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Baptist Doctrine of the Resurrection of the Dead

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OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Who here has used the term "parenthisis" Church, and has admitted to believing in it? It is just another false accusation, a pejorative that you like throwing around because, in fact, you don't understand dispensationalism. That is why you want us to read "Ice."
Ironically, it is because you don't understand Dispensationalism.

Following are remarks by Chafer and Ryrie. Lewis Sperry Chafer founded and served as the first president of Dallas Theological Seminary, and was an influential proponent of Christian Dispensationalism in the early 20th century. Charles C. Ryrie is a Christian writer and theologian who served as professor of systematic theology and dean of doctoral studies at Dallas Theological Seminary He is also the author of the Ryrie Study Bible.

"But for the Church intercalation -- which was wholly unforeseen and is wholly unrelated to any divine purpose which precedes it or which follows it. In fact, the new, hitherto unrevealed purpose of God in the outcalling of a heavenly people from Jews and Gentiles is so divergent with respect to the divine purpose toward Israel, which purpose preceded it and will yet follow it, that the term parenthetical, commonly employed to describe the new age-purpose, is inaccurate. A parenthetical portion sustains some direct or indirect relation to that which goes before or that which follows; but the present age-purpose is not thus related and therefore is more properly termed an intercalation" [emphasis added] (Chafer, Systematic Theology, 4:41; 5:348-349).

Charles Ryrie says the same thing: "Classic dispensationalists used the words 'parenthesis' or 'intercalation' to describe the distinctiveness of the church in relation to God's program for Israel. An intercalation is an insertion of a period of time in a calendar, and a parenthesis in one sense is defined as an interlude or interval (which in turn is defined as an intervening or interruptive period). So either or both words can be appropriately used to define the church age if one sees it as a distinct interlude in God's program for Israel (as clearly taught in Daniel's prophecy of the seventy weeks in 9:24-27)" (Ryrie, Dispensationalism [Chicago: Moody Press 1995] p.134).

http://twonewcovenants.com/covenant/covenant1.html

Then there are the remarks of Harry A. Ironside former pastor of the Moody Memorial Church in Chicago. The quote is from the preface to his book, The Great Parenthesis.

The contents of the present volume are really an enlargement of lectures on Bible prophecy that have been given at various conferences during the past few years. It was never convenient to have these stenographically reported at the time of their delivery, and so the substance of the addresses has been very carefully gone over and is now presented for the consideration of those who are interested in the revelation which the Spirit of God has given concerning things to come.It is the author's fervent conviction that the failure to understand what is revealed in Scripture concerning the Great Parenthesis between Messiah's rejection, with the consequent setting aside of Israel nationally, and the regathering of God's earthly people and recognition by the Lord in the last days, is the fundamental cause for many conflicting and unscriptural prophetic teachings. Once this parenthetical period is understood and the present work of God during this age is apprehended, the whole prophetic program unfolds with amazing clearness.

http://www.biblesupport.com/e-sword-...t-parenthesis/

Here is what you didn't post (from the same link) concerning Watt's beliefs on Dispensationalism:
Watts presents a detailed dispensational system of biblical ages that in many ways resembles Scofield’s system. For example, Watts’s definition of a dispensation is quite similar to Scofield’s definition. Watts says,

The public dispensations of God towards men, are those wise and holy constitutions of his will and government, revealed or some way manifested to them, in the several successive periods or ages of the world, wherein are contained the duties which he expects from men, and the blessings which he promises, or encourages them to expect from him, here and hereafter; together with the sins which he forbids, and the punishments which he threatens to inflict on such sinners: Or, the dispensations of God may be described more briefly, as the appointed moral rules of God’s dealing with mankind, considered as reasonable creatures, and as accountable to him for their behaviour, both in this world and in that which is to come. Each of these dispensations of God, may be represented as different religions, or, at least, as different forms of religion, appointed for men in the several successive ages of the world.

This explanation resembles Scofield in several ways. First, like Watts, Scofield equates a dispensation with an age, something later dispensationalists like Ryrie qualify.

Scofield states,
The Scriptures divide time (by which is meant the entire period from the
creation of Adam to the “new heaven and a new earth” of Rev. 21:1) into
seven unequal periods, usually called “Dispensation
s” (Eph. 3:2), although these periods are also called “ages” (Eph. 2:7) and “days” as, “day of the Lord,” etc.

Furthermore, Watts defines a dispensation in terms of its test, failure,
and judgment, very similarly to how Scofield defines it:
These periods are marked off in Scripture by some change in God’s method of dealing with mankind, or a portion of mankind, in respect of the two questions: of sin, and of men’s responsibility. Each of the dispensations may be regarded as a new test of the natural man, and each ends in judgment marking his utter failure in every dispensation.

Finally, and perhaps most notably, Watts’s dispensational divisions match Scofield’s almost perfectly.

I did not present them because I did not want to make dispensationalism look worse than it is. I thought dispensationalists had abandoned the idea that people in the Old Testament were saved differently than in The New Covenant and believed that Salvation was by Grace alone.

I would note once again that Watts did not invent the pre-trib removal of the Church, that was Darby.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
I did not present them because I did not want to make dispensationalism look worse than it is. I thought dispensationalists had abandoned the idea that people in the Old Testament were saved differently than in The New Covenant and believed that Salvation was by Grace alone.

I would note once again that Watts did not invent the pre-trib removal of the Church, that was Darby.
Dispensationalism doesn not equal pre-trib.
There are many dispensationalists that are not pre-trib.
Please do not confuse the two.

Even the ECF were dispensational. That is what Chiliasm is. But still you won't admit to it. You are just plain wrong on this issue.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Dispensationalism doesn not equal pre-trib.
There are many dispensationalists that are not pre-trib.
Please do not confuse the two.

Even the ECF were dispensational. That is what Chiliasm is. But still you won't admit to it. You are just plain wrong on this issue.

You are wrong. Chiliasm is not dispensationalism. But even if you were not dispensational doctrine is not Scriptural no matter how often you repeat it.

Classic dispensationalism teaches of a pre-trib removal of the Church, the invention of Darby.

Classic dispensationalism insists that the Church is a "parenthesis" or an "intercalation" in Gods program for Israel.{Post 61 above} Those are not my words they are the words of Ryrie, Chafer, and Ironside.

Classic dispensationalism teaches that God has two peoples, a heavenly people the Church, and an earthly people, Israel.

Classic dispensationalism teaches that the temple will be rebuilt and animal sacrifice resumed during the Jewish millennium.

Thankfully the Progressive Dispensational movement realizes the error in Classic Dispensationalism and is moving away from it to the more Biblical Covenant Premillennialism, just as Classic Dispensationalism disavows hyper dispensationalism.

Need I say more!
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
You are wrong. Chiliasm is not dispensationalism. But even if you were not dispensational doctrine is not Scriptural no matter how often you repeat it.

Classic dispensationalism teaches of a pre-trib removal of the Church, the invention of Darby.

Classic dispensationalism insists that the Church is a "parenthesis" or an "intercalation" in Gods program for Israel.{Post 61 above} Those are not my words they are the words of Ryrie, Chafer, and Ironside.

Classic dispensationalism teaches that God has two peoples, a heavenly people the Church, and an earthly people, Israel.

Classic dispensationalism teaches that the temple will be rebuilt and animal sacrifice resumed during the Jewish millennium.

Thankfully the Progressive Dispensational movement realizes the error in Classic Dispensationalism and is moving away from it to the more Biblical Covenant Premillennialism, just as Classic Dispensationalism disavows hyper dispensationalism.

Need I say more!
Yes, You can admit you don't know what you are taling about.
I am a dispensationalist according to what the Bible teaches. I have told you that--not according to man's teaching--not according to Ice, Darby, etc. You can divide up dispensationalism into various groupings all you like. That doesn't mean I follow them.

I will say again: Not all dispensationalists are pre-trib. Many of them are on this board.
I doubt if any of the dispensationalists have picked up those books and have said to themselves: "This is the one I am going to follow." Foolishness! You are naive if you think that. You might do that with Calvin, but not with dispensations.

You have been given accurate definitions of what a dispensation is.
You should know what a dispensation is by now. It has nothing to do with where the tribulation is placed, a "parenthisis" church, "animal sacrifice" being resumed, etc. You assume far too much.
The early church taught dispensationalism. That is what Chiliasim is--a belief in the Millennial Kingdom and its consequent dispensations. Accept it.
Ice, Ryrie, Darby, et. al. do not have a stranglehold on dispensations. They never did.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
That is what is known as an oxymoron!
No, it is Biblical. I have explained it to you. You are confounded because you can't put me into one of the boxes of your beloved books. Too bad! I stick to the Bible and not your books. You will have to do better. Your comment reflects that you have no biblical refutation.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Here is the problem:
A dispensation may be defined as “a distinguishable economy in the outworking of God’s purpose.” (Ryrie)
A dispensationalist is simply one who recognizes that God deals differently with people in different ages or economies. (Enns).

Eschatology is the doctrine of last things, things to come, and properly deals with the resurrection, the Millennial Kingdom, the Coming of Christ, the Rapture, etc.

The two are not the same. To relate one to the other is wrong. Simply because one holds a pre-trib, pre-mil view does not make him dispensational nor are all dispensationalists pre-trib and pre-mil. Dispensations and the doctrine of last things need not be intertwined with each other. Sometimes they are, but not always.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
No, it is Biblical. I have explained it to you. You are confounded because you can't put me into one of the boxes of your beloved books. Too bad! I stick to the Bible and not your books. You will have to do better. Your comment reflects that you have no biblical refutation.

You claim you stick to the Bible but you cannot get dispensational doctrine from the Bible. No one yet has been able to present a single verse of Scripture that proves a pre-trib removal of the Church. You cannot show me in Scripture of the Old Testament the word dispensation. I can show you the word Covenant and where and when God makes a covenant with mankind. You cannot do that for dispensations, neither can you show me as Watts and Scofield claim where people are tested differently in so-called dispensations.

Dispensationalism does not flow normally from the study of Scripture, rather it must be taught! Classic Dispensationalism in the system invented by John Nelson Darby and popularized in this country by the Scofield Reference Bible in the early 1900's!
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
You claim you stick to the Bible but you cannot get dispensational doctrine from the Bible.
The entire Bible is divided into periods of times. The word "dispensation" is found a number of times. Look to my most recent post and you will find a clear definition of dispensation.
The word "trinity" is not found in the Bible. Do you believe in the trinity?
No one yet has been able to present a single verse of Scripture that proves a pre-trib removal of the Church.
And herein is your problem as I just pointed out. Are we discussing dispensationalism or eschatology. They are mutually exclusive or can be. There is no eschatological term found in the definition of "dispensationalism." You are reading more into it than there is.
You cannot show me in Scripture of the Old Testament the word dispensation.
You can't show me one verse in all the Bible where the word "trinity" is used. Your argument is invalid.
I can show you the word Covenant and where and when God makes a covenant with mankind. You cannot do that for dispensations, neither can you show me as Watts and Scofield claim where people are tested differently in so-called dispensations.
Yes, I can. So can others, and others have. But you won't believe even as you haven't believed others.
Dispensationalism does not flow normally from the study of Scripture, rather it must be taught! Classic Dispensationalism in the system invented by John Nelson Darby and popularized in this country by the Scofield Reference Bible in the early 1900's!
Dispensationalism has been taught from the ECF onward. It was called Chiliasm. Your hatred of it is in your denial thereof.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
The entire Bible is divided into periods of times. The word "dispensation" is found a number of times.
The word dispensation is not in the Old Testament yet some dispensationalists declare there are five or more dispensations in the Old Testament. If the word is there then please provide book, chapter, and verse!

The word "trinity" is not found in the Bible. Do you believe in the trinity?
Do you believe in the Trinity?

And herein is your problem as I just pointed out.
I have no problem. God deals with mankind through covenants. That is a very clear teaching of Scripture. Why use a manmade substitute. That is your problem.

Are we discussing dispensationalism or eschatology. They are mutually exclusive or can be. There is no eschatological term found in the definition of "dispensationalism." You are reading more into it than there is.
The limit of most peoples knowledge of dispensationalism is the "pre-trib Rapture". That is why everyone gets all torqued up when the "parenthesis" Church or the "Intercalation" Church is mentioned. And I did not invent those terms, dispensationalists such as Chafer, Ryrie, and Ironside did!

You can't show me one verse in all the Bible where the word "trinity" is used.
Read Revelation 4&5. You will find the God the Father, God the Son, and God theHoly Spirit!

Originally Posted by OldRegular
I can show you the word Covenant and where and when God makes a covenant with mankind. You cannot do that for dispensations, neither can you show me as Watts and Scofield claim where people are tested differently in so-called dispensations.

Yes, I can. So can others, and others have. But you won't believe even as you haven't believed others.
Then do so!

Dispensationalism has been taught from the ECF onward.
Patently false!
It was called Chiliasm.
That is patently false and you know it. Chiliasm is not dispensationalism it is covenant premillennialism.

Your hatred of it is in your denial thereof.

You are good at pejoratives but not in understanding of God's Word!
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
That is patently false and you know it. Chiliasm is not dispensationalism it is covenant premillennialism.
Which is dispensationalism.
Note one dispensation--the millennium.
Note the differentiation from another PRE-millennialism.
That is what dispensationalism is all about.

I am not talking about eschatology here, but rather dispensations. Keep to the subject.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
That is patently false and you know it. Chiliasm is not dispensationalism it is covenant premillennialism.!

Which is dispensationalism.
Note one dispensation--the millennium.
Note the differentiation from another PRE-millennialism.
That is what dispensationalism is all about.
You are grasping at straws DHK, going down for the last time.

1. Chiliasm believed in a Christian millennium, not a Jewish millennium with its temple and renewal of blood offerings.

2. Chiliasm, or covenant premillennialism, did not invent a 'parenthesis" Church, as Classic Dispensationalism has. Louis Sperry Chafer, founder and first president of the Dallas Theological Seminar wrote about Dispensationalism as follow [Dispensationalism, page 107]

The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved, which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity . . . Over against this, the partial dispensationalist. though dimly observing a few obvious distinctions, bases his interpretation on the supposition that God is doing but one thing, namely the general separation of the good from the bad, and in spite of all the confusion this limited theory creates, contends that the earthly people merge into the heavenly people; that the earthly program must be given a spiritual interpretation or disregarded altogether.

Chafer obviously has nothing but contempt for the "partial" dispensationalist. I suppose at this time Progressive Dispensationalism would fall under that mantle. Charles C. Ryrie in his book Dispensationalism writes about the above statement [page 39]:
This is probably the most basic theological test of whether or not a person is a dispensationalist, and it is undoubtedly the most practical and conclusive. The one who fails to distinguish Israel and the Church consistently will inevitably not hold to dispensational distinctives; and the one who does will.

So you see DHK Chiliasm is not dispensationalism. I would also note once again what Watts said showing that he also is not a dispensationalist because he did not believe in a "parenthesis" Church. And none of the ECF's did either!

WATTS’S VIEW OF ISRAEL AND THE CHURCH

From: http://scottaniol.com/wp-content/uploads/Aniol2.pdf

The answer to the previous question will become clearer in considering how Watts views the relationship between Israel and the church. In several cases Watts calls Israel “the church,”{47} proclaims the “church or nation of the Jews” to be a “type or figure of the whole invisible church of God,”{48} and explains that for Israel “the church was their whole nation, for it was ordained of God to be a national church.”{49} This does not necessarily indicate a blurring of the two, however, for dispensationalists are not immune from calling Israel a “church”— both Darby and Scofield do so. For example, Darby mentions the “Jewish church (i.e., assembly) or nation” in his writings,{50} and like- wise, Scofield says, “It [‘church’] is thus appropriately used, not only of the New Testament church and of the New Testament churches, but also of Israel in the wilderness (Acts vii : 38), and of the town meeting of Ephesus (Acts xix : 32, 39, 41, ‘assembly’).”{51} As both of them high- light the underlying meaning of “assembly,” however, they seem to be using the term in its general sense rather than specifically referring to the New Testament body. Watts, however, appears to use the term more specifically and sees at least a typological relationship between the two bodies and very likely a replacement of Israel by the church.

Watts manifests this replacement emphasis in several places. He argues that God has rejected Israel as his people because of their sin and has replaced them with the Christian church:
God has fulfilled his word, and cut them off according to his threaten- ings, from his relation to him as their God, nor are they any longer his people; they have left their names for a curse to his chosen people, that is, the gospel church made up chiefly of Gentiles, who esteem the name of a Jew a reproach or a curse, and God has called his people, by another name, that is, christians, as he threatened so plainly by Isaiah, his prophet, chapter lxv. 15. These were the children of the kingdom con- cerning whom our Savior foretels, that they should not sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven, but should be cast out into outer darkness; Mat. viii. 11, 12.{52}​

The church, according to Watts, inherits all of the promises God made to Israel, albeit in spiritual form:
As those Gentiles who do, really and inwardly, receive the Messiah, and practise his religion in faith and holiness, come into all these inward, real, and spiritual privileges and blessings; so all that make a visible and credi- ble profession of faith, and holiness, and universal subjection to Christ, come into all the outward privileges of the visible church, under the gos- pel: Some few of which privileges are continued from the Jewish church, but the greatest part of them are abolished, because the gospel state is more spiritual than the dispensation of the levitical law, and not such a typical state as that was; and none are to be admitted into this visible church, and esteemed complete members of it, but those who make such a declaration and profession of their faith in Christ, and their avowed subjection to him, as may be supposed, in a judgment of charity, to manifest them to be real believers in Christ, the true subjects of his spiri- tual kingdom, and members of the invisible church.{53}​

Watts’s ideas are perhaps best understood on this matter when it becomes clear that he views both Old Testament Israel and the Gentile nations as types of believers and unbelievers in every era. He argues that the Jews represent those “under the kingdom of God,” while the Gentiles picture those “under the kingdom of Satan.” The physical nature of these two groups enters then a “more spiritual state and economy” in the New Testament, wherein birth no longer grants one entrance into one group or the other, but now “a visible profession of our being born of God, of real faith in Christ, of true repentance, and inward holiness...render [believers] real members of the invisible church of God.”{54} Again, Watts’s typological understanding of Israel in the Old Testament seems to downplay the importance of the nation itself in order to highlight the reality of its antitype, the church.

Footnotes:

47. For example, Watts dedicates an entire discourse to comparing the Jewish “church” and the Christian “church” in which he states that “the Jewish nation was once the only visible church of God among men, and the Gentiles were excluded” (Watts, Works in Nine Volumes, 3:603.)
48. Ibid., 3:598–99.
49. Ibid., 3:601.
50. John Nelson Darby, The Collected Writings of J. N. Darby, ed. William Kelly, 34 vols. (Sunbury, PA: Believers Bookshelf, n.d.), 2:35.
51. C. I. Scofield and Arno Clemens Gaebelein, Things New and Old: Old and New Testament Studies (New York: Publication Office “Our Hope,” 1920), p. 257 (empha- sis original).
52. Watts, Works in Nine Volumes, 3:612 (emphasis original).
53. Ibid., 3:613.
54. Ibid., 3:620 (emphasis original).

Continued in following post.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Continued from previous post.

I am not talking about eschatology here, but rather dispensations. Keep to the subject.

Then you should stick with the OP, DHK! I reposted it in #37 as a reminder!

That being said Eschatology cannot be separated from Dispensationalism. Walvoord, preeminent classic dispensationalist theologian and former president of the Dallas Seminary, has said the following regarding the Church and the pre-trib Rapture. Walvoord writes, regarding the definition of the church, [Major Bible Prophecies, page 282]:

“If the question be asked: Will the church be raptured before end-time events? it becomes very important to define the church as an entity that is distinct from Israel or saints in general. In prophetic passages concerning the Tribulation, both Israelites and Gentiles are described, and some of them have faith in Christ and form a godly remnant. If they are part of the church, then the church is in the Tribulation, and the whole question as to whether the church goes through the Tribulation becomes moot. Many posttribulationists, in an attempt to establish their own point of view, beg the question at the very beginning by assuming that the church includes saints of all ages. The concept that the church is distinct from Israel is a part of dispensational truth that distinguishes the work of God in the Old Testament under the Mosaic Law, the work of God in the present age as he calls out both Jews and Gentiles to form the church as the body of Christ, and the millennial kingdom in which the saints of all ages participate in various ways but maintain their individual and corporate identity. Hence, the church will be raptured or resurrected, and will reign with Christ in the millennial kingdom, but the saved of Israel as well as the saved of the Gentiles who are not part of the church will also be part of the millennial kingdom. Distinguishing the church from saints of other periods that precede or follow the present age is essential to a correct answer on the pretribulational issue. It is not too much to say that the doctrine of the church, or ecclesiology, determines this aspect of eschatology.”

I have posted the above in the OP and in the repost #37 but repetition is a well recognized method of teaching.

So DHK are you a classic dispensationalists who believes in a "parenthesis" Church or are you only a partial dispensationalist which Chafer contemptuously dismisses as:
dimly observing a few obvious distinctions, bases his interpretation on the supposition that God is doing but one thing, namely the general separation of the good from the bad, and in spite of all the confusion this limited theory creates, contends that the earthly people merge into the heavenly people; that the earthly program must be given a spiritual interpretation or disregarded altogether.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
You are grasping at straws DHK, going down for the last time.

1. Chiliasm believed in a Christian millennium, not a Jewish millennium with its temple and renewal of blood offerings.

2. Chiliasm, or covenant premillennialism, did not invent a 'parenthesis" Church, as Classic Dispensationalism has. Louis Sperry Chafer, founder and first president of the Dallas Theological Seminar wrote about Dispensationalism as follow [Dispensationalism, page 107]
When did I ever admit to believing in a parenthisis church. Prove that I do. If not, shut up about it.

Here is what dispensationaism is:
A dispensationalist is simply one who recognizes that God deals differently with people in different ages or economies. (Enns).
--nothing more; nothing less. Quit adding to it
Chafer obviously has nothing but contempt for the "partial" dispensationalist. I suppose at this time Progressive Dispensationalism would fall under that mantle. Charles C. Ryrie in his book Dispensationalism writes about the above statement [page 39]:
I don't care what Chafer says.
So you see DHK Chiliasm is not dispensationalism. I would also note once again what Watts said showing that he also is not a dispensationalist because he did not believe in a "parenthesis" Church. And none of the ECF's did either!
According to the standard definition of Dispensationalism:

A dispensationalist is simply one who recognizes that God deals differently with people in different ages or economies. (Enns).

Chiliasm is dispensationalism. Live with it
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Then you should stick with the OP, DHK! I reposted it in #37 as a reminder!

That being said Eschatology cannot be separated from Dispensationalism. Walvoord, preeminent classic dispensationalist theologian and former president of the Dallas Seminary, has said the following regarding the Church and the pre-trib Rapture. Walvoord writes, regarding the definition of the church, [Major Bible Prophecies, page 282]:

I have posted the above in the OP and in the repost #37 but repetition is a well recognized method of teaching.

So DHK are you a classic dispensationalists who believes in a "parenthesis" Church or are you only a partial dispensationalist which Chafer contemptuously dismisses as:
1. Yoir thread is off base because it is supposed to be on the resurrection of the dead.
2. Yoiur quotations of the above are totally irrelevant.

A dispensationalist is simply one who recognizes that God deals differently with people in different ages or economies. (Enns).

As long as you depart from this basic definition of dispensationalism I will assume you don't know what you are talking about.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
1. Yoir thread is off base because it is supposed to be on the resurrection of the dead.
2. Yoiur quotations of the above are totally irrelevant.
Your complaint was:
I am not talking about eschatology here, but rather dispensations. Keep to the subject.
The resurrection does have something to do with eschatology does it not? You are beginning to look like a spoiled brat DHK. You can't debate the issues so you make silly remarks.


A dispensationalist is simply one who recognizes that God deals differently with people in different ages or economies. (Enns).

As long as you depart from this basic definition of dispensationalism I will assume you don't know what you are talking about.

It is obvious that you know nothing. I have quoted those who are the fathers of dispensational doctrine and you either plead ignorance or make asinine comments. I repeat what Chafer said constitutes a dispensationalist and Ryrie's concurrence.

Louis Sperry Chafer, founder and first president of the Dallas Theological Seminar wrote about Dispensationalism as follow [Dispensationalism, page 107]

The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved, which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity . . . Over against this, the partial dispensationalist. though dimly observing a few obvious distinctions, bases his interpretation on the supposition that God is doing but one thing, namely the general separation of the good from the bad, and in spite of all the confusion this limited theory creates, contends that the earthly people merge into the heavenly people; that the earthly program must be given a spiritual interpretation or disregarded altogether.

Chafer obviously has nothing but contempt for the "partial" dispensationalist. I suppose at this time Progressive Dispensationalism would fall under that mantle. Charles C. Ryrie in his book Dispensationalism writes about the above statement [page 39]:
This is probably the most basic theological test of whether or not a person is a dispensationalist, and it is undoubtedly the most practical and conclusive. The one who fails to distinguish Israel and the Church consistently will inevitably not hold to dispensational distinctives; and the one who does will.

It is a mystery to me why anyone would want to claim to be a dispensationalist when they do not know what constitutes dispensationalism. But perhaps, DHK, you are one of those "partial dispensationalists" that Chafer contemptuously dismissed as:
dimly observing a few obvious distinctions, bases his interpretation on the supposition that God is doing but one thing, namely the general separation of the good from the bad, and in spite of all the confusion this limited theory creates, contends that the earthly people merge into the heavenly people; that the earthly program must be given a spiritual interpretation or disregarded altogether.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Your complaint was:
The resurrection does have something to do with eschatology does it not? You are beginning to look like a spoiled brat DHK. You can't debate the issues so you make silly remarks.
Yes, indeed it does. But you don't want to keep it there. You keep derailing the thread to dispensationalism.
Here is your OP:
Throughout history Baptist have generally believed that the return of Jesus Christ will be followed immediately by a resurrection of all the dead, both the ‘redeemed’ and the ‘lost’, and a general judgment. This conclusion is based on information presented in Baptist Confessions of Faith by William L. Lumpkin. Excerpts from the more prominent Baptist Confessions are presented in the following post!

It is important to note that the implications of a general resurrection and judgment are not trivial in today’s theological climate.

A general resurrection and judgment means that there is no ‘secret rapture of the church’ prior to any period of ‘great tribulation’. The Church will remain on earth until they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [Matthew 24:30, KJV] and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen [Revelation 1:7, KJV]. Whatever tribulation comes before that time the Church will endure just as Jesus Christ taught and just as the history of the Church bears witness. In fact Scripture teaches repeatedly that tribulation is the norm of life for the Saints, the ‘true believers’.

John F. Walvoord, the preeminent dispensationalist theologian and former president of the Dallas Theological Seminary confesses that the validity of the pre-tribulation ‘rapture’ depends on the definition of the Church [Major Bible Prophecies, page 282]. Before presenting Walvoord’s remarks concerning this question it is worthwhile to consider the definition of the Church as presented in The Baptist Faith and Message [Section VI] adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta, Georgia on June 14, 2000.
It was supposed to have been on the resurrection, what the Baptists have generally believed throughout history. It didn't have to be on dispensations, but you drew it in that direction.
It is obvious that you know nothing. I have quoted those who are the fathers of dispensational doctrine and you either plead ignorance or make asinine comments. I repeat what Chafer said constitutes a dispensationalist and Ryrie's concurrence.
I don't care who you quote.
What are you talking about: the resurrection (eschatology), or dispensations?

"A dispensationalist is simply one who recognizes that God deals differently with people in different ages or economies." (Enns).
--If you can't agree to something as basic and simple as this then there is no use in going any further.
It is a mystery to me why anyone would want to claim to be a dispensationalist when they do not know what constitutes dispensationalism. But perhaps, DHK, you are one of those "partial dispensationalists" that Chafer contemptuously dismissed as:
I am a Bibical dispensationalist. I get my doctrine from the Bible, not from men. I haven't read the books you have read, nor do I care to. So you can't peg me into one of those corners.
I tell you again:

A dispensationalist is simply one who recognizes that God deals differently with people in different ages or economies. (Enns).

That is all it is.
If you want to discuss the resurrection in reference to some of those dispensations that is fine. There is no need to compare my beliefs to those scholars you cited. That is just a red herrig and causes confusion.

A dispensationalist is simply one who recognizes that God deals differently with people in different ages or economies. (Enns).

Until you come to an agreement that the above is what a dispensation is, we will get nowhere.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
When did I ever admit to believing in a parenthisis church. Prove that I do. If not, shut up about it.
I have shown you repeatedly where Classic Dispensationalism believes that the Church is a "parenthesis" {Ryrie, Ironside} or an "Intercalation" {Chafer} in God's program for Israel. If you don't like it that is too bad! Bail out!

Here is what dispensationaism is:
A dispensationalist is simply one who recognizes that God deals differently with people in different ages or economies. (Enns).
--nothing more; nothing less. Quit adding to it

I don't try to define dispensationalism I go to the source beginning with Darby, continuing with Scofield, Chafer, Ryrie, Enns, etc.

Paul Enns writes, “Dispensationalism views the world as a household run by God. In this divine household God gives man certain responsibilities as administrator. If man obeys God within that economy (dispensation), God promises blessing; if man disobeys God, He promises judgment. Thus there are three aspects normally seen in a dispensation: (1) testing; (2) failure; (3) judgment. In each dispensation God has put man under a test, man fails, and there is judgment.” [Paul Enns, The Moody Handbook of Theology (Chicago: Moody Press, 1989), 519.]
http://www.fellowshipjasper.com/wp-...1/Day-2-Major-Tenets-of-Dispensationalism.pdf

Then there are the remarks of Enns praising the dispensationalism of Ryrie:
CHARLES C. RYRIE
by Paul P. Enns

Charles Caldwell Ryrie (b. 1925) is a graduate of Haverford College (B.A.), Dallas Theological Seminary (Th.M., Th.D.) and the University of Edinburgh, Scotland (Ph.D.). For many years he served as professor of systematic theology and dean of doctoral studies at Dallas Theological Seminary, where he challenged students to precision in theological speaking and writing. Dr. Ryrie is especially gifted in his ability to clarify profound theological truths in simple, precise language. He has enabled people to understand biblical truth that they would otherwise not readily comprehend and in this he has made an inestimable contribution to the Christian world.

Dr. Ryrie's writings have consistently been on the theological cutting edge, addressing the critical issues of the day and speaking on behalf of dispensational premillennialism. In his classic text, Dispensationalism Today (1965), and his recent update, Dispensationalism (1995), Ryrie clarifies many of the misunderstandings that opponents of premillennialism and dispensationalism have leveled. He notes that even Louis Berkhof, a covenant theologian, makes (dispensational) distinctions, differentiating the OT from the NT and seeing four subdivisions in the OT. Ryrie defines a dispensation as "a distinguishable economy in the outworking of God's purpose" (Dispensationalism, 28). In a dispensation God places people under a stewardship or responsibility, people invariably failing the test, with a corresponding judgment and change.

Ryrie clearly delineates the sine qua non of dispensationalism:

1. Dispensationalism keeps Israel and the church distinct. This is the most basic test of dispensationalism.

2. The distinction between Israel and the church is born out of a system of hermeneutics that is usually called literal interpretation. Dispensationalism interprets words in their normal or plain meaning; it does not spiritualize or allegorize the text. The strength of dispensationalism is its consistently literal, or plain, interpretation of Scripture.

3. The underlying purpose of God in the world is the glory of God (pp. 39-40). In contrast to covenant theology (which sees salvation as the underlying purpose) and progressive dispensationalism (which emphasizes a Christological center), dispensationalism sees a broader purpose – the glory of God. (This theme is developed in Transformed By His Glory) For this reason, the number of dispensations is not the critical issue in dispensationalism – as long as one is true to the three essentials of dispensationalism. Three dispensations – law, grace, and kingdom – receive most of the treatment in Scripture; however, it is possible to recognize other dispensations and while the historic sevenfold scheme of dispensations is not inspired, they seem to be distinguishable economies in God's program.

http://www.gracebiblestudies.org/Resources/Web/www.duluthbible.org/g_f_j/Ryrie_Biography.htm

I assume Ryrie's point #1 above is the basis for dispensational defining a "parenthesis" Church by Ryrie and "intercalation" Church by Chafer! Of course that doctrine is invented out of "whole cloth" but????? So you see DHK you really must expand your field of knowledge.


Chiliasm is dispensationalism. Live with it

When a Covenant premillennialist on this Board admits they are a dispensationalist then the above remark won't look quite as silly!
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
I have shown you repeatedly where Classic Dispensationalism believes that the Church is a "parenthesis" {Ryrie, Ironside} or an "Intercalation" {Chafer} in God's program for Israel. If you don't like it that is too bad! Bail out!
I have never admitted to a "parenthesis" church. Why do you keep throwing that at me?
I have never admitted to "Classic Dispensationalism," or any other kind of dispensationalism." So all of this is just false accusations on your part. You do this because you can't debate the issue.
I don't try to define dispensationalism I go to the source beginning with Darby, continuing with Scofield, Chafer, Ryrie, Enns, etc.
They aren't the source. The Bible is the source. But with the Bible we need some basic definitions of words.
This is a BASIC definition. I previously gave you the same definition in my own words. You rejected it with sarcasm. Now I give it to with someone else who may have a bit more authority:

A dispensationalist is simply one who recognizes that God deals differently with people in different ages or economies. (Enns).

It is a simple basic defintion that one can work with. That is all that is needed.
Then there are the remarks of Enns praising the dispensationalism of Ryrie:
Not needed; irrelevant.
I assume Ryrie's point #1 above is the basis for dispensational defining a "parenthesis" Church by Ryrie and "intercalation" Church by Chafer! Of course that doctrine is invented out of "whole cloth" but????? So you see DHK you really must expand your field of knowledge.
Your assumption that I believe in a parenthesis church is wrong.
I have never looked up "intercalation" in the dictionary and still don't know its proper meaning, and don't really care.
It doesn't matter to me what these men say; it is irrelevant.

A dispensationalist is simply one who recognizes that God deals differently with people in different ages or economies. (Enns).
--That is what is important--a simple working definiton of dispensation.
When a Covenant premillennialist on this Board admits they are a dispensationalist then the above remark won't look quite as silly!
I have no idea what you are talking about. MacArthur is a dispensationalist. Do you have a problem with that?
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
I have never admitted to a "parenthesis" church. Why do you keep throwing that at me?
I have never admitted to "Classic Dispensationalism," or any other kind of dispensationalism."

So after all the stuff you have been shouting at me in defense of Darby's epiphany and subsequently a systematic doctrine of dispensationalism you won't 'fess up that you are a dispensationalist. It was clear you did not know much about dispensationalism but that is normal. The knowledge of most who claim to be dispensationalists doesn't extend beyond "Rapture Ready"!:laugh::wavey::laugh::wavey:
 
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