Baptist attitude toward Muslims

[Magnetic Poles]

I don't want them dead, I want to see them saved. THEY want to see me dead. Period.

Us vs. Them. The first step toward genocide.

 

[Gold Dragon]

I chose Timothy George as a Baptist representative because this is a Baptist thread. Also, Dr. George is often identified as one committed to Biblical faithfulness although largely ecumenical in spirit.
..
But, I was wondering how Dr. George could reconcil the signing of the document with a strong Biblical stance. IMHO, there is an apparent contradiction. It is bound up in how we view truth and if the Bible is truth. Can someone please explain it to me.

I don't really know George but thanks for sharing that.

The others, including sometimes Baptist Rick Warren, are not representative of a Baptist viewpoint, I think.
BTW, McLaren is representative of the Emergent Church which would see no problem with the Christian-Muslim accord.

I remember you to be a ardent critic of the seeker-sensitive movement and Warren in particular so I thought I'd give you a hand.

Does this indicate a compromise of Biblical truth and the view of truth in the name of love and tolerance? If we believe that truth exists, it is knowable, and the Bible is the source of truth, then how can we tolerate a system of teachings (i.e. Islamic doctrine) that contradicts that truth and condemns souls to everlasting damnation?

We need to think through the longterm implications of "tolerance" in evangelism and missions. What do you say?

I don't see a problem with saying that I believe Yahweh and the Bible to be true while Allah and Islam are false and still recognizing that there are some commonalities between us.

I also don't believe evangelising any non-Christian requires any hostility towards themselves or their belief system. We can be honest about the differences between our belief systems and still believe the Good News of Christ to be right and better without the attitudes of arrogance and oppression that is characterstic of the middle ages. The first century church did it by dying in scores before an oppressive and arrogant belief system and as a consequence, became the largest religious group in the Roman Empire.

 

[Allan]

Us vs. Them. The first step toward genocide.

You actually mean evolution, don't you MP

 

[donnA]

Apparently I've offended some sensitive folks so I will restate my post in a manner more politically correct on the Baptist board.


If you want the job of judging who will burn for eternity, I think you might have some competition from Yahweh, the Lord Almighty who is Judge of all His creation.

According to scripture, people who deny Jesus, deny He is the Christ, the Son of God, will got ot hell. If we believe scripture then we can safely say this. No one denying Him will be in heaven.

 

[donnA]

Very few Muslims want to see you dead. It is bigoted to paint with such a broad brush.

Then they do not beleive their own holy book, which commands the death of anyone who refuses to convert to islam.

 

[Gold Dragon]

According to scripture, people who deny Jesus, deny He is the Christ, the Son of God, will got ot hell. If we believe scripture then we can safely say this. No one denying Him will be in heaven.

Read again who dcorbett is condemning.

Whoever said that we have common ground with Muslims is not saved and will burn for eternity.

His condemnation includes those who believe in Christ but suggest there is common ground between Christians and Muslims. According to him/her, your view of Muslims determines your fate in eternity, a position found nowhere in scripture.

I have no problem stating that scripture says that those who deny Christ will go to hell, including Muslims.

 

[Rachel]

I am interesting in hearing anyone's take on a Baptist stance toward Islam in light of the publication of A Common Word Between Us and You by Muslim clerics and the signing of the so-called Christian response, Loving God and Neighbor Together: A Christian Response to A Common Word Between Us and You, by Timothy George, Dean, Beeson Divinity School, Samford University.

I realize that Dr. George is ecumenical, meanwhile attempting to maintain Biblical fidelity, but this is this taking matters a little too far--it is disturbing. This smells of a postmodern attitude of all roads lead to God where all religious seekers are piligrims together. Can we accept such an attitude and still be Christian? Can we speak words of accommodation to the Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist and be faithful to the Scriptures? Where does this leave our evangelism? Our missions?

Also, you may be interested in hearing John Piper's opinion at http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/1032_a_common_word_between_us/

What do you think?

I agree completely with Dr. Piper. Excellent video. :thumbs: I enjoy his preaching too.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I have some Muslim friends, and as persons, I find nothing by way of major differences between them and myself.
They love their families, they love their children, they are concerned and work for food on the table, roof above their heads, clothing on their backs.
We share laughters together, joke with each other, poke fun at each other.
I had a Muslim friend once who would drop by the house with a little cash for me when he knew I was between jobs, a favor I returned when he was between jobs.
But I only trust them as individuals.
I will feel very uncomfortable and very on guard, if I were in a collectively Muslim area, even if I am with one of the friends I spoke about, and that is because to them I am still an infidel, an unbeliever, to be converted at all costs in any way, or killed.
As for their religion, I know Jehovah is true, and Allah is false, the Bible is true, and the Koran is false.
But we know they say the same things about us.
But does God not have His people among them too ?
He does, and He will reach them, call them effectually, glorify them, and bring them to Himself when the time comes, and I can say the same of any creed or theology.
That is not to say I will now bend the knee alongside them, though.

 

[paidagogos]

I have some Muslim friends, and as persons, I find nothing by way of major differences between them and myself.
They love their families, they love their children, they are concerned and work for food on the table, roof above their heads, clothing on their backs.
We share laughters together, joke with each other, poke fun at each other.
I had a Muslim friend once who would drop by the house with a little cash for me when he knew I was between jobs, a favor I returned when he was between jobs.
But I only trust them as individuals.
I will feel very uncomfortable and very on guard, if I were in a collectively Muslim area, even if I am with one of the friends I spoke about, and that is because to them I am still an infidel, an unbeliever, to be converted at all costs in any way, or killed.

It appears that you are speaking of them as human beings, not as adherents to a false religion. I do not see anyone advocating the denial of friendship or the rights accorded all human beings.

As for their religion, I know Jehovah is true, and Allah is false, the Bible is true, and the Koran is false.
But we know they say the same things about us.
But does God not have His people among them too ?

What do you mean by this last statement? Are you saying that some Muslims are partakers of salvation along with Christians?

He does, and He will reach them, call them effectually, glorify them, and bring them to Himself when the time comes, and I can say the same of any creed or theology.

Again, what do you mean? Are you saying that some Muslims and other religions will come to faith in Christ and become Christians? Or, are you saying that Muslims and other religions will become partakers of salvation without faith in Christ and becoming Christians?

That is not to say I will now bend the knee alongside them, though.

 

[paidagogos]

Us vs. Them. The first step toward genocide.

Hogwash! Us and them is also the first step toward genocide. It ends in a gray mass of protoplasm without identity. Think about it.

 

[paidagogos]

Define your terms

I don't really know George but thanks for sharing that.

I remember you to be a ardent critic of the seeker-sensitive movement and Warren in particular so I thought I'd give you a hand.

What do you mean by "ardent critic?" Does disagreeing with ideas or practices make one an "ardent critic?" Do we deny our own beliefs and reasoned conclusions in the name of tolerance and love? This is not tolerance or love.

I don't see a problem with saying that I believe Yahweh and the Bible to be true while Allah and Islam are false and still recognizing that there are some commonalities between us.

What is the purpose of finding commonalities? Why should this interest us at all?

I also don't believe evangelising any non-Christian requires any hostility towards themselves or their belief system. We can be honest about the differences between our belief systems and still believe the Good News of Christ to be right and better without the attitudes of arrogance and oppression that is characterstic of the middle ages. The first century church did it by dying in scores before an oppressive and arrogant belief system and as a consequence, became the largest religious group in the Roman Empire.

No, but this is a postmodern assumption because hard-core postmodernism will not admit to the superiority of any belief or system over any other. To practice evangelism or missions is to express superiority and a latent hostility.

How do you establish that Christianity is the right way and ought to replace Islam? If I read you correctly, you are reasoning from a soft postmodernism paradigm--perhaps I misunderstood you.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

I will feel very uncomfortable and very on guard, if I were in a collectively Muslim area, even if I am with one of the friends I spoke about, and that is because to them I am still an infidel, an unbeliever, to be converted at all costs in any way, or killed.

And what kind of friendship is this a basis for? If I thought one of my friends wanted to convert or kill me, I'd say they were not my friend.

 

[blackbird]

Islam is antichrist!!

He who denies the Son---denies also who?? The Father!!!

Islam is a religion of God deniers!!!

And what fellowship has light with darkness??

Our plea to those of the Islamic religion??? Repent---turn away from false god to the true, living God, the Lord Jesus Christ!!

 

[pinoybaptist]

And what kind of friendship is this a basis for? If I thought one of my friends wanted to convert or kill me, I'd say they were not my friend.

Jesus knew Judas was going to betray him, and yet He called him His friend, remember ?
Fragile as it iwas, it had been a friendship between us.
And as to converting, have you not had a thought of converting Muslims ?
Do you admit then, that you are their enemy because you desire to have Muslims convert to your faith ?

 

[Danny Hurley]

Danny

Muslims are enemys of the cross. well saith the scriptures, John 3-17,18, 19,20,21. For God sent his not son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned; but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

 

[Gold Dragon]

What do you mean by "ardent critic?" Does disagreeing with ideas or practices make one an "ardent critic?"

Meriam Webster: ardent : characterized by warmth of feeling typically expressed in eager zealous support or activity.

No, but this is a postmodern assumption because hard-core postmodernism will not admit to the superiority of any belief or system over any other. To practice evangelism or missions is to express superiority and a latent hostility.

How do you establish that Christianity is the right way and ought to replace Islam? If I read you correctly, you are reasoning from a soft postmodernism paradigm--perhaps I misunderstood you.

I don't think there is anything particularly postmodern about my statement, just simple human decency. If you require hostility to evangelize, well --- good luck with that.

However I have always identified on this board as being a strong supporter of postmodernism and the emergent church. Feel free to show your hostility to that position as you see fit.

 

[lbaker]

Aren't the Islamic and Jewish concepts of God very similar? They both deny the divinity of Jesus, right? So, does that mean we should consider the Jewish God a false God also?

By the way, how in the world are we going to convert Muslims (or anyone else) if we don't talk to them and interact with them. Do we think they're just going to read a brilliant post on BB and spontaneously convert?

 

[blackbird]

Aren't the Islamic and Jewish concepts of God very similar? They both deny the divinity of Jesus, right? So, does that mean we should consider the Jewish God a false God also?

To deny the divinity of Jesus---is to deny the Father

The muslims--as well as the Jew are God deniers

Worse than serving a false god is to deny the true God, the Lord Jesus Christ!!!

 

[Linda64]

Aren't the Islamic and Jewish concepts of God very similar? They both deny the divinity of Jesus, right? So, does that mean we should consider the Jewish God a false God also?

By the way, how in the world are we going to convert Muslims (or anyone else) if we don't talk to them and interact with them. Do we think they're just going to read a brilliant post on BB and spontaneously convert?

I was born and raised in the Jewish religion. I was born again in March, 1974. While I was growing up, I was taught that Jesus was a great prophet and teacher, but not God. However, the lady who lead me to the Lord in 1974 didn't water down the gospel and was extremely knowledgeable about the Jewish religion and actually knew more than I did about my own religion. She told me that the Jews rejected Christ because He didn't set up His earthly kingdom and save them from the power of Rome.

We are unable to "convert" anybody, including the Muslims through "dialogue" and "tolerance". They need to hear the true gospel---not a gospel of "tolerance". Jesus died for all, including the Muslims. Unless they trust Jesus' sacrifice for them, they will end up in a Christless eternity.

 

[Gold Dragon]

to be converted at all costs in any way, or killed.

Have your muslim friends told you this?