Baptist attitude toward Muslims

[paidagogos]

I am interesting in hearing anyone's take on a Baptist stance toward Islam in light of the publication of A Common Word Between Us and You by Muslim clerics and the signing of the so-called Christian response, Loving God and Neighbor Together: A Christian Response to A Common Word Between Us and You, by Timothy George, Dean, Beeson Divinity School, Samford University.

I realize that Dr. George is ecumenical, meanwhile attempting to maintain Biblical fidelity, but this is this taking matters a little too far--it is disturbing. This smells of a postmodern attitude of all roads lead to God where all religious seekers are piligrims together. Can we accept such an attitude and still be Christian? Can we speak words of accommodation to the Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist and be faithful to the Scriptures? Where does this leave our evangelism? Our missions?

Also, you may be interested in hearing John Piper's opinion at http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/1032_a_common_word_between_us/

What do you think?

 

[Rex77]

Am 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?

 

[The Scribe]

I realize that Dr. George is where all religious seekers are piligrims together. Can we accept such an attitude and still be Christian?

No, we can't accept that type of an attitude.

We have nothing in common with the Muslims.

Can we speak words of accommodation to the Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist and be faithful to the Scriptures?

Nope...

Where does this leave our evangelism? Our missions?

Mark 16:15-16 (KJV)
15: And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. Here are the links for those interested as well as some highlight quotes.

A Common Word between Us and You

Muslims and Christians together make up well over half of the world’s population. Without peace and justice between these two religious communities, there can be no meaningful peace in the world.
...
The basis for this peace and understanding already exists. It is part of the very foundational principles of both faiths: love of the One God, and love of the neighbour.
...
(I) Love of God
(II) Love of the Neighbor
(III) Come to a common word between Us and You
...
Whilst Islam and Christianity are obviously different religions—and whilst there is no minimising some of their formal differences—it is clear that the Two Greatest Commandments are an area of common ground and a link between the Qur’an, the Torah and the New Testament.
...
As Muslims, we say to Christians that we are not against them and that Islam is not against them—so long as they do not wage war against Muslimson account of their religion, oppress them and drive them out of their homes
...
We therefore invite Christians to consider Muslims not against and thus with them, in accordance with Jesus Christ’s words here.


Finally, as Muslims, and in obedience to the Holy Qur’an, we ask Christians to come together with us on the common essentials of our two religions.
...
Let this common ground be the basis of all future interfaith dialogue between us, for our common ground is that on which hangs all the Law and the Prophets (Matthew 22:40)
...
So let our differences not cause hatred and strife between us. Let us vie with each other only in righteousness and good works. Let us respect each other, be fair, just and kind to another and live in sincere peace, harmony and mutual goodwill.

*bolding added by me*

Signatories include 138 muslim leaders from around the world.




paidagogos makes reference to one of many Christian responses to this piece.

Loving God and Neighbor Together:A Christian Response to A Common Word Between Us and You

...
In this response we extend our own Christian hand in return, so that together with all other human beings we may live in peace and justice as we seek to love God and our neighbors.
...
That this common ground consists in love of God and of neighbor, gives hope that deep cooperation between us can be a hallmark of the relations between our two communities.
...
Since Muslims seek to love their Christian neighbors, they are not against them, the document encouragingly states. Instead, Muslims are with them. As Christians we resonate deeply with this sentiment. Our faith teaches that we must be with our neighbors—indeed, that we must act in their favor—even when our neighbors turn out to be our enemies.
...
Indeed, together with you we believe that we need to move beyond “a polite ecumenical dialogue between selected religious leaders” and work diligently together to reshape relations between our communities and our nations so that they genuinely reflect our common love for God and for one another.
...
It is with humility and hope that we receive your generous letter, and we commit ourselves to labor together in heart, soul, mind and strength for the objectives you so appropriately propose.

...
Harold W. Attridge, Dean and Lillian Claus Professor of New Testament, Yale Divinity School
Miroslav Volf, Founder and Director of the Yale Center for Faith and Culture, Henry B. Wright Professor of Theology, Yale University
Joseph Cumming, Director of the Reconciliation Program, Yale Center for Faith and Culture
Emilie M. Townes, Andrew Mellon Professor of African American Religion and Theology and president-elect of the American Academy of Religion

Timothy George was one of a long list of signatories and not the author.


I applaud both statements.

 

[JerryL]

Albert Mohler went through this on his radio program I was listening to last week or the week before. He went through how we aren't on common ground because we serve different Gods. I can't remember all he said but he ended with he wouldn't sign the petition if he was asked.

Link http://www.albertmohler.com/radio_show.php?cdate=2008-01-08

 

[Gold Dragon]

Loving God and Neighbor Together: A Christian Response to A Common Word Between Us and You,

Some of the notable signatories that you should probably direct your rhetoric against include:

Rev. Dr. John Stott, Rector Emeritus, All Souls Church, Langham Place, London, UK
George Verwer, Founder and former International Director, OM
Bill Hybels, Founder and Senior Pastor, Willow Creek Community Church, South Barrington, IL
Rick Warren, Founder and Senior Pastor, Saddleback Church, and The Purpose Driven Life, Lake Forest, CA
Brian D. McLaren, Author, Speaker, Activist

 

[donnA]

We have noting in common with muslims, and should not even seek common ground with them unless it involves them committing to Christ and leaving islam.

 

[Linda64]

I am interesting in hearing anyone's take on a Baptist stance toward Islam in light of the publication of A Common Word Between Us and You by Muslim clerics and the signing of the so-called Christian response, Loving God and Neighbor Together: A Christian Response to A Common Word Between Us and You, by Timothy George, Dean, Beeson Divinity School, Samford University.

There is no true "loving God and Neighbor Together" without Christ. Muslims do not believe in the diety of Christ nor are they a religion of "peace".

I realize that Dr. George is ecumenical, meanwhile attempting to maintain Biblical fidelity, but this is this taking matters a little too far--it is disturbing. This smells of a postmodern attitude of all roads lead to God where all religious seekers are piligrims together.

It is an attitude of "tolerance" and ignorance of biblical truth. True biblical unity is based on biblical truth. "Tolerance" repudiates and compromises biblical doctrine. (2 Timothy 4:1-4).

Can we accept such an attitude and still be Christian? Can we speak words of accommodation to the Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist and be faithful to the Scriptures? Where does this leave our evangelism? Our missions?

If Christians "love" the Muslims, they would not hide their lights under a bushel...instead they would witness the love of Christ. God loves the Muslims...they need the Christ to save them. Instead of "dialogue"...share the Christ of the Bible. "Tolerance" will send people to a Christless eternity. That is not love...love will share the Gospel...because "the love of Christ constraineth us" (2 Corinthians 5:14)

Also, you may be interested in hearing John Piper's opinion at http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/1032_a_common_word_between_us/

What do you think?

Very good message by John Piper!

All this stuff (dialoguing) with false religions and liberals is sending the wrong message. Living together in a false unity is NOT the answer. Where in scripture does it say we are to dialogue with the lost in order to find "common ground"? Scripture tell us to "preach the Gospel to every creature." (Mark 16:15)

 

[dcorbett]

Whoever said that we have common ground with Muslims is not saved and will burn for eternity. We have no common ground - and unless they are willing to admit they are sinners and that Christ is their only hope, we have nothing to share with them.

I don't want them dead, I want to see them saved. THEY want to see me dead. Period.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Whoever said that we have common ground with Muslims is not saved and will burn for eternity.

If you want the job of judging who will burn for eternity, I think you might have some competition from the Big Guy upstairs.

 

[The Scribe]

If you want the job of judging who will burn for eternity, I think you might have some competition from the Big Guy upstairs.

Matthew 7:16-23 (KJV)
16: Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17: Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18: A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19: Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20: Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
:saint:

 

[KJVkid]

If you want the job of judging who will burn for eternity, I think you might have some competition from the Big Guy upstairs.gold dragon

If you are referring to Allah, I wouldn't say he is "upstairs".

If you are refering to God you are MOST disrespectful

 

[Linda64]

If you want the job of judging who will burn for eternity, I think you might have some competition from the Big Guy upstairs.

First of all, I don't consider God to be "the Big Guy upstairs". He is the Creator and Sustainer of the universe. His Name is above all names. The Bible never calls Him "the Big Guy upstairs"---

Philippians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Philippians 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

When anyone (including Muslims) rejects God's gift of salvation in Christ, they are ALREADY judged by God. They are ALREADY under God's wrath. We don't say so, God says so!

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Being "tolerant" is NOT love. Jesus told Peter to "feed My sheep".

 

[Gold Dragon]

Apparently I've offended some sensitive folks so I will restate my post in a manner more politically correct on the Baptist board.

Whoever said that we have common ground with Muslims is not saved and will burn for eternity.

If you want the job of judging who will burn for eternity, I think you might have some competition from Yahweh, the Lord Almighty who is Judge of all His creation.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Matthew 7:16-23 (KJV)
16: Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17: Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18: A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19: Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20: Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
:saint:

Amen! Many who call on God's name will not enter into the kingdom and Christ will judge who that is, not dcorbett or those who agree with dcorbett's positions.

 

[JerryL]

Because we belong to different religions and serve different gods doesn't mean we have to force our beliefs on them to be able to live in peace. If I get a muslim next door neighbor I could definitely live in peace with him and be friends. I wouldn't sign that paper though, because it insinuates that we serve the same god but with different saviours. There is also a difference in the "radical" muslims and the everyday muslims you meet on the street.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Because we belong to different religions and serve different gods doesn't mean we have to force our beliefs on them to be able to live in peace. If I get a muslim next door neighbor I could definitely live in peace with him and be friends.

Agreed. And I believe that to be the main thrust of the paper that all Christians should support.

I wouldn't sign that paper though, because it insinuates that we serve the same god but with different saviours.

I would describe the paper as wisely side-stepping the issue that both sides agree that we do not serve the same god. Taking on that issue would be counterproductive to concept that there are commonalities between Christianity and Islam that we can peacefully agree about.

And in case folks were wondering, I believe the Allah of Islam to be a false god that is entirely different from the Allah (arabic for God) of Christianity, Yahweh.

 

[JerryL]

Agreed. And I believe that to be the main thrust of the paper that all Christians should support.

I would describe the paper as wisely side-stepping the issue that both sides agree that we do not serve the same god. Taking on that issue would be counterproductive to concept that there are commonalities between Christianity and Islam that we can peacefully agree about.

And in case folks were wondering, I believe the Allah of Islam to be a false god that is entirely different from the Allah (arabic for God) of Christianity, Yahweh.

I definitely believe in the living in peace premise of the paper. The Piper video is a little harsh in where he says the only way we can live in peace with them is for them to convert to Christianity. If that is the case we would have to throw away a lot of friends and friendly aqaintances in our lives.

 

[KenH]

THEY want to see me dead.

Very few Muslims want to see you dead. It is bigoted to paint with such a broad brush.

 

[paidagogos]

A specifically Baptist thread..........

Some of the notable signatories that you should probably direct your rhetoric against include:

Rev. Dr. John Stott, Rector Emeritus, All Souls Church, Langham Place, London, UK
George Verwer, Founder and former International Director, OM
Bill Hybels, Founder and Senior Pastor, Willow Creek Community Church, South Barrington, IL
Rick Warren, Founder and Senior Pastor, Saddleback Church, and The Purpose Driven Life, Lake Forest, CA
Brian D. McLaren, Author, Speaker, Activist

I chose Timothy George as a Baptist representative because this is a Baptist thread. Also, Dr. George is often identified as one committed to Biblical faithfulness although largely ecumenical in spirit. The others, including sometimes Baptist Rick Warren, are not representative of a Baptist viewpoint, I think. But, I was wondering how Dr. George could reconcil the signing of the document with a strong Biblical stance. IMHO, there is an apparent contradiction. It is bound up in how we view truth and if the Bible is truth. Can someone please explain it to me.

BTW, McLaren is representative of the Emergent Church which would see no problem with the Christian-Muslim accord.

Does this indicate a compromise of Biblical truth and the view of truth in the name of love and tolerance? If we believe that truth exists, it is knowable, and the Bible is the source of truth, then how can we tolerate a system of teachings (i.e. Islamic doctrine) that contradicts that truth and condemns souls to everlasting damnation?

We need to think through the longterm implications of "tolerance" in evangelism and missions. What do you say?