-conscious, I asked her why? She said, "Don't you know? Your face is glowing in the dark!"

When it was all over, I realized that God had said to me clearly: "Son, you long for answers to burning questions. But answers aren't good for you right now. They will make you live in your head, and i want to live in your heart. I want you to just live your questions until they lead you to the center of my heart." Instantly my mind was so transformed that I progressed from an ordinary student to the highest GPA in the province, a feat that helped finance a very long period of academic studies from BA to MDiv (Princeton) to Harvard doctorate in New Testament, Judaism, and Greco-Roman Backgrounds.
hat is the reason for my long educational pilgrimage from BA to MDiv to doctorate. The experience alos led to other gifts of the Spirit that at times provided as many questions as answers. I may well post about my journey into other gifts of the Spirit on another thread.

But here is my most sobering takeaway from the impact of that holy night on my life. I was so disillusioned with the Bible and so skeptical about any claims of divine connection that I now realize I would probably no longer even be a Christian, were it not for that night of supreme blessing. Decades later, I still draw comfort and spiritual nourishment from the very memory of that night.

So, you didn't strive to speak in tongues. Neither did this guy you touched. It just happened.

Why are you telling us to strive for it?