Babies are righteous?

[webdog]

From Brother Bob's website:


Strange that his church would use these statements as their own, yet Bob does not affirm them.
How does that work?

1. I've never seen Bob say we aren't saved by grace through faith.

2. Original sin is a fact (Genesis 3). Adam's original sin being passed on to every other human is false. The sin nature is what is passed on to everyone.
I've yet to see Bob claim the augustinian view of original sin, though, so I really don't know why you see a problem with his beliefs as compared to the church he pastors.

 

[Amy.G]

Are we not wrong to think only of babies in this context? I used to teach in what is called a "special school" here in England. There are various types of special school, but the one I last worked in included a special care unit for teenagers, some as old as 19, whose mental/educational development meant that, although they had almost adult bodies, they were like babies in most other respects. Most could not speak, feed themselves, or even use the toilet without help. They couldn't even understand why they shouldn't cross the street or touch a hot stove. And of course, there is a whole spectrum of mental ability, ranging from those youngsters I've just mentioned through to "gifted" youngsters who have remarkable abilities at a young age. So where on that spectrum do we "stick a pin" and say "That's the level of mental ability necessary to become a Christian!"?

But when it comes down to it, our God is great - if He wants to grant salvation to a person who has not the mental ability to understand the need of a Saviour, He can and will do it. And I'm sure we'd all agree that intellectual ability will not get us to heaven. Paul was a man of great intellect, both before and after his conversion, yet when the Lord Jesus Christ met him on the Damascus road, he was breathing out threats against Jesus and His church.

Why are you singling me out? If you read all my posts you would have seen that I agree with you. I believe God has His way of dealing with babies and the mentally impaired. But, I cannot find it in scripture. Can you?

 

[Amy.G]

1. I've never seen Bob say we aren't saved by grace through faith.

2. Original sin is a fact (Genesis 3). Adam's original sin being passed on to every other human is false. The sin nature is what is passed on to everyone.
I've yet to see Bob claim the augustinian view of original sin, though, so I really don't know why you see a problem with his beliefs as compared to the church he pastors.

Not wanting to argue, just asking. Where did Adam get his sin nature? He was created perfect. Did his nature change somehow when he sinned?

 

[webdog]

Not wanting to argue, just asking. Where did Adam get his sin nature? He was created perfect. Did his nature change somehow when he sinned?

Adam wasn't created with a sin nature, it came as a result of his disobedience. None of God's creation was created imperfect. This further nails home the fact that God remains sovereign while allowing man's freedom to reject or accept Him. If not, God created an imperfect human being, and part of His creation was flawed.

 

[Amy.G]

Adam wasn't created with a sin nature, it came as a result of his disobedience. None of God's creation was created imperfect. This further nails home the fact that God remains sovereign while allowing man's freedom to reject or accept Him. If not, God created an imperfect human being, and part of His creation was flawed.

I agree. But was Adam's nature 'changed' when he sinned? Or is this what is referred to as 'spiritual death'?

 

[webdog]

I agree. But was Adam's nature 'changed' when he sinned? Or is this what is referred to as 'spiritual death'?

Not so much changed, but added in the same sense when a believer dies, his sin nature is removed. The sin nature is associated with death and that which is corruptible. When we die, our sin natures remain in the grave. Adam wasnt' created to die, so when he died both physically and spiritually, the sin nature was also added.

 

[Brother Bob]

Adam was created with the ability to choose to obey or disobey.

Rom 8:20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,

Though he was without sin, he was created that he was abel to sin if he so desired.

 

[Andy T.]

Not so much changed

Not much changed? Webdog, you underestimate the magnitude of the Fall.

 

[webdog]

Not much changed? Webdog, you underestimate the magnitude of the Fall.

I'm not sure if you understood what I posted. Do you believe God created Adam with a sin nature?
If not, then his nature didn't change...but a sin nature was added.

 

[Andy T.]

I'm not sure if you understood what I posted. Do you believe God created Adam with a sin nature?
If not, then his nature didn't change...but a sin nature was added.

No, Adam was not created with a sin nature, but yes, his nature did change after the Fall. The Fall created a dramatic change in the nature of man. But you and I disagree on that, I'm sure.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Of course I believe that a man cannot save himself but is in need of a Saviour. By Grace "through faith" are you saved.

well if that's you mean by "original sin", but historically that's not what the doctrine teaches.
I'm linking to Wikipedia, not because I think it is the most precise, but since most would consider it more objective than a Reformed site.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin

And that includes preaching and reading scripture to infants. Well, we never cease to learn do we, but I have not read this in scripture?

Mat 19:14But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Scripture seems to say they got there without you.

What exactly are you advocating?

Deuteronomy, chapter 1
39: Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

And you take this to mean that little children are incapable of understanding right from wrong? I don't or I wouldn't be spending time with my toddler teaching him to listen and obey.

 

[webdog]

No, Adam was not created with a sin nature, but yes, his nature did change after the Fall. The Fall created a dramatic change in the nature of man. But you and I disagree on that, I'm sure.

You say he wasn't created with a sin nature...but then you state his nature "changed". If it was never there to begin with, how, and what did it change into?

 

[Brother Bob]

Deuteronomy, chapter 1
39: Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it. And you take this to mean that little children are incapable of understanding right from wrong? I don't or I wouldn't be spending time with my toddler teaching him to listen and obey.

It is scripture, you can reject it if you want.

Also, I know what http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin says about Original and was probably written by a reformed person of which all definitions are written by different people on wikipedia.

Origianal sin brought natural death upon all mankind and a sinful nature about us all. The Bible plainly teaches that infants and small children have no understanding of good or evil for God told us so.

Mat 19:14But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

What am I advocating? The same thing Jesus was advocating and that is, except you become as innocent as a little child, you will never see what Heaven looks like.

It bothers me, that some feel they are so special that they, and all their children can go to Heaven, but their neighbors can not, and are not able to do anything about it, but were created to burn forever. I just don't believe in a God like that. Also, it especially bugs me that they believe the pathway to hell is covered with the bones of babies.

You speak of your little toddler as the elect, while believing that other babies are going, or could go to hell.

Mat 18:10¶Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

 

[Andy T.]

You say he wasn't created with a sin nature...but then you state his nature "changed". If it was never there to begin with, how, and what did it change into?

I don't know what you are getting at. Our natures are not substances like a cake recipe to where you "add" something. His nature was changed in that it was radically reoriented towards sin and sin only.* At this point, I could list here all the many verses of Scripture that describe our sinful state, but that's been done ad nauseum.

*The Foremost Commandment is to love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. Fallen, unregenerate man is in a perpetual state of violating this commandment.

 

[webdog]

What I don't understand is...if all babies and children can supposedly understand the Gospel according to some here, why can't all ADULTS understand this same Gospel? A child doesn't know how to dress themselves, but they can understand the Gospel...but an adult who can dress themselves can't? No logic in this whatsoever. Our God is smart...not dumb.
What if your child is not one of the nebulous "elect"? If so, you now can do something greater than God...love your reprobate child more than He does. Does this make you sovereign?

 

[webdog]

I don't know what you are getting at. Our natures are not substances like a cake recipe to where you "add" something. His nature was changed in that it was radically reoriented towards sin and sin only.* At this point, I could list here all the many verses of Scripture that describe our sinful state, but that's been done ad nauseum.

*The Foremost Commandment is to love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. Fallen, unregenerate man is in a perpetual state of violating this commandment.

I think you are confusing the issue.

A. was Adam created with a sin nature?
B. how did he receive the sin nature.

The answer to A is "no". He was NOT created with a sin nature.
The answer to B is "through sinning". the nature he had wasn't changed into a sin nature...he wasn't born to physically or spirutially die. You can't change something you never had into something. I can't change from jeans to dress pants if I don't even have dress pants to begin with.

 

[Amy.G]

It bothers me, that some feel they are so special that they, and all their children can go to Heaven, but their neighbors can not, and are not able to do anything about it, but were created to burn forever. I just don't believe in a God like that. Also, it especially bugs me that they believe the pathway to hell is covered with the bones of babies.

You speak of your little toddler as the elect, while believing that other babies are going, or could go to hell.
__________________
Brother Bob,

Amen! Bro. Bob. :thumbs:

 

[Andy T.]

I think you are confusing the issue.

A. was Adam created with a sin nature?
B. how did he receive the sin nature.

The answer to A is "no". He was NOT created with a sin nature.
The answer to B is "through sinning". the nature he had wasn't changed into a sin nature...he wasn't born to physically or spirutially die. You can't change something you never had into something. I can't change from jeans to dress pants if I don't even have dress pants to begin with.

We are just playing semantics on this. If something is "added" to it, then it is certainly "changed" because it is different than what it was before. So in that we agree. I was just being overly contentious. Sorry about that.

 

[johnp.]

What happens after they die is not written in scripture that I know of.

No one knows what happens to the children of the unsaved after they die Amy.G. Scripture says that our children are saved but no one believes it.

We are not guilty of sin until we sin.

That is a false teaching and opposes 2000 years of the Churches teaching. All have sinned in Adam, RO 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--
We are sinners from conception. PS 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Original sin stands.

However, we all are condemned as far as physical death goes.

Dying physically is not condemnation, being sentenced to Hell is condemnation. This word has changed it's meaning and the way you use it is false.

How God deals with their spiritual condition is a mystery.

God has set the means by which all men are saved and that is by hearing His word.

If the answer is in scripture, please show it to me.

The answer to that is not in scripture unless one wishes to believe Rom 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
Those who do not hear are not saved. That is the only real answer scripture gives and those that hold this view should be respected not condemned.

How's that?

john.

 

[Brother Bob]

Scripture:

Deuteronomy, chapter 1
39: Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.


Mat 19:14But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.



Mat 18:10¶Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
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