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Babies in hell?
- Thread starter kyredneck
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
" He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." ( John 3:18 )
" [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:" ( Romans 9:22 )
" What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (according as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day." ( Romans 11:7-8 )
" the Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:" ( 2 Peter 2:9 )
" But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 and shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, [as] they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time." ( 2 Peter 2:12-13 )
" Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith." ( 2 Timothy 3:8 )
" and a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed." ( 1 Peter 2:8 )
" For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." ( Jude 1:4 ).
" For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." ( Romans 8:29-30 ).
" For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call." ( Acts of the Apostles 2:39 )
" praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." ( Acts of the Apostles 2:47 )
Every verse and passage that shows that God is selective, also shows that anyone, from the womb, who does not end up believing, will end up in Hell.
But God is not willing that any of His children perish, but that they ALL come to repentance ( 2 Peter 3:8-10 ).
His elect are preserved to hear the Gospel, while the reprobate are consigned to whatever life they get, and then to be cast into Hell for their sins.
Babies are not born innocent ( Psalms 58:3 ); They are estranged from God from the womb, and they go forth, speaking lies.
That is what is written.
For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God ( Romans 3:23 ).
There is NONE righteous, no not ONE ( Romans 3:10-12 ).
Sinners, unless they believe on Christ from the heart, will end up in Hell.
That includes babies, as I see it.
Mankind is completely at the mercy of God, because mankind is completely guilty of sin and rebellion, every. single. one. of us.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Lodic, that is a prophecy about the Messiah:
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings." ( Isaiah 7:14-16 ).
...and that includes infants that have not the capacity to believe?
Did you vote?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I voted "Yes".
Thank you.
but you didn't answer the question: "and that includes infants that have not the capacity to believe?"
Dave G
Well-Known Member
That includes infants who have the capacity to sin from the womb ( Psalms 58:3 ).
If anyone believes, it is the work of God ( John 6:29 ).
Therefore, there is no chance that even a baby would believe, unless He does the work.
No one, apart from the power and working of the Holy Ghost, has the "capacity to believe".
Don't mistake my matter-of-factness for the desire to see babies go to Hell...
It's not my call, it's God's.
I'm only telling you what I see born out in Scripture.
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All persons are conceived in sin and Guilty being born in Adam.
The confession of faith states Elect infants dying in infancy are saved by the mercy and grace of God. It also says the same for mentally defective persons.jn.3:5-10
This leaves the whole matter in Gods hands.
Any and all such persons are saved by mercy and grace.
If God for His Holy purposes has decreed to save all, He will.
If in His perfect wisdom He has reasons not to.save all that is His perfect judgment to.make. Not one of us can say otherwise.
The confession of faith states Elect infants dying in infancy are saved by the mercy and grace of God. It also says the same for mentally defective persons.jn.3:5-10
This leaves the whole matter in Gods hands.
Any and all such persons are saved by mercy and grace.
If God for His Holy purposes has decreed to save all, He will.
If in His perfect wisdom He has reasons not to.save all that is His perfect judgment to.make. Not one of us can say otherwise.
That includes infants who have the capacity to sin from the womb.
If anyone believes, it is the work of God ( John 6:29 ).
Therefore, there is no chance that even a baby would believe, unless He does the work.
No one, apart from the power and working of the Holy Ghost, has the "capacity to believe".
Don't mistake my matter-of-factness for the desire to see babies go to Hell...
It's not my call, it's God's.
I'm only telling you what I see born out in Scripture.
Here is an excerpt from Spurgeon and if you would like to read the whole message on Infant Salvation the link is included... Brother Glen
As for modern Calvinists, I know of no exception, but we all hope and believe that all persons dying in infancy are elect. Dr. Gill, who has been looked upon in late times as being a very standard of Calvinism, not to say of ultra-Calvinism, himself never hints for a moment the supposition that any infant has perished, but affirms of it that it is a dark and mysterious subject, but that it is his belief, and he thinks he has Scripture to warrant it, that they who have fallen asleep in infancy have not perished, but have been numbered with the chosen of God, and so have entered into eternal rest. We have never taught the contrary, and when the charge is brought, I repudiate it and say, "You may have said so, we never did, and you know we never did. If you dare to repeat the slander again, let the lie stand in scarlet on your very cheek if you be capable of a blush." We have never dreamed of such a thing. With very few and rare exceptions, so rare that I never heard of them except from the lips of slanderers, we have never imagined that infants dying as infants have perished, but we have believed that they enter into the paradise of God.
Infant Salvation
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I appreciate the information, Glen, but I think Scripture should be enough.
I'll seek the Lord's answer on it through His word.
If babies are not condemned, then is a mother who aborts hers guaranteeing that baby does not go to perdition, whereas 'keeping' the baby subjects it to the possibility (probability?) Of eternal damnation for existing? Either way, can a person be happy in heaven knowing a child of hers is in hell? Or will we even know such a fact? There's a verse in the latter chapters of Isaiah that says "...we will remember them no more..."
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Why would you think everyone that is born falls into this category? These are 'designated', the wicked. You think John the Baptist who had the spirit and jumped for joy while in the womb at the presence of Mary pregnant with Jesus was "estranged from the womb"? You think David who was made to hope while on his mother's breast was estranged from the womb? You think Isaac who was born after the Spirit by the time of his weaning was estranged from the womb? You think Paul who was separated from his mother's womb to preach to the Gentiles was 'estranged from thre womb'?
The passage is in reference to 'the wicked'.
I appreciate the information, Glen, but I think Scripture should be enough.
I'll seek the Lord's answer on it through His word.
It wasn't meant just for you Dave but anyone that wants to take a look... Consider what I say and the Lord giveth thee understanding on all things... Brother Glen
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I agree.
The passage is in reference to the wicked.
However, all of the ones quoted came to repentance.
John the Baptist was born, grew up and served the Lord's will.
Same with David, same with Isaac, same with Paul and the same with any of God's elect.
They will come to repentance ( 2 Peter 3:8-9 ).
If you wish to make exceptions for babies who never come to repentance, that is your call.
I do not see Scripture supporting those who die in infancy, never having heard the Gospel, as going to Heaven.
The same as those who do not hear the Gospel as adults.
There is no difference, all are sinners.
Whosoever believes shall have everlasting life.
I didn't make the rules, God did.
On the day the Holy Spirit was shed forth, Pentecost, 51 days after the resurrection of Christ, Peter said David, on that day, was both dead and buried and also said that when David wrote that his soul would not be left in Hades (Hell KJV) that David wasn't speaking of himself but of Christ of the fruit of his loins, therefore I ask; Just where was David on that day, 51 days after the resurrection to die no more Rom 6:9 and where was his infant son?
I will agree with one thing. David had gone to him.
1 Then Samuel said to Saul, “The LORD sent me to anoint you as king over His people, over Israel; now therefore, listen to the words of the LORD. 2 Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. 3 Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”[1 Samuel 15]
God views babies way differently than we do, imo.
God views babies way differently than we do, imo.
I expected you'd have the guts bro. More later.
I do not think its guts...just that I want to remain as true to the text(s) as I possibly can. I am sure all of us do that, even if we arrive at differing conclusions.
We seem to be speculating on that which scripture is silent
We do know that God always does that which is right
If God can create the Heavens and the Earth why can He not implant faith into the unborn? He is the God of the impossible.
Yes I believe that God implants faith into infants
We do know that God always does that which is right
If God can create the Heavens and the Earth why can He not implant faith into the unborn? He is the God of the impossible.
Yes I believe that God implants faith into infants
This is what I was taught growing up Southern Baptist, that children were innocent until the age of accountability but I never heard it explained with scripture until I met the most influential sovereign grace Bible teacher in my life, Arthur Crawford. The non-denominational group (also sovereign grace) I was part of at that time held to ‘innocent till the age of accountability’. I believe Donald Barnhouse in his Romans commentaries was in agreement with Arthur Crawford in recognizing from scripture a universal aspect of the atonement.
18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life. Ro 5
9 And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died; Ro 7
...meaning that Christ's atonement did away with Adam's transgression passing down upon all men and all men are now born innocent and eventually become guilty of their own accord.
No doubt this view will send some hardshell Calvinists into convulsions but it does relieve the Calvinist tension with other ‘universal passages’ such as:
10 For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe. 1 Tim 4
9 There was the true light, even the light which lighteth every man, coming into the world. Jn 1
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