Baptist Hall Of Shame

[rsr]

Originally posted by Plain Old Bill:
Well I guess my next question would be do you think any of these men were saved? If you do are you going to make an apology when you see them in heavem?

I have allowed this thread to run against my better judgment, and I do not believe speculating on the eternal fate of prominent Baptists would edify our membership in the least.

rsr

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by rlvaughn:
I think we need to be careful about putting someone in a top ten worst based on such. The same reasoning would put our friend J. R. Graves (James Robison Graves - not Ben who posts under that name, or John R. Graves or whoever Hardsheller mentioned on the first page) in that category - or at least the top ten worst Landmarkers. He was clearly a Calvinist (of about the same degree as Spurgeon) and at the least influences by example Landmarkers to consider going down that path.

Brother Vaughn,

If J.R. Graves was a Calvinist, then shame on him. Shame on any man so steeped in the hell inspired philosophies of man that he would deny that Jesus Christ tasted death for every man.

Shame, shame, shame!

Mark Osgatharp

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
Brother Vaughn,

If J.R. Graves was a Calvinist, then shame on him. Shame on any man so steeped in the hell inspired philosophies of man that he would deny that Jesus Christ tasted death for every man.

Shame, shame, shame!

Mark Osgatharp

Calvinists do not deny Hebrews 2:9. Shame on any man who tells untruths about Calvinists.

Shame, shame, shame!

 

[SeekingTruth]

Where in the Bible (KJV, NIV, NASB, ESV, or any other translation) can we as sinners, saved by grace, find the right and the power to assign the souls of people to Hell. Please provide chapter and verse for me. I have been disturbed by the harsh comments I have seen in other threads (especially disturbed about some I made that seemed harsh in retrospect), but the absolute villification and condemnation I find in this thread is what is shameful. This thread should be closed and removed from the forum and all who have posted here claim the power of God to send people to Hell should get on their knees and beg His forgiveness.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

SeekingTruth, so far none here have sent anyone to hell. Yes, Mark has said "Shame, Shame, Shame." But, that's a temporal act not an eternal one. Yes, in a few cases as listed above some have questioned the salvation of the modernists on the list. But, then those are clear cut cases of false doctrine and have nothing to do with Calvinism.

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by Squire Robertsson:
SeekingTruth, so far none here have sent anyone to hell. Yes, Mark has said "Shame, Shame, Shame." But, that's a temporal act not an eternal one. Yes, in a few cases as listed above some have questioned the salvation of the modernists on the list. But, then those are clear cut cases of false doctrine and have nothing to do with Calvinism.

Thank you Squire! There are some around here who can't even read, or at least don't bother to read something before they start lambasting it. Shame on them too.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[SeekingTruth]

If J.R. Graves was a Calvinist, then shame on him. Shame on any man so steeped in the hell inspired philosophies of man that he would deny that Jesus Christ tasted death for every man.

To say that a man's doctrinal beliefs are hell inspired, is tantamount to call him a servant of Satan. Mark Osgatharp as quoted above has cone just that. I rep[eat my contention that this forum seems to be especially harsh and condeming of those who do not believe the Arminian theology.

To merely say "Shame" is not the same as accusing people of preaching a doctrine or believing a philosophy inspired in hell, which is to say Satan. Osgathorp has, as I stated above, do this very thing. Any man who preaches Satan's doctrine is condemned to Hell. He knows this, and so should you Squire.


And Mark, your insulting accusation that I can't read is demeaning to me and to yourself. For one who professes to be a man of God, you should not be so vindictive.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Squire Robertsson:
SeekingTruth, so far none here have sent anyone to hell. Yes, Mark has said "Shame, Shame, Shame." But, that's a temporal act not an eternal one. Yes, in a few cases as listed above some have questioned the salvation of the modernists on the list. But, then those are clear cut cases of false doctrine and have nothing to do with Calvinism.

Bro. Squire,

Can one be "steeped in the hell inspired philosophies of man" and still be saved?

 

[SeekingTruth]

whatever,

Based on his response, which you posted above, it would appear Squire believes this to be the case. Not only does it seem that he believes so, Mark O must believe so as well, since both maintain that no one has condemned anyone to hell.

Since Mark O placed shame on me as well, I guess he has also condemned me to hell. Not that that thought concerns me, because my Lord is the only one who can do that. No man, preacher or not, can do so. Praise God for that.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Squire Robertsson:
SeekingTruth, so far none here have sent anyone to hell. Yes, Mark has said "Shame, Shame, Shame." But, that's a temporal act not an eternal one. Yes, in a few cases as listed above some have questioned the salvation of the modernists on the list. But, then those are clear cut cases of false doctrine and have nothing to do with Calvinism.

Bro. Squire,

Can one be "steeped in the hell inspired philosophies of man" and still be saved?</font>[/QUOTE]Actually, what is happening is I am not letting Mark O's hyperbolic hence illogical statements cloud my reactions to him. He does have a germ of truth in his statement. Brother Calvin in developing his system of theology applied Aristotelian logic to the Scriptures. Obviously, Aristole was a unsaved pagan. And the Holy Spirit did cause the Apostle Paul to write:

“22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. (1Corinthians 1:22-25)

I look at the wisdom the Greeks sought after as the Aristotelian. Socratic, ect. systems of thought. Mark O drove off into the ditch (just like Brother Calvin did) by conflation. Or to quote my logic teacher at MBBC, the late M. James Hollowood

Your answer is wrong by addition.

 

[whatever]

Bro. Squire,

What Calvinists believe was around long before John Calvin, but that is really beside the point.

I am a little confused by your response, though. Are you saying that it is acceptable to question the salvation of others as long as you are doing so by using illogical hyperbole? Or that he knew that he was using illogical hyperbole and therefore he did not mean what he was saying? Or what?

 

[Hardsheller]

James R. Graves not John R. Graves.

James R. Graves was the father of Landmarkism in the Southern Baptist Convention and probably did more to promote the Landmark position among Baptists than any other single figure.

That he was a Calvinist is almost assuredly so since the majority of Baptists in his day were such to one degree or another.

I find it interesting that Mark O. is a member of a Landmark Baptist Church which no doubt could trace its beginnings to some influence of J.R. Graves who was probably a Calvinist as well.

Interesting how we pick and choose our hero's doctrines.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
James R. Graves not John R. Graves.

James R. Graves was the father of Landmarkism in the Southern Baptist Convention and probably did more to promote the Landmark position among Baptists than any other single figure.

That he was a Calvinist is almost assuredly so since the majority of Baptists in his day were such to one degree or another.

I find it interesting that Mark O. is a member of a Landmark Baptist Church which no doubt could trace its beginnings to some influence of J.R. Graves who was probably a Calvinist as well.

Interesting how we pick and choose our hero's doctrines.

IF one ever traces the trail of blood he soon realizes the heretics he has to cross. Landmarkism is simply a reaction to popery.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Originally posted by whatever:
Bro. Squire,

What Calvinists believe was around long before John Calvin, but that is really beside the point.

I am a little confused by your response, though. Are you saying that it is acceptable to question the salvation of others as long as you are doing so by using illogical hyperbole? Or that he knew that he was using illogical hyperbole and therefore he did not mean what he was saying? Or what?

What it means is I am not going to go after Mark O's hide for his lack of logic. I am letting his ill use of logic stand naked for what is in the full light of day. Then, I am going to ignore it and get on with life. Regretfully, I cannot write anything stronger without falling afoul of the Posting Rules. The PSs do not allow for the questioning of Member's salvation but non-members are not covered by the rules.

That and you have to remember, I do not have a dog in the CvA debate.

 

[whatever]

Thank you for clarifying.

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by gb93433:
IF one ever traces the trail of blood he soon realizes the heretics he has to cross. Landmarkism is simply a reaction to popery.

Well let's apply your logic to Scripture. The church of Jesus Christ at Pergamos had heretics in it, namely Balaamites who taught idolatry and fornication, as well as Nicolaitans whose doctrine, whatever it was, was hated by Jesus Christ.

Now according to your logic I ought not claim such a church as part of the trail of blood because it had some heretic teachers in it. And yet Jesus said that same church had a martyr, Antipas, who was slain for his testimony. Therefore the church, in spite of it's heretics, was in the trail of blood.

So much for you sophistical argument against the Lord's trail of blood.

As for J.R. Graves, my faith doesn't rest one iota on what he did or didn't do.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Dear Mark,
I hope you get better.

 

[Rhetorician]

Mark,

I would say "PRAISE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST" and the glory of the free Gospel of Grace for a man like Charles Spurgeon who preached a pure Gospel that you castigate as "Calvinism."

sdg!

rd

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
Well let's apply your logic to Scripture. The church of Jesus Christ at Pergamos had heretics in it, namely Balaamites who taught idolatry and fornication, as well as Nicolaitans whose doctrine, whatever it was, was hated by Jesus Christ.

Now according to your logic I ought not claim such a church as part of the trail of blood because it had some heretic teachers in it. And yet Jesus said that same church had a martyr, Antipas, who was slain for his testimony. Therefore the church, in spite of it's heretics, was in the trail of blood.

So much for you sophistical argument against the Lord's trail of blood.

Having a church with heretics in it is not the same thing as heretical groups. Heretics are not the church.

 

[mioque]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
I think if they are saved
that some are going to have to apologize
to them. It is one thing to denote a tinge
of gray and quite something else to have
that tinge of gray make them black

Of course me having inspired this thread I will probably have to apologize to all of them...

Including the ones listed by Gold Dragon.

edited for proper formatting, KR

[ September 27, 2005, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: Squire Robertsson ]