Baby shower for an unwed mother

[corndogggy]

Furthermore, the Bible explicitly commands us to judge. So on what basis are you "pretty sure you're not supposed to do that"?

That's one of those awesome contradictions, because there's plenty of biblical commands telling us not to.

Matthew 7:1 - "Judge not, that ye be not judged."

Luke 6:37 - "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged. "

Romans 2:1 - "Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things."

Romans 14:10 - "But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. "

James 4:12 - "Who art thou that judgest another? "



and my favorite:
Matthew 7:3 - "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

or as the NIV says: "Why do you see the speck in your brother's eye but fail to notice the beam in your own eye?"


What part of "thou art inexcusable" don't you understand?

 

[Pastor Larry]

That's one of those awesome contradictions, because there's plenty of biblical commands telling us not to.

Well, let's look at them.

Matthew 7:1 - "Judge not, that ye be not judged." ... and my favorite:
Matthew 7:3 - "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"

or as the NIV says: "Why do you see the speck in your brother's eye but fail to notice the beam in your own eye?"

For some reason you separated these. They actually go together (as you can tell by the numbers). And you also skipped v. 2: For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. And v. 5: You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

As you can see, the point here is not about judgement but about hypocrisy.

Luke 6:37 - "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged. "

This verse is about loving others.

Romans 2:1 - "Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things."

This verse is about hypocrisy.

Romans 14:10 - "But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. "

This verse is about Christian libert.

James 4:12 - "Who art thou that judgest another? "

This verse is about hypocrisy ... those who judge by the law but don't do the law.


So what you have shown is that we shouldn't be hypocrites. We shouldn't judge others for things about which we ourselves are not repentant.

The Scripture, on teh other hand, is full of commands to judge, such as Matt 18, 1 Cor 5, Phil 1, James 5, etc. The point is the basis of judgment and the attitude of judgment.

But more to the point: Not having a baby shower is not the same as judging them. To equate those two is misguided. We can provide for the mother without a baby shower and not be in unrighteous judgment.

What part of "thou art inexcusable" don't you understand?

I understand it perfectly. What part of "thou that judgest doest the same things" don't you understand? If I am an unwed mother and throw a baby shower for myself, while refusing to throw one for someone else, then I am "inexcusable" perhaps (but even then we would have to look deeper). If I discipline someone out of the church for immorality, but participate in immorality, I am inexcusable. Not having a baby shower for someone is not inexcusable.

 

[Revmitchell]

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1Co 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
1Co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1Co 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

 

[corndogggy]

We can provide for the mother without a baby shower and not be in unrighteous judgment.

Ah, so it's ok to get them stuff, possibly even talking about it and handing the gift over at church... you just can't get several people together at the same time and do that and call it a shower. Yeah, that's it. :thumbs:

 

[Pastor Larry]

Ah, so it's ok to get them stuff, possibly even talking about it and handing the gift over at church... you just can't get several people together at the same time and do that and call it a shower. Yeah, that's it.

Have you even read this thread? Please go back and read my comments before making smart aleck responses.

 

[corndogggy]

As you can see, the point here is not about judgement but about hypocrisy.

The point is that it's kind of hard to be judgmental without being a hypocrite.

 

[corndogggy]

Have you even read this thread? Please go back and read my comments before making smart aleck responses.

Yeah actually, and you seem to make the same argument here:

Perhaps I am reading too much into this, but there seems this idea that God's love can't be shown without a baby shower. Why? Can we not show God's love by actually caring for the young lady and providing things she needs without drawing attention and celebrating the situation?

 

[Pastor Larry]

The point is that it's kind of hard to be judgmental without being a hypocrite.

That's not the point of that passage.

And it's not hard to be judgmental without being a hypocrite. If we strive to live in repentance, we can practice loving judgment in the context of biblical obedience. In fact, if you don't practice judgment, you can't be obedient Christ. Paul condemns the Corinthians because they did not practice judgment. HE said if he was there he would have already done it.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Yeah actually, and you seem to make the same argument here:

I think it safe to say that you don't understand what the argument is.

 

[matt wade]

A shower is about helping a family more than having a party. The initial monetary costs and the time needed to collect the items are so overwhelming that without a shower the family would usually have to do without, especially if it's a single mother, and the person who suffers the most is the innocent child.

The child does not suffer at all if there is not a shower. The shower is a celebration. All the helping should happen with or without a shower. You seem to think that helping can only happen with a shower. You are wrong.

It's also ironic that Christians would turn their back on someone in what could be their darkest hour, the most overwhelming time of their life when they need the most help and support. At this time, it's amazing that some of you would say "sorry, you're not good enough for our help and support".

No one has said that. What I say is sorry, I will not celebrate your sin. I will however, help you to raise the child properly. That includes helping you with essential items if you can't afford them. That also includes helping to hold you up and instruct you on the ways of righteousness.

When does it end anyway? If you shun them at shower time, when do you stop shunning them? If you feel that you are right for shunning them, then you don't stop, even if they continue to hang around, leaving that child to grow up in a hostile church that shuns them. How is that being a good Christian?

No shunning is taking place. Again I ask, should we celebrate a murderer? If you say no, then in your eyes you would be shunning the murderer. Where does your shunning stop?

Also ironic that you would compare birth to murder.

A sin is a sin and none should be celebrated. I'm not comparing a birth to a murder. I'm comparing a child conceived outside of weblock to murder.

 

[corndogggy]

I'm comparing a child conceived outside of weblock to murder.

I know exactly what you're comparing, and without going into what I think of your opinion, let me ask you... so you think everybody who has had sex outside of wedlock is on the same level as a murderer?

 

[corndogggy]

I think it safe to say that you don't understand what the argument is.

Your argument is that it's perfectly fine for everybody to give gifts individually, or even have a shower elsewhere. You just can't hold a shower in the church building where everybody gives gifts all at once. Tell me that's not what you're saying.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Your argument is that it's perfectly fine for everybody to give gifts individually, or even have a shower elsewhere. You just can't hold a shower in the church building where everybody gives gifts all at once. Tell me that's not what you're saying.

That's not what I am saying.

 

[matt wade]

I know exactly what you're comparing, and without going into what I think of your opinion, let me ask you... so you think everybody who has had sex outside of wedlock is on the same level as a murderer?

Is one sin greater than another? Both condemn you to hell. Neither should be celebrated.

 

[corndogggy]

Is one sin greater than another? Both condemn you to hell. Neither should be celebrated.

That's the problem though, you're not celebrating the sin, you're celebrating and helping the new life. The initial act is the sin, not the child. Just because one person's luck was a little different and a child was produced doesn't mean they're any worse than the next person who did the exact same thing. You should assume that they are forgiven by God and do the same yourself. Keeping grudges and acting like this person is still sinful does no good and is hardly honorable. You usually don't know the whole story and it's pretty horrible to say that a child isn't worth celebrating.

 

[corndogggy]

Even if we are guilty of gluttony, that doesn't make other sins okay.

It does make one a hypocrite if they're so willing to speak against these other since without admitting their own.

 

[webdog]

The child does not suffer at all if there is not a shower. The shower is a celebration. All the helping should happen with or without a shower. You seem to think that helping can only happen with a shower. You are wrong.

You have defined it purely as a celebration regardless if it is one or not.

No one has said that. What I say is sorry, I will not celebrate your sin. I will however, help you to raise the child properly. That includes helping you with essential items if you can't afford them. That also includes helping to hold you up and instruct you on the ways of righteousness.

It's not a celebration of a sin, and oddly the very things you would help them with is the purpose of a shower. Go figure.

No shunning is taking place. Again I ask, should we celebrate a murderer? If you say no, then in your eyes you would be shunning the murderer. Where does your shunning stop?

The celebrating a sin card is getting quite old. Surely you can do better...

A sin is a sin and none should be celebrated. I'm not comparing a birth to a murder. I'm comparing a child conceived outside of weblock to murder.

See above reply.

Who are you to compare a child conceived out of wedlock to murder?

 

[rbell]

OK, for those who oppose, here's a question:

This is how our church handles it with members:

Suppose a girl gets pregnant out of wedlock. Her and the boy (if either/both are members) confess publicly, and agree to step down from leadership positions for a season.

Can the shower then be held, with no penalty in the afterlife?

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

The Bible says that children are a blessing, it does not say that children are a blessing IF the parents are married.

With a shower, I would be celebrating the impending birth of a child and supporting the mother's decision to let her baby live---not the sin of conceiving out of wedlock.

The Blood either covers ALL sins or NO sins... Why squabble over which is the worst sin?

 

[matt wade]

OK, for those who oppose, here's a question:

This is how our church handles it with members:

Suppose a girl gets pregnant out of wedlock. Her and the boy (if either/both are members) confess publicly, and agree to step down from leadership positions for a season.

Can the shower then be held, with no penalty in the afterlife?

No the shower should not be held.

Now, my hypothetical situation:

Two women in your church come forward and admit they are homosexuals and are going to adopt a child. Is it OK for the church to have a baby shower?

Obivously my answer is no. The baby shower is a celebration for the mother and this situation should not be celebrated.