Baptismal Salvation?

[Jordan Kurecki]

Mar_1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Luk_3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

Act_2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I have a sister who goes to a church of Christ, and we often but heads on the doctrine of salvation. I have trouble with the above verses.

I have looked into the Greek behind the word for in the above verses and it the word Eis inplies foward motion towards something.

Would this not teach that Baptism is the point of salvation? How do we reconcile this with passages like Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, and Rom 3:28?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Mar_1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

This is not a baptism as is understood to be a public witness of the saving work of Christ, but is the Jewish tradition of purification. John explained that it was more than a ceremony, but a change of heart was necessary to partake in it. Not, however, the saving work of Christ, who had not yet revealed Himself, much less died on the cross.

Luk_3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

Same thing.

Act_2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The word "for" is the Greek eis which is also translated "because," or "because of."

It is the same in the English language. Posters seen all over the midwest 140 years ago said "Wanted: Jesse James, for bank robbery." Did they want Jesse to rob a bank? No, they wanted him because he robbed a bank.

 

[Tom Butler]

Seems to me that if baptism were necessary for salvation, it would be included in everhy verse which mentions the way to come into a right relationship with God.

John 3:16, for instance, does not mention baptism. Just belief/faith.
Same for Acts 16:31 "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved."
Romans 10:9 Call on the name of the Lord.
Romans 10:13. Confess the risen Christ as Lord

If baptism is essential to salvation, both Jesus and Paul erred badly in failing to mention it.

Just to name a few.

 

[kyredneck]

Baptismal Salvation

Never heard it called that before; always been Baptismal Regeneration.

This is not a baptism as is understood to be a public witness of the saving work of Christ, but is the Jewish tradition of purification. John explained that it was more than a ceremony, but a change of heart was necessary to partake in it. Not, however, the saving work of Christ, who had not yet revealed Himself, much less died on the cross.....

From Christ Himself AFTER the cross:

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. Mk 16

That's pretty plain, don't you think?

 

[Allan]

Never heard it called that before; always been Baptismal Regeneration.



From Christ Himself AFTER the cross:

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. Mk 16

That's pretty plain, don't you think?

Yep. Salvation is about faith.. baptism is our identification with Him because we HAVE BEEN eternally saved through faith.

 

[Zenas]

Would this not teach that Baptism is the point of salvation? How do we reconcile this with passages like Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, and Rom 3:28?

Jordan, there are many commentators (probably none Baptist) who equate Titus 3:5 with Christian baptism.

 

[kyredneck]

Yep. Salvation is about faith.. baptism is our identification with Him because we HAVE BEEN eternally saved through faith.

'He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...'

It sure looks like the equation there is, belief plus baptism equals salvation. Nothing about it being an 'identification'.

 

[kyredneck]

Yep. Salvation is about faith.. baptism is our identification with Him because we HAVE BEEN eternally saved through faith.

Isn't there an incantation that must be repeated also? I thought your equation went something along the lines of 'hearing plus faith plus confession equals salvation'.

Maybe CoC has it right, maybe the complete formula is actually 'hearing plus faith plus confession plus baptism equals salvation'?

 

[pinoybaptist]

'He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...'

It sure looks like the equation there is, belief plus baptism equals salvation. Nothing about it being an 'identification'.

y'all hav'n fun, aintcha, brother ?:smilewinkgrin:
might join ya in a li'l bit, assumin' my fair wife don't wan' come 'ome earlee.
hehe.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

1. He that believeth not is condemned... Unbelief is what condemns. Theoretically, that statement he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, is still true regardless of whether baptism is necessary or not.

Premise 1: Faith (belief) saves
Premise 2: I belief and have been baptized

Conclusion: I believe and have been baptized and will be saved.

I have a hard time seeing Titus 3:5 as being baptism.

and Tom Butler: I see what you're saying, But I can clearly see from scripture where Repentance is necessary for salvation but that is not addressed on those verses you mentioned either.

 

[Allan]

Isn't there an incantation that must be repeated also? I thought your equation went something along the lines of 'hearing plus faith plus confession equals salvation'.

Maybe CoC has it right, maybe the complete formula is actually 'hearing plus faith plus confession plus baptism equals salvation'?

There is no such thing as eternal salvation separate from faith, ever.

 

[preacher4truth]

1. He that believeth not is condemned...

You've left off the word 'already'. The lost are already condemned, now, before they have heard the Gospel. They are on their way to hell unless the Grace of God is bestowed upon them and He saves them (which are the elect). Albeit there are some on here who do not believe this truth and say they are only going to hell after they hear and aren't saved. I asked these to then never tell others their gospel since others aren't condemned until they hear it and don't receive it, so don't tell them and they'll 'gain' eternal life.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

You've left off the word 'already'. The lost are already condemned, now, before they have heard the Gospel. They are on their way to hell unless the Grace of God is bestowed upon them and He saves them (which are the elect). Albeit there are some on here who do not believe this truth and say they are only going to hell after they hear and aren't saved. I asked these to then never tell others their gospel since others aren't condemned until they hear it and don't receive it, so don't tell them and they'll 'gain' eternal life.

Actually it's he that believeth not is condemned is what the verse says in the KJV, but we aren't going to get into translation arguments.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

Not sure if you will all be able to see this link but here is a link to a note I put up on facebook, it my analysis of Baptismal Regeneration:

https://www.facebook.com/notes/jordan-kurecki/water-baptismal-salvation/201155766711031

 

[preacher4truth]

Actually it's he that believeth not is condemned is what the verse says in the KJV, but we aren't going to get into translation arguments.

Actually it is this:

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

Actually it is this:

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18

I was referring to
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

lol.

 

[preacher4truth]

I was referring to
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

lol.

lol...

You used condemned, it is necessary for you to switch to another verse as the former quotation from you reflected John not Mark. We're picky around here and tend to use the words people use, not what they 'meant' to use.

My point was only this, that the lost are condemned now, not at some point in the future after rejection, but right now. And as in Mark their damnation shall come to actual fulfillment, which is another subject altogether.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

lol...

You used condemned, it is necessary for you to switch to another verse as the former quotation from you reflected John not Mark. We're picky around here and tend to use the words people use, not what they 'meant' to use.

My point was only this, that the lost are condemned now, not at some point in the future after rejection, but right now. And as in Mark their damnation shall come to actual fulfillment, which is another subject altogether.

how does this relate to the OP?

 

[preacher4truth]

how does this relate to the OP?

I see you understand the difference.

It relates to the OP in this way, those that are condemned are now condemned, and those who believe and are baptized shall be saved. Those who are His are obedient to Him will be baptized. I don't believe in disobedient salvation, or belief 'alone' and not following Christ, whether in disobeying Him to be baptized, or in His other commands, and yet fully expecting to get to heaven. His sheep follow Him, and this makes things apparent.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

I see you understand the difference.

It relates to the OP in this way, those that are condemned are now condemned, and those who believe and are baptized shall be saved. Those who are His are obedient to Him will be baptized. I don't believe in disobedient salvation, or belief 'alone' and not following Christ, whether in disobeying Him to be baptized, or in His other commands, and yet fully expecting to get to heaven. His sheep follow Him, and this makes things apparent.

I would agree with this. But does that really mean Baptism is necesary for Salvation? If someone is trusting in Baptism to save them, is that not works salvation? Where I butt heads with the CoC people is that I believe they may be causing some to misplace their trust. If Salvation is by grace through faith, isn't it the that initial step of faith and repentance that begins in ones mind and heart and not beginning water immersion?