Baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ?

[TCassidy]

The issue is your teaching that the body the Son manifested in that was created in the womb of Mary ascended then went back in time to speak to Abraham on the plains of Mamre.

How does one go "back in time" while in Eternity, which is timeless? The concept of Eternity being timeless completely escapes you.

Again...in the Old Testament. Several men named Joshua but not one of them said to be the Son of God.

Again, today there are many people named Jesus but not one of them are said to be God the Son so, therefore, by your "logic" Jesus must not exist!

We see the name Joshua but we do not see the Name of Jesus.

LOL! ROFLOL! Another "English Only" nonsensical comment. You are aware "Joshuah" and "Jesus" are the same name in different languages?

What other names don't you understand?

My dad was "William" to my grandmother, his mother, but "Guillermo" to my grandfather, his father. Same name. Different language. My maternal grandmother, my mothers mother, called him "Guillaume," she being French. Same name. Different language.

You have got to be trolling me. You can't possible be so dense you don't know "Joshua" and "Jesus" are the same name in different languages!

 

[Darrell C]

Thanks for the reply. I think church history (of course it is up for grabs) says they baptized in Jesus' name until the second century. And then the church at Rome changed it to what is common today. It's worth searching out.

After you have spent a little time on this forum you may see that too much preoccupation with Church History can have adverse effect, lol.

I spend very little time looking at how God worked through the Saints of the past, and try to focus on how He would work through me.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit happened at Pentecost and is now part of the New Birth.

I would suggest to you that the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is in fact the reason for the New Birth, which was not taking place prior to Pentecost.

It was the Promise of God:


Ezekiel 36:24-27
King James Version (KJV)

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


Men are born again by the Gospel and the Resurrection (or in other words through the Work of Christ):


1 Peter 1:2-3; 20-23
King James Version (KJV)


2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


Ephesians 5:25-27;
King James Version (KJV)

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.


30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.


The new creature is a result of our Reconciliation with God, which is itself a result of the Atonement:


2 Corinthians 5:17-19
King James Version (KJV)

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


The Ministry of the Comforter is unique to this Age, and was not taking place prior to the coming of the Promised Spirit.

So as not to make this too long, I would just make one point that I would ask you to consider:


John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


John 14:20-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Here is the question: can a man be born again apart from the Eternal Indwelling of God? Apart from Atonement? Apart from...

...believing on the Name of Jesus Christ?

If we say that men were "born again" in the Old Testament based on faith in a coming Messiah, should we not then stop evangelizing Jews who, though they reject Jesus Christ, await the coming of the Messiah?

The Gospel of Christ was a Mystery, not revealed in the Ages past, but is now revealed to men by the Spirit that was sent:


1 Peter 1:10-12
King James Version (KJV)

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


All throughout the New Testament we see the distinction drawn between what is happening now and what took place prior to the Coming of Christ and the Comforter. One more passage:


John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Regeneration began when Christ came, and not before. Christ came to give eternal life to as many as would believe on His Name.

So give it a little consideration, and be glad to discuss this with you.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Can we assume our method of baptism is superior to Peter's?

Water baptism is merely symbolic. But yes, I think having a baptismal indoors in winter is a step in the right direction.




God bless.

 

[1689Dave]

Water baptism is merely symbolic. But yes, I think having a baptismal indoors in winter is a step in the right direction.




God bless.

But, Peter did not baptize literally in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. All of which are positions held by the members of the Godhead. He baptized in God's personal name, Jesus Christ. We do not follow Peter in this. We like the Pharisees replace God's word with our traditions.

 

[1689Dave]

After you have spent a little time on this forum you may see that too much preoccupation with Church History can have adverse effect, lol.

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit = new birth.

 

[Darrell C]

If you are born-again you are also baptized in the Holy Spirit.

You simply cannot be born again, a new creature, except you have been Baptized with the Holy Ghost, which is synonymous with being baptized into Christ. We are immersed into God in eternal union when we are saved, and because we are indwelt by God we are new creatures in the sense that now we have eternal life, and are no longer separated from God.

But you need refilling from time to time and this happens through repentance from known sin and by resisting the impulses of the flesh (mind/soul) and walking in the Spirit (heart).

Correct, we do need to be filled with the Holy Ghost, but, I do not limit this to a reward basis for obedience. JOnah is a good example, as is Paul of men being drafted to do God's will though they are in opposition to His will.

The Old Testament Saints were filled with the Spirit, but not eternally indwelt. This would not begin until Christ died for their sins, resurrected, returned to Heaven, and sent the Promised Spirit.

And as I mentioned in my first response to you, the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is defined by Peter as the event of salvation (through the Gospel of Christ). He and the Jews acknowledge that God has given them (Gentiles) the same Gift, salvation, as He gave them at the beginning (Pentecost, and that God has granted repentance unto (eternal) life.

In the OT the Spirit was with born again believers.

There is no passage in the Old Testament that shows men were ever born again. The strongest argument my antagonists (those I discuss and debate this with, not necessarily a negative term) is "Christ wouldn't have taught Nicodemus men must be born again if it couldn't happen." The obvious answer is that Christ also taught men they must believe on Him to receive eternal life, but until He died, resurrected, and arose, men had no context in which to believe on Him. He told the disciples to abide in Him (John 15) yet not one of them did.

So a weak argument at best, but, if you would like to support Regeneration in the Old Testament I am always looking for someone to present a Scriptural basis.

But since Pentecost he is IN believers.

That is correct. This coincides with Christ's statement...


Acts 1:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


This is what Peter remembers when Cornelius is saved.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

But, Peter did not baptize literally in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. All of which are positions held by the members of the Godhead. He baptized in God's personal name, Jesus Christ. We do not follow Peter in this. We like the Pharisees replace God's word with our traditions.

I am not sure we can say that for certain. We have the account of Luke, and as he recounts the Acts, it may be that he wanted to place the focus on Christ, from a physical viewpoint.

Secondly, I think the Disciples and Apostles would understand that God is One, therefore to Baptize in the Name of Jesus is to Baptize in the Name of God.


God bless.

 

[1689Dave]

You simply cannot be born again, a new creature, except you have been Baptized with the Holy Ghost, which is synonymous with being baptized into Christ. We are immersed into God in eternal union when we are saved, and because we are indwelt by God we are new creatures in the sense that now we have eternal life, and are no longer separated from God.



Correct, we do need to be filled with the Holy Ghost, but, I do not limit this to a reward basis for obedience. JOnah is a good example, as is Paul of men being drafted to do God's will though they are in opposition to His will.

The Old Testament Saints were filled with the Spirit, but not eternally indwelt. This would not begin until Christ died for their sins, resurrected, returned to Heaven, and sent the Promised Spirit.

And as I mentioned in my first response to you, the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is defined by Peter as the event of salvation (through the Gospel of Christ). He and the Jews acknowledge that God has given them (Gentiles) the same Gift, salvation, as He gave them at the beginning (Pentecost, and that God has granted repentance unto (eternal) life.




There is no passage in the Old Testament that shows men were ever born again. The strongest argument my antagonists (those I discuss and debate this with, not necessarily a negative term) is "Christ wouldn't have taught Nicodemus men must be born again if it couldn't happen." The obvious answer is that Christ also taught men they must believe on Him to receive eternal life, but until He died, resurrected, and arose, men had no context in which to believe on Him. He told the disciples to abide in Him (John 15) yet not one of them did.

So a weak argument at best, but, if you would like to support Regeneration in the Old Testament I am always looking for someone to present a Scriptural basis.




That is correct. This coincides with Christ's statement...


Acts 1:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


This is what Peter remembers when Cornelius is saved.


Continued...

If faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, how could Abraham not have been born again?

 

[1689Dave]

I am not sure we can say that for certain. We have the account of Luke, and as he recounts the Acts, it may be that he wanted to place the focus on Christ, from a physical viewpoint.

Secondly, I think the Disciples and Apostles would understand that God is One, therefore to Baptize in the Name of Jesus is to Baptize in the Name of God.


God bless.

So Scripture cannot be trusted?

 

[Darrell C]

I hope this helps, it took awhile for me to understand it with all of the confusion introduced by the Pentecostals.

It's not just Pentecostals and Charismatics engaged in confusion. Many Protestants and Evangelicals view the Baptism with the Holy Ghost as being a subsequent event to salvation. You are indwelt, they teach, but, you can also be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Thanks for the reply. I think church history (of course it is up for grabs) says they baptized in Jesus' name until the second century. And then the church at Rome changed it to what is common today. It's worth searching out.

Can I ask, if you don't see this as impacting salvation (which it doesn't, lol), why the issue bothers you?

Baptism of the Holy Spirit happened at Pentecost and is now part of the New Birth.

I cannot agree with that.

This would suggest men can be born again apart from Eternal Redemption.

And not one Old Testament Saint received Eternal Redemption until Christ died in their stead:


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

If faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, how could Abraham not have been born again?

Abraham had faith, there is no question, but, he was not eternally indwelt by God. The New Birth is a result of the indwelling of God.

Secondly, the Writer of Hebrews makes it clear in Hebrews 6:1-2 that general faith in God is no longer acceptable, but that we are to place faith in Jesus Christ.

Lastly, as already mentioned, the Spirit of God has always ministered in the hearts and lives of men. He has filled them for the purpose of ministries such as Prophet, Priest, and King, and has always been the One to enlighten men to spiritual truths. But, we cannot impose into those economies something Christ makes clear will take place when the Promises of God are bestowed unto men. The Comforter is the Promised Spirit of Old Testament Prophecy, and He did not come until Pentecost, and it is at that time the disciples begin to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


God bless.

 

[1689Dave]

It's not just Pentecostals and Charismatics engaged in confusion. Many Protestants and Evangelicals view the Baptism with the Holy Ghost as being a subsequent event to salvation. You are indwelt, they teach, but, you can also be baptized with the Holy Ghost.



Can I ask, if you don't see this as impacting salvation (which it doesn't, lol), why the issue bothers you?

If we begin placing traditions above scripture, does it matter?


I cannot agree with that.

This would suggest men can be born again apart from Eternal Redemption.

And not one Old Testament Saint received Eternal Redemption until Christ died in their stead:

Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. And he atoned for every believer of all time based on the impossibility of his death being thwarted in time.


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Continued...

"Can I ask, if you don't see this as impacting salvation (which it doesn't, lol), why the issue bothers you?"

If we begin placing traditions above scripture, does it matter?

"This would suggest men can be born again apart from Eternal Redemption."

"And not one Old Testament Saint received Eternal Redemption until Christ died in their stead:"

Jesus was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. And he atoned for every believer of all time based on the impossibility of his death being thwarted in time.

 

[Darrell C]

If you are born-again you are also baptized in the Holy Spirit.

I would just ask that you address the Scripture presented.

In case you don't know, this forum makes it very easy to quote someone. Just highlight what you want to respond to and you will see quote/reply pop up. If you hit quote, it will save what you highlighted, and you can go to the bottom of the page and hit Insert Quotes.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

But you need refilling from time to time and this happens through repentance from known sin and by resisting the impulses of the flesh (mind/soul) and walking in the Spirit (heart).

The way you phrase this almost implies that the Holy Ghost "leaks out," lol, though I am sure that is not your intended meaning.

The indwelling of God is a one time event that occurs at salvation, and is in fact our salvation, because the condition we are born in (separated from God) is remedied.

Being filled with the Holy Spirit is God empowering the believer for His intended ministry through that individual, and is not necessarily of our choosing, but corresponds with God's will in our lives. We can hamper that filling, such as Paul gives the example of drunkenness.

In the OT the Spirit was with born again believers.

You would have to show me a born again believer in the Old Testament, I have studied this issue for years and have never found one, nor had an antagonist show me anything (though I have been told often enough there are many, they just can't seem to find them, lol).

But since Pentecost he is IN believers.

Agreed.

I hope you will give the Scripture presented some thought, as this is one of the most important issues to be clear on.


God bless.

 

[1689Dave]

I would just ask that you address the Scripture presented.

In case you don't know, this forum makes it very easy to quote someone. Just highlight what you want to respond to and you will see quote/reply pop up. If you hit quote, it will save what you highlighted, and you can go to the bottom of the page and hit Insert Quotes.


Continued...

Thanks for the tip. Jesus told the disciples, who were born again and had faith proving it, the Holy Spirit was with them (as in the OT sense), and will be IN them. Both the NB and the Baptism are works of the Holy Spirit, but became one after Pentecost.

 

[1689Dave]

The way you phrase this almost implies that the Holy Ghost "leaks out," lol, though I am sure that is not your intended meaning.

The disciples had repeated fillings in Acts. "They were all filled with the Holy Spirit". "Be full of the Holy Spirit". Try living in sin and see how full of the Holy Spirit you are at that low ebb.

 

[1689Dave]

Abraham had faith, there is no question, but, he was not eternally indwelt by God. The New Birth is a result of the indwelling of God.

Secondly, the Writer of Hebrews makes it clear in Hebrews 6:1-2 that general faith in God is no longer acceptable, but that we are to place faith in Jesus Christ.

Lastly, as already mentioned, the Spirit of God has always ministered in the hearts and lives of men. He has filled them for the purpose of ministries such as Prophet, Priest, and King, and has always been the One to enlighten men to spiritual truths. But, we cannot impose into those economies something Christ makes clear will take place when the Promises of God are bestowed unto men. The Comforter is the Promised Spirit of Old Testament Prophecy, and He did not come until Pentecost, and it is at that time the disciples begin to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


God bless.

In the OT, the Holy Spirit was with believers and in Prophets.

Jesus is YHWH so faith has always been in him.

Pentecost was the arrival of the Kingdom of God in full force. And the Holy Spirit had a greater and more uniform presence in the hearts of the faithful.

 

[Darrell C]

Just one more, lol.

This statement seems to indicate a belief that when God took on the flesh of man that He did so in entirety (which creates the concept of the Throne of God being vacant during the Incarnation).

Is that what you are saying? If so, or, if not, could you explain what you mean by this statement in a little more detail, and I will take a look when I return.


God bless.

As far as Jesus the man, he is body, soul, and spirit just as we are. But, his spirit is the triune omnipresent God. He never stopped being omnipresent. But he sometimes spoke as a man, with man's limitations and frustrations. And sometimes he spoke as God without our limitations. Jesus wept. But he also created the universe.

Jesus was not omnipresent, He was limited to that space which His body took up.

The Throne of God was never vacant, and the Spirit continued to minister all over the world as He has always done.

It's not just a matter of God being in all places at once.


God bless.

 

[1689Dave]

Jesus was not omnipresent, He was limited to that space which His body took up.

The Throne of God was never vacant, and the Spirit continued to minister all over the world as He has always done.

It's not just a matter of God being in all places at once.


God bless.

God is omnipresent and does not change. Jesus is God. Only his mind and body had human limits when he enlisted them in his ministry. To say he was not omnipresent in his Spirit, is to say he was not God.

 

[Darrell C]

How does one go "back in time" while in Eternity, which is timeless? The concept of Eternity being timeless completely escapes you.

Again, today there are many people named Jesus but not one of them are said to be God the Son so, therefore, by your "logic" Jesus must not exist!

LOL! ROFLOL! Another "English Only" nonsensical comment. You are aware "Joshuah" and "Jesus" are the same name in different languages?

What other names don't you understand?

My dad was "William" to my grandmother, his mother, but "Guillermo" to my grandfather, his father. Same name. Different language. My maternal grandmother, my mothers mother, called him "Guillaume," she being French. Same name. Different language.

You have got to be trolling me. You can't possible be so dense you don't know "Joshua" and "Jesus" are the same name in different languages!

[Personal attack edited.]

[Personal attack edited.]

You are still refusing to address, or even quote the Scripture presented in the points raised, which makes it easy to wrest what I have said.

Again, show me Christ in the Old Testament in the Body that was created in Mary for the purpose of dying on the Cross.

God bless.