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Baptist Doctrine of the Resurrection of the Dead

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OldRegular

Well-Known Member
One cannot conclusively determine from that confession that it was teaching a General Confession.

I did not reference that Confession as one that taught a General resurrection and Judgment {My post #3}. The version I linked in the preceding post #39 was the 1646 revision. In fact if you would read carefully it is spelled out in my post #39 above! The initial 1644 version did not mention the resurrection other than that of Jesus Christ! If you want to educate yourself then you can get Lumpkin's book!

Actually the article you quote does teach a general resurrection and judgment if read without the dispensational bias!
LII.
There shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust, and everyone shall give an account of himself to God, that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Acts 24:15; 1 Cor. 5:10; Rom. 14:12. [Matt. 25; Rev. 22:11,12,13,14,15.]

"A resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust," is A, as in one, resurrection.
 
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Jerome

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
How about we set aside OR's mischaracterization of Baptists' doctrine and look at how these Baptists themselves more fully explained their doctrine.

Here's how prominent Baptist pastor and signer of both the First and Second London Baptist Confessions Hanserd Knollys explained the resurrection in his book The World that Now is; and the World that is to Come:

The Resurrection of the Dead hath this Order, and is described by the Apostle in this manner, to wit, Christ first, I. Cor. 15. 22, 23, 24. afterwards they that are Christ's at his Coming. But the rest of the Dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished, Rev. 20. 5, 6. This is the first Resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first Resurrection. They shall reign with Christ a thousand years, and that on Earth, Rev. 5. 9, 10.

After the Saints are raised, and have lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years, shall be the general Resurrection, Rev. 20. 12, 13.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
How about we set aside OR's mischaracterization of Baptists' doctrine and look at how these Baptists themselves more fully explained their doctrine.

Here's how prominent Baptist pastor and signer of both the First and Second London Baptist Confessions Hanserd Knollys explained the resurrection in his book The World that Now is; and the World that is to Come:

At least be honest. I did not mischaracterize anything but simply quoted the confessions. If you don't agree with the confessions that is your prerogative.

It is not unlikely that there were premillennialists among the Baptists of that time but historic or covenant premillennialism is a long way from dispensationalism. It is also likely that the person you cited was a minority opinion or the confessions would have been written to espouse his views.

I would also note that the quote you present is misleading.

The Resurrection of the Dead hath this Order, and is described by the Apostle in this manner, to wit, Christ first, I. Cor. 15. 22, 23, 24. afterwards they that are Christ's at his Coming. But the rest of the Dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished, Rev. 20. 5, 6. This is the first Resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first Resurrection. They shall reign with Christ a thousand years, and that on Earth, Rev. 5. 9, 10.

Notice: "The Resurrection of the Dead hath this Order, and is described by the Apostle in this manner, to wit, Christ first, I. Cor. 15. 22, 23, 24. afterwards they that are Christ's at his Coming. But the rest of the Dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished,". Now this man implies that the Apostle Paul says "But the rest of the Dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished,"! That is certainly misleading, perhaps not intentionally, particularly to those who are not conversant with Scripture.
 
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Jerome

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sigh. No Hansard Knollys was not being misleading. That you're misreading is more likely. You're grasping at straws now.

His fuller explanation only conflicts with your mischaracterization of the Confessions.

Knollys was quite prominent among 1600s English Baptists. He called the 1689 Assembly and was the first to sign its Confession.
 
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OldRegular

Well-Known Member
His fuller explanation only conflicts with your mischaracterization of the Confessions

I really see no point in your dishonesty. You know the above is false.

I simply take the wording of the confessions literally or at "face value" as some like to say! I would also note that Confessions are generally written to be understood literally since their purpose is to set forth the writers' understanding of what Scripture teaches.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
First, I will debate you, not Ice or Walvoord. As you say, they are other dispensationalists. I am not interested in what other dispensationalists. say. You are not interested in learning either. Forget about what they say. They don't have the Bible under lock and key. They aren't God's spokesmen for our position.

Scripture teaches that God deals with mankind through covenants not dispensations. That is an indisputable Biblical fact. However, as I have noted many times dispensationalism is a schooled doctrine. It must be taught because it does not come directly from Scripture. The word dispensation does not even occur in the Old Testament.

DHK, You dismiss Ice and Walvoord, and have previously dismissed Darby, Scofield, Ryrie and numerous others, as spokesman for the Dispensational doctrine. Are you taking on that task for yourself.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Scripture teaches that God deals with mankind through covenants not dispensations. That is an indisputable Biblical fact. However, as I have noted many times dispensationalism is a schooled doctrine. It must be taught because it does not come directly from Scripture. The word dispensation does not even occur in the Old Testament.
God has used covenants in the past. That is true.
However, God has worked in time through dispensations. He didn't always use that exact word, but he described it as such:

Hebrews 1:1 God, having in the past spoken to the fathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 has at the end of these days spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds. (WEB)
--In the past he spoke (at many times [dispensations]) to the fathers through the prophets. That was the OT.
However, now (in these days), the age of grace, he speaks to us through his son, who is revealed to us through the written Word.
This is dispensational.
DHK, You dismiss Ice and Walvoord, and have previously dismissed Darby, Scofield, Ryrie and numerous others, as spokesman for the Dispensational doctrine. Are you taking on that task for yourself.
Yes, I take that task upon myself. I read the Bible more than any other book. I don't say that other books are not beneficial, but the Bible is the only one that is inspired. The others are only helpful. You will find that I rarely quote from them--I do, but rarely compared to yourself.
The Bible is my authority.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
God has used covenants in the past. That is true.
However, God has worked in time through dispensations. He didn't always use that exact word, but he described it as such:

Hebrews 1:1 God, having in the past spoken to the fathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 has at the end of these days spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds. (WEB)
--In the past he spoke (at many times [dispensations]) to the fathers through the prophets. That was the OT.
However, now (in these days), the age of grace, he speaks to us through his son, who is revealed to us through the written Word.
This is dispensational.

That is eisegesis at its worst, Period. If you are unfamiliar with that word you can look it up.

Yes, I take that task upon myself. I read the Bible more than any other book. I don't say that other books are not beneficial, but the Bible is the only one that is inspired. The others are only helpful. You will find that I rarely quote from them--I do, but rarely compared to yourself.
The Bible is my authority.

You are to be commended for studying the Bible. However, you should let Scripture speak to you rather than you speaking to Scripture as you do in the above passages from Hebrews.

It is utter nonsense to attempt a defense of dispensationalism using Hebrews 1 and 2. There is no way that "many times and in various ways" can be twisted into 5 dispensations or whatever number. God did speak to the prophets many times, perhaps that is what some call progressive revelation. God did speak to the prophets in many ways, sometimes through dreams [Joseph], sometimes through visions [Daniel], and sometimes verbally [Abraham, Moses].

Jesus Christ, the Messiah, told the unbelieving Jews: John 10:30. I and my Father are one.

Jesus Christ, the Messiah, told his doubting disciples:
John 14:6-11
6. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10. Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake..


Perhaps those two passages will help you better understand Hebrews 1 & 2! But again, it is essential that we study Scripture but you must let Scripture speak to you rather than you speaking to Scripture!
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
That is eisegesis at its worst, Period. If you are unfamiliar with that word you can look it up.
Heb.1:1,2 is what it is. I explained it to you; you complained about it to me. Your rejection of it is simply a rejection of the foundation of dispesationalism in the Bible.
You are to be commended for studying the Bible. However, you should let Scripture speak to you rather than you speaking to Scripture as you do in the above passages from Hebrews.
I speak about Scripture; comment on Scripture.
Perhaps you are a mystic and somehow spiritually absorb the Word.
I study it, and ask the Lord for help while doing so.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
I'll quote from your favorite author, John MacArthur:
"at sundry times" or "various times" The meaning is "many portions" (as of books). Over the course of possibly 1,800 years (from Job ca. 2300 B.C. to Nehemiah (ca. 400 B.C.) the OT was written in 39 different books reflecting different historical times, locations, cultures, and situations.

"Various ways" These included visionhs, symbols, and parables, written in both poetry and prose. It was always God's revelation of what He wanted His people to know. The progressive revelation of the OT described God's program of redemption (1Pet.1:10-12) and His will for His people (Rom.15:4; 2Tim.3:16,17)
Reading MacArthur's comments one can see that God spoke to different men in different times in different ways--the basis of dispensationalism.
It is utter nonsense to attempt a defense of dispensationalism using Hebrews 1 and 2. There is no way that "many times and in various ways" can be twisted into 5 dispensations or whatever number. God did speak to the prophets many times, perhaps that is what some call progressive revelation. God did speak to the prophets in many ways, sometimes through dreams [Joseph], sometimes through visions [Daniel], and sometimes verbally [Abraham, Moses].
Who said "five times"? Not me.
It gives the basis that God spoke in different ways at different times to His people. That fact cannot be denied.
Jesus Christ, the Messiah, told the unbelieving Jews: John 10:30. I and my Father are one.

Jesus Christ, the Messiah, told his doubting disciples:
John 14:6-11
6. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10. Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake..


Perhaps those two passages will help you better understand Hebrews 1 & 2! But again, it is essential that we study Scripture but you must let Scripture speak to you rather than you speaking to Scripture!
There is no one on this board that I know of that denies the deity of Christ. Thus your Scripture is irrelevant.
I study the Scripture. Study to show yourselves approved unto God, workmen that need not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.
I am not a mystic awaiting some mysterious voice to talk to me.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Heb.1:1,2 is what it is. I explained it to you; you complained about it to me. Your rejection of it is simply a rejection of the foundation of dispesationalism in the Bible.

I speak about Scripture; comment on Scripture.
Perhaps you are a mystic and somehow spiritually absorb the Word.
I study it, and ask the Lord for help while doing so.

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
I'll quote from your favorite author, John MacArthur:

"at sundry times" or "various times" The meaning is "many portions" (as of books). Over the course of possibly 1,800 years (from Job ca. 2300 B.C. to Nehemiah (ca. 400 B.C.) the OT was written in 39 different books reflecting different historical times, locations, cultures, and situations.

"Various ways" These included visionhs, symbols, and parables, written in both poetry and prose. It was always God's revelation of what He wanted His people to know. The progressive revelation of the OT described God's program of redemption (1Pet.1:10-12) and His will for His people (Rom.15:4; 2Tim.3:16,17)

Reading MacArthur's comments one can see that God spoke to different men in different times in different ways--the basis of dispensationalism.
The basis of dispensationalism is Darby's epiphany while recuperating from a fall off a horse. I would note the similarity between Macarthurs understanding of Hebrews 1, 2 and mine in post #48.

It is utter nonsense to attempt a defense of dispensationalism using Hebrews 1 and 2. There is no way that "many times and in various ways" can be twisted into 5 dispensations or whatever number. God did speak to the prophets many times, perhaps that is what some call progressive revelation. God did speak to the prophets in many ways, sometimes through dreams [Joseph], sometimes through visions [Daniel], and sometimes verbally [Abraham, Moses].
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
The basis of dispensationalism is Darby's epiphany while recuperating from a fall off a horse. I would note the similarity between Macarthurs understanding of Hebrews 1, 2 and mine in post #48.
This type of foolish accusation should stop immediately. My beliefs have nothing to with Darby. I have never read his commentary or book, only occasionaly used his translation.
If you are gong to take this seriously you will read the theology of Isaac Watts. Scofield's view of dispensationalism is more akin to Isaac Watts than it was to Darby's. You cannot prove a link to Darby. Your speculation here is wrong and nothing but false accusations.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Who said "five times"? Not me.
It gives the basis that God spoke in different ways at different times to His people. That fact cannot be denied.

There is no one on this board that I know of that denies the deity of Christ. Thus your Scripture is irrelevant.
I study the Scripture. Study to show yourselves approved unto God, workmen that need not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.
I am not a mystic awaiting some mysterious voice to talk to me.

I presented the following Scripture to show what Hebrews 1, 2 is trying to tell those who would learn.

Jesus Christ, the Messiah, told the unbelieving Jews: John 10:30. I and my Father are one.

Jesus Christ, the Messiah, told his doubting disciples:
John 14:6-11
6. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10. Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.


Perhaps those two passages will help you better understand Hebrews 1 & 2! But again, it is essential that we study Scripture but you must let Scripture speak to you rather than you speaking to Scripture!

Hebrews 1, 2 tells us:

1. God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


In the Scripture above Jesus Christ is trying to get the unbelieving Jews to understand who HE is. The writer of Hebrews is reaffirming this truth; Jesus Christ, Jesus the Messiah, is the final Revelation of God.

The book of Hebrews presents the superiority of the New Covenant [Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:8-13] over the Mosaic Covenant. Sadly some, without comprehension, still await the New Covenant and sadly some look backward and await the renewal of animal sacrifice in a temple that God destroyed in 70AD. Jesus Christ has already made the ultimate and perfect Sacrifice fulfilling the promise of God made in Genesis 3:15.

Do you comprehend now DHK?
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
This type of foolish accusation should stop immediately. My beliefs have nothing to with Darby. I have never read his commentary or book, only occasionaly used his translation.
If you are gong to take this seriously you will read the theology of Isaac Watts. Scofield's view of dispensationalism is more akin to Isaac Watts than it was to Darby's. You cannot prove a link to Darby. Your speculation here is wrong and nothing but false accusations.

I don't care whether you have read Darby, Scofield, Wolvoord, Ryrie or whoever. I am simply quoting that great dispensational writer, Thomas Ice and I provided the link. If you have a problem with what Ice says take it up with him.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
I don't care whether you have read Darby, Scofield, Wolvoord, Ryrie or whoever. I am simply quoting that great dispensational writer, Thomas Ice and I provided the link. If you have a problem with what Ice says take it up with him.
Perhaps Mr. Ice is Mr. Magoo in disguise. I don't know who he is: alien, Martian, etc., and I don't care. He is not an authority in my eyes and his opinion counts for zilch. I will take it up with the Bible, for it is with the Bible with which you disagree.
As for historical theology, you aren't even willing to check out the theology of Isaac Watts which you can do on the internet. He preceded both Darby and Watts.
You have put your faith in man and not in God. Shame.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
I presented the following Scripture to show what Hebrews 1, 2 is trying to tell those who would learn.



Hebrews 1, 2 tells us:

1. God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


In the Scripture above Jesus Christ is trying to get the unbelieving Jews to understand who HE is. The writer of Hebrews is reaffirming this truth; Jesus Christ, Jesus the Messiah, is the final Revelation of God.

The book of Hebrews presents the superiority of the New Covenant [Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:8-13] over the Mosaic Covenant. Sadly some, without comprehension, still await the New Covenant and sadly some look backward and await the renewal of animal sacrifice in a temple that God destroyed in 70AD. Jesus Christ has already made the ultimate and perfect Sacrifice fulfilling the promise of God made in Genesis 3:15.

Do you comprehend now DHK?
Go back and read MacArthur's explanation without your biased covenantalism. I understand what the scripture says. It says nothing about coveants in Heb.1:1,2 but it does say something about perods of time. It is too bad you cannot admit that.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Go back and read MacArthur's explanation without your biased covenantalism. I understand what the scripture says. It says nothing about coveants in Heb.1:1,2 but it does say something about perods of time. It is too bad you cannot admit that.

I have given you my explanation of Hebrews 1:1,2. It is very similar to MacArthur's as I pointed out.

No Hebrews 1:1,2 says nothing about covenants and it certainly says nothing about dispensationalism and, furthermore, you know it.

You do not understand Scripture or you could not be a dispensationalist. The Bible says nothing about dispensations in the sense dispensationalists contend. The word does not even appear in the Old Testament as I have repeatedly stated. God deals with Mankind through Covenants. That is what the Bible teaches and it cannot be refuted.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Perhaps Mr. Ice is Mr. Magoo in disguise. I don't know who he is: alien, Martian, etc., and I don't care. He is not an authority in my eyes and his opinion counts for zilch. I will take it up with the Bible, for it is with the Bible with which you disagree.

I agree that Scripture shows that God deals with mankind through Covenants, not dispensations.Show me one place in the Old Testament which covers 5 so-called dispensations of Scofield where the word dispensation appears.

As for historical theology, you aren't even willing to check out the theology of Isaac Watts which you can do on the internet. He preceded both Darby and Watts.
An interesting observation: Watts preceded both Darby and Watts..
You have put your faith in man and not in God. Shame.

If you want to question my salvation DHK at least be a man and do it directly, not hint around. I could care less what you think about me.

As for putting your faith in man it is you who have put your faith in a man made doctrine of Dispensationalism of which John Nelson Darby is the grand puba..
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
As for putting your faith in man it is you who have put your faith in a man made doctrine of Dispensationalism of which John Nelson Darby is the grand puba..
When the blind lead the blind they both fall into a pit. This is one you don't seem able to dig yourself out of. Until you do your homework and are able to admit that the dsipensational theology of Isaac Watts was more advanced than that of Darby, and closer to that of Scofields, you will be forever throwing around needless pejoratives and remaining in unnecessary ignorance. Do your homework.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
When the blind lead the blind they both fall into a pit.
Spoken by one who has the experience!

This is one you don't seem able to dig yourself out of.
Dispensationalists have dug themselves into a pit. Hyper dispensationalists are almost to China, Classic Dispensationalists are still digging, Progressive Dispensationalists got smart and are climbing out of the pit of Dispensationalism.
Until you do your homework and are able to admit that the dsipensational theology of Isaac Watts was more advanced than that of Darby, and closer to that of Scofields, you will be forever throwing around needless pejoratives and remaining in unnecessary ignorance. Do your homework.

I am not the one throwing pejoratives, it is you DHK. That is your normal fall back position.

I will say this of Watts. He did not believe in the "parenthesis" Church! Watts was a covenant premillennialist not a dispensationalist! So you see DHK once again you are ill informed. Now there is much more in the link if you really wish to learn!

WATTS’S VIEW OF ISRAEL AND THE CHURCH

From: http://scottaniol.com/wp-content/uploads/Aniol2.pdf

The answer to the previous question will become clearer in considering how Watts views the relationship between Israel and the church. In several cases Watts calls Israel “the church,”{47} proclaims the “church or nation of the Jews” to be a “type or figure of the whole invisible church of God,”{48} and explains that for Israel “the church was their whole nation, for it was ordained of God to be a national church.”{49} This does not necessarily indicate a blurring of the two, however, for dispensationalists are not immune from calling Israel a “church”— both Darby and Scofield do so. For example, Darby mentions the “Jewish church (i.e., assembly) or nation” in his writings,{50} and like- wise, Scofield says, “It [‘church’] is thus appropriately used, not only of the New Testament church and of the New Testament churches, but also of Israel in the wilderness (Acts vii : 38), and of the town meeting of Ephesus (Acts xix : 32, 39, 41, ‘assembly’).”{51} As both of them high- light the underlying meaning of “assembly,” however, they seem to be using the term in its general sense rather than specifically referring to the New Testament body. Watts, however, appears to use the term more specifically and sees at least a typological relationship between the two bodies and very likely a replacement of Israel by the church.

Watts manifests this replacement emphasis in several places. He argues that God has rejected Israel as his people because of their sin and has replaced them with the Christian church:

God has fulfilled his word, and cut them off according to his threaten- ings, from his relation to him as their God, nor are they any longer his people; they have left their names for a curse to his chosen people, that is, the gospel church made up chiefly of Gentiles, who esteem the name of a Jew a reproach or a curse, and God has called his people, by another name, that is, christians, as he threatened so plainly by Isaiah, his prophet, chapter lxv. 15. These were the children of the kingdom con- cerning whom our Savior foretels, that they should not sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven, but should be cast out into outer darkness; Mat. viii. 11, 12.{52}

The church, according to Watts, inherits all of the promises God made to Israel, albeit in spiritual form:

As those Gentiles who do, really and inwardly, receive the Messiah, and practise his religion in faith and holiness, come into all these inward, real, and spiritual privileges and blessings; so all that make a visible and credi- ble profession of faith, and holiness, and universal subjection to Christ, come into all the outward privileges of the visible church, under the gos- pel: Some few of which privileges are continued from the Jewish church, but the greatest part of them are abolished, because the gospel state is more spiritual than the dispensation of the levitical law, and not such a typical state as that was; and none are to be admitted into this visible church, and esteemed complete members of it, but those who make such a declaration and profession of their faith in Christ, and their avowed subjection to him, as may be supposed, in a judgment of charity, to manifest them to be real believers in Christ, the true subjects of his spiri- tual kingdom, and members of the invisible church.{53}

Watts’s ideas are perhaps best understood on this matter when it becomes clear that he views both Old Testament Israel and the Gentile nations as types of believers and unbelievers in every era. He argues that the Jews represent those “under the kingdom of God,” while the Gentiles picture those “under the kingdom of Satan.” The physical nature of these two groups enters then a “more spiritual state and economy” in the New Testament, wherein birth no longer grants one entrance into one group or the other, but now “a visible profession of our being born of God, of real faith in Christ, of true repentance, and inward holiness...render [believers] real members of the invisible church of God.”{54} Again, Watts’s typological understanding of Israel in the Old Testament seems to downplay the importance of the nation itself in order to highlight the reality of its antitype, the church.

Footnotes:

47. For example, Watts dedicates an entire discourse to comparing the Jewish “church” and the Christian “church” in which he states that “the Jewish nation was once the only visible church of God among men, and the Gentiles were excluded” (Watts, Works in Nine Volumes, 3:603.)
48. Ibid., 3:598–99.
49. Ibid., 3:601.
50. John Nelson Darby, The Collected Writings of J. N. Darby, ed. William Kelly, 34 vols. (Sunbury, PA: Believers Bookshelf, n.d.), 2:35.
51. C. I. Scofield and Arno Clemens Gaebelein, Things New and Old: Old and New Testament Studies (New York: Publication Office “Our Hope,” 1920), p. 257 (empha- sis original).
52. Watts, Works in Nine Volumes, 3:612 (emphasis original).
53. Ibid., 3:613.
54. Ibid., 3:620 (emphasis original).

One thing of note that Watts says and which I addressed earlier in my post #64 on the thread: { Reasons why the Bible teaches a Pretribulational rapture}.

Watts manifests this replacement emphasis in several places. He argues that God has rejected Israel as his people because of their sin and has replaced them with the Christian church:

From post #64 on the thread: { Reasons why the Bible teaches a Pretribulational rapture}.
That is not what Jesus the Messiah told the Jews:

Matthew 21:42, 43
42. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43. Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.


There is no Scripture that revokes that promise of God. It is remarkable how those of dispensational persuasion ignore the Word of God!
 
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DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
I will say this of Watts. He did not believe in the "parenthesis" Church! Watts was a covenant premillennialist not a dispensationalist! So you see DHK once again you are ill informed. Now there is much more in the link if you really wish to learn!

One thing of note that Watts says and which I addressed earlier in my post #64 on the thread: { Reasons why the Bible teaches a Pretribulational rapture}.
Who here has used the term "parenthisis" Church, and has admitted to believing in it? It is just another false accusation, a pejorative that you like throwing around because, in fact, you don't understand dispensationalism. That is why you want us to read "Ice."
Ironically, it is because you don't understand Dispensationalism.

Here is what you didn't post (from the same link) concerning Watt's beliefs on Dispensationalism:
Watts presents a detailed dispensational system of biblical ages that in many ways resembles Scofield’s system. For example, Watts’s definition of a dispensation is quite similar to Scofield’s definition. Watts says,

The public dispensations of God towards men, are those wise and holy constitutions of his will and government, revealed or some way manifested to them, in the several successive periods or ages of the world, wherein are contained the duties which he expects from men, and the blessings which he promises, or encourages them to expect from him, here and hereafter; together with the sins which he forbids, and the punishments which he threatens to inflict on such sinners: Or, the dispensations of God may be described more briefly, as the appointed moral rules of God’s dealing with mankind, considered as reasonable creatures, and as accountable to him for their behaviour, both in this world and in that which is to come. Each of these dispensations of God, may be represented as different religions, or, at least, as different forms of religion, appointed for men in the several successive ages of the world.

This explanation resembles Scofield in several ways. First, like Watts, Scofield equates a dispensation with an age, something later dispensationalists like Ryrie qualify.

Scofield states,
The Scriptures divide time (by which is meant the entire period from the
creation of Adam to the “new heaven and a new earth” of Rev. 21:1) into
seven unequal periods, usually called “Dispensation
s” (Eph. 3:2), although these periods are also called “ages” (Eph. 2:7) and “days” as, “day of the Lord,” etc.

Furthermore, Watts defines a dispensation in terms of its test, failure,
and judgment, very similarly to how Scofield defines it:
These periods are marked off in Scripture by some change in God’s method of dealing with mankind, or a portion of mankind, in respect of the two questions: of sin, and of men’s responsibility. Each of the dispensations may be regarded as a new test of the natural man, and each ends in judgment marking his utter failure in every dispensation.

Finally, and perhaps most notably, Watts’s dispensational divisions match Scofield’s almost perfectly.
 
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