Baptist Purgatory

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

I'm not sure I know enough to join in this debate but I would like someone to "frame the issue" clearly for me so I have a few questions.
1)At the JSOC believers will be judged for the works they did after being saved....right?

2)They will be rewarded...for what?

OR...

3)They will suffer LOSS...being tried by FIRE....for what?

AND...

4)What is the nature and effect of this "firey" judgement?

AND...

5)What effect or consequence will a believer suffer or enjoy in the upcoming millenial Kingdom in the 1000 year reign of Christ and the church on this earth?

I have tried to follow the debate as posted in this thread but it has been rather confusing.Sometimes I feel as though as a Christian....due to the ups and downs of my christian life I'll just make it "in" by the "skin of my teeth".If I died TODAY I don't feel I'd have much reward...but rather would suffer much LOSS.....WHAT will I LOSE? That,my brothers,is the BIG question....and just how afraid should I be?Please be simple and straight with me on this....I hurt about it.I honestly don't feel very good about my christian life much of the time.

Greg Sr.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by av1611jim:
DHK ;
You did real good, except vs 4, 6 and 11.
vs 4 is not JUST a reference to Christ but is also a reminder that NONE of us have resisted sin like He did. Therefore we ought to.

I agree with you here.

vs 6, NO! God is not just a "coach" and God's chastisement is so much more than a "coach's" discipline. I find that awfully trite. What "coach" do you know of that KILLS his players for disobedience? You know of whom I am speaking. I need not give the reference.

Although God's judgement fell upon Annanias and Sapphira, and those in 1Cor.11:30 in the form of death, I don't think that is what the author had in mind here. From the beginning he has in mind the running of a race. Though the illustration of using a coach may seem trite it was not meant to be offensive in any way. Paul uses sports illustrations often. He uses a very good one in 1Cor.9:24-27, alluding to himself to so discipline himself, and keep his body under submission. The Father wants to help us do the same, both by encouragement and by discipline. The word chastisement has more to do with correction and discipline, rather than outright judgment.

Vs 11, you bolded "present" as if to imply it is this present time on earth but it is not that at all. It is the present time of chastisement. IOW, whether here or later, no chastisement is pleasent DURING the chastisement.

I bolded present because in every verse up to and including this one it is speaking of present discipline on the earth during an earthly race. I went to great pains to show you this. Now you want to take this verse, which clearly shows or says that it is present discipline and say that it isn't. How contradictory is that! Even the KJV translators mark verse 11 as the end of a paragraph. So leaping another 14 verses down into the chapter to verse 25 to try to prove that this is speaking of sometime in the future is a giant leap of faith, or just plain taking things out of context. Verses 1-11 all have a unified theme, speak of the same thing. You simply can't lift that one verse and suddenly declare that it is not speaking of the same time and place that the other verses are. It doesn't make sense to do so, neither is it rightly dividing the Word of Truth.
DHK

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Several who teaching on millennial exclusion, believe there are many pasages in the Bible talking about conditional warnings. Yet, they believe in security salvation, in other word, it so called, 'Once Saved Always Saved'. I used to believe in this for long, long time. Till 1 1/2 years ago, I was no longer believe in security salvation. Because there are so much overwhelming evidences in the Bible teaching on conditional warnings, and these could effect our salvation also.

I read Hebrews chapter 12 recently. Obivously, this chapter 12 talks about conditional warning. Even, it effects our salvation too.

Hebrews 12:15-17 "Looking diligently LEST any man fail of the grace of God; LEST any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled. LEST there be any fornicator, or profane person ***as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that AFTERWARD, when he(Esau) would have inherited the blessing, he was REJECTED: for he found NO PLACE of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears."

Obivous, this passage is speaking of conditional. The lesson of Esau, he receive the birthright from his father Isaac. But, instead later, he sold it to his brother Jacob. Afterward, it tells us, Esau CANNOT received birthright, he lost it in the rest of his life. This is the picture of us, who forsaked Lord, and turn away, might lose salvation.

Hebrews 12:25 - "See that ye refuse NOT him(Christ) that speaketh, For IF they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven."

Obivous, this verse speaks of conditional warning. It tells us, we should be escape from face serious consequence or judgement, IF we do not turn away from the Lord. OR.... what IF we forsaked and turn away from the Lord, we shall face serious consquence and punishment.

'Escape' is found in Hebrews 2:3 - "How shall we escape, IF we neglect SO GREAT SALVATION; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him."

This verse warns us, how can we escape, IF we forsake so great salvation, as what we hear Christ's word. That means, no way that we can escape from what? - hell, IF we neglect so great salvation - eternal life, if we stopped obeying Christ's commandment.

Also, there is another verse speaks of 'escape' in Luke 21:36 - "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and TO STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN."

Many baptists use Luke 21:36 for the 'proof' of pretrib doctrine - "escape all these things that shall come to pass" is speak of 7 year of great tribulaiton - God's wrath. Christ does not saying it is so called, 'seven year of tribulation period'.

Luke 21:36 speaks of very clear warning of conditional. Christ commands us, that we ought to WATCH and PRAY. OR.... if we do NOT watch and pray, we shall face these things, that we cannot escape from them, if we do not obey Christ's commandment. That mean, if we do not obey Christ's commandment, shall suffering punishment and wrath from God, and shall stand before Christ sits on throne- speak of judgement seat of Christ/great white throne in the judgement day.

Hebrews 2:3 warns us, HOW can we shall escape, IF neglect SO GREAT SALVATION?!

I read Gary T. Whipple 's book - "Shock & Surprise Beyond the Rapture' He inteprets Heb. 2: 3- "so great salvation" means millennial kingdom. I strong disagree with his intepreting. Not actual what the author of Hebrews saying. No way, Dr. Whipple can prove 'so great salvation' means millennial kingdom. Where does he get his idea come from?

I have no difficult reading Hebrews 2:3, it is very clear speaking of salvation with warning. Nothing saying in this verse is speak of millennial kingdom, because it does not say, 'a thousand year'.

Even, Late Dr. John R. Rice understoods Hebrews 2:3 so well. He saying, HOW shall we escape , if we neglect so greta salvation. He said, no way that we can afford to reject the gospel, and struck in everlasting fire. There is no way that we can escape from hell, because it is an everlasting fire.

I know hell is a temporary place, just like as jail. But, this place is for already reserved all people await for the coming judgement day(great white throne), THEN, hell shall be cast into the lake of fire. Lake of fire is a final eternality punishment place. Also, Lake of fire IS "the second death" is an eternality punishment. No way, that they shall escape from it.

One more verse before closing this post.

"Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we MAY serve God acceptably with revence and godly FEAR." - Hebrews 12:28

Kingdom, itself never be destroyed, it is an eternality(please read Daniel chapter 7 talks about kingdom). Once we received a kingdom, means having eternal life (John 3:3, 7), we MUST obey and serve the LOrd with godly FEAR.

Kingdom never so called, "millennial kingdom". Because there is none mentioned find anywhere in the Bible saying, kingdom is so called, a thousand years or millennial kingdom.

Kingdom is a picture of a destiny place where followers shall have eternal life is from above where God dwells, nor an earthly, but heavenly.

I would like to add one more verse.

"For our God is a consuming fire." - Hebrews 12:29

Faust teaches, when we stand before Christ at the judgement seat of Christ, a Christian who do not faithful serve to the Lord, and shall suffer loss, so God will blow out of his mouth with fire to destroy Christian's body, send Christian down to hell. Faust's intepreting seems to me, that he interprets it into literally.

I want to tell you. Yes, God have power, if He wants to blow out of his mouth with fire to destroy person's body. That why we must fear of the Lord.

Matt. 10:28 tells us, no man is able to kill or destroy our soul. We do not fear of any person who shall kill our body, but cannot take our soul, neither satan can take our soul. But, rather FEAR God is able to kill both our soul and body. God have rights and power to take our soul away.

Understand Heb. 12:29 shows us, how terror God is, and how powerful He is, and how holy He is. EVERY person shall be fear of the Lord. Include us as every Christians ought always be fear of the Lord daily, because we all shall stand before the Lord, because He shall judge us. There will be no laugh, no fun during judgement day. It will be terrible day for any person who neglect or disobey God, shall suffering everlasting punishment under His wrath.

Obivously, the context of Hebrews chapter 12 talking about warning with conditional, and even it would effect our salvation too.

By the way, being chastening is deal with our living time, not beyond after our death.

If we continue stubborn and rebel against the Lord, then Lord might be fed up, and decide to punish us in his power and rights, in other owrd, he COULD send our soul to hell, IF we do not obey His commandment.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[HankD]

If I died TODAY I don't feel I'd have much reward...but rather would suffer much LOSS.....WHAT will I LOSE? That, my brothers, is the BIG question....and just how afraid should I be? Please be simple and straight with me on this....I hurt about it. I honestly don't feel very good about my christian life much of the time.

WHAT will I LOSE?

What will any of us lose? Here is my view:

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Put these two verses together. Carnal Christians passing from earth to heaven will “suffer loss” from among those things “which God hath prepared for them that love him”. We don’t know what they are because they are unrevealed as to the specifics as 1 Corinthians 2:9 teaches.

There is no such place as "Purgatory".
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

1 John 4
15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment:He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19 We love him, because he first loved us.

If we want the fear to cease then IMO the solution is simple:

John 13
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

John 15
12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Which commandment also has a negative side:

James 4
11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

This does not exclude exhortation of erring or sinning brethren. We are indeed to correct and exhort one another but IMV we are to do so without being one "that speaketh evil of his brother".

Exhortation not as a judge in a punitive manner against his/her person, but as a healer of his/her soul.

HankD

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Thanks Hank...but it may not matter...according to what DeafPostTrib is teaching above I've probably already lost my salvation.I guess the Grace of God and the Blood of Christ wasn't sufficient to keep me(being glib here)saved.I have struggled all my christian life to walk rightly and for a long period of time lived in utter defeat.I "rededicated" my life to the Lord last year and I'm still struggling and battling daily to live rightly.If my ETERNAL SECURITY IS UP TO ME to keep MYSELF SAVED I'm in BIG TROUBLE.God help me...and God help us ALL if our salvation is left in OUR HANDS once we have been saved.I wish I was a Spurgeon or a Moody or a Torrey....but I'm NOT...I want to be like Jesus and have the faith,hope,love and peace that only personifies and comes from Him....but I'm not....and my failings depress and defeat me EVERYDAY.I have done some very unholy and despicable things since the day I accepted Christ as my personal Saviour...and I hurt over every one of them.I guess I'm just not good or holy enough to keep myself in the Grace of God.What hope do any of us have......?Bro. DeafPostTrib...God bless you if you are holy enough to keep yourself saved....maybe God will listen to you as you pray for ME.Excuse me if I sound frustrated.

Greg Sr.

 

[James_Newman]

DPT, your view of conditional salvation, work or be lost for eternity, is a flat out denial of the saving power of the blood of Christ. You can not save yourself from the eternal penalty of sin. It required the sacrifice of the eternal God of the universe to pay that debt. Once that debt was payed, it was payed and it will not be payed again. If the blood of Jesus did not fully satisfy the demand of God's law for us, then we have no hope whatsoever.

Lets do some math:
Suppose Jesus did 90% of the work to save you in eternity, and left you with the remaining 10%. That would mean you owe 10% of the eternal penalty of sin. What is 10% of eternity? Well, it is still eternity. Eternity never ends you see? You can not be good enough to satisfy any of that debt, because you are a finite being without the means.

Suppose you could work out a pay scale, 1 good work = 1,000,000 years of salvation. Sounds very generous to me. So take all your good works and add them up, say you have a million good works (that sounds generous as well) and multiply them by a million years per good work, now we have 1,000,000,000,000 years of salvation! Apply this toward your debt of 10% of eternity, and, well you still owe an infinite debt. As soon as you pay it off, you can have your eternal salvation.

God knew that you could not pay this debt, that is why He sent His only Son to pay it for you. And not just for you, but for anyone who would believe on Him. Because God, for some reason that I cannot fathom, cares about His creations and is not willing that any of us should perish. If you can believe that, then you are redeemed, debt paid in full.

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

When you were bought with that terrible price, you became a servant of the Most High God who redeemed you. He owns you! Do you understand what it means to be the property of another? You are not your own. How should we then expect to receive the reward of a faithful servant when we have lived the life of a slothful, wicked servant? But praise God, in His mercy, He tells us that when we submit ourselves to Him and endure His chastening, He deals with us as sons, no longer as servants! But if we do not endure the chastening, or we faint, we are bastards, and we will receive the wicked servant's portion with the unbelievers. Nevertheless, at the great white throne, we shall be saved! That debt was paid on the cross and when we believed on Jesus Christ as the propitiation for our sins, He was the payment for our sins and we will not be asked to pay that debt again. That would be against God and all that is Holy to receive double payment for the same debt.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Next week, I will discuss more about salvation with verses, and conditional warnings too. Bible teaches there are so overwhelming on conditional salvation, no way we can afford to ignore them.

Also, I will discuss on Christ's blood and atonement too next week.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[johnp.]

 

[av1611jim]

DHK;
Forgive me for the misunderstanding. My intention was not to communicate that which you obviously thought I did.
I did not intend for you to think I was referring to JUST ONE verse following vs 11. You will recall I exhorted you to keep on reading. I used verse 25 to show you that the entire chapter is ONE context.
What I meant for you to grasp (but failed) was to keep on reading, including 25 ...and so on.
Heb 12:28
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29
For our God is a consuming fire.

You will note that the entire chapter concludes with exactly what it is which Paul had in view all along. It is the Kingdom Age. Not this present Age.

You will also note that Paul completely blows the "fear tactic" argument out of the water in this same verse!

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[DeafPosttrib]

It is the Kingdom Age

. Nowhere in the book of Hebrews saying, kingdom is so called millennial kingdom, or a thousand years. Because it does not saying.

Kingdom is speak of from above, not earthly, but heavenly.

John 3:3 tells us, we must be born again, OR we cannot enter the kingdom of God, that means, we must repent of our sins, and shall understand God's spiritual things, or if we do not repent, then we do not understand God's spiritual things. Also, Christ tells us, we must be born again from above. Because we were start with our spiritual death - sin comes from Adam (Romans 5:12). SO, that why we must repent our sins to God, and shall make us alive again. Kingdom is is the picture of have eternal life, also, we shall have our destiny beyond our death, where place - heaven or hell, we go. Christ commands us, that we must be born again to enter kingdom of God-eternal life.

No way, that you can prove us that 'kingdom of God/heaven' is millennial kingdom or a thousand years from the Bible. Because Bible never saying that the kingdom of God/heaven is so called millennial kingdom. None of it mentioned anywhere in the Bible.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[HankD]

No way, that you can prove us that 'kingdom of God/heaven' is millennial kingdom or a thousand years from the Bible. Because Bible never saying that the kingdom of God/heaven is so called millennial kingdom. None of it mentioned anywhere in the Bible.

Revelation 20 mentions "one thousand years" six times and in particular:

Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

True it does not say "kingdom of God" in this immediate context only "thrones" with people "reigning" with Christ implying a kingdom.

To base everything on an exact form of the words without surveying the entire Scripture would result in (for instance) no missionary effort because the word "missions" or "missionary" or the phrase "missionary movement" does not exist in the Bible.

Neither does the word "Trinity", are you a Trinitarian although the word does not exist in the Bible?

The fact is that word "millenium" derives from "mille annis" (1000 years) from the Latin Vulgate of Revelation 20.

Some Christians prefer to be called "chiliasts" deriving from the Greek "chilia" (1000).

So there is some semantic and contextual scriptural support for "millenial kingdom" (people sitting on thrones) "reigning" with Christ a thousand years.

and OK, to be honest the same goes for the word "purgatory".

So I guess it's a matter of personal choice (soul liberty).

HankD

 

[Lacy Evans]

Bro Greg Perry Sr.,

Ever since your last couple of posts on this thread, you have been on my mind. I went out of town this weekend and led worship at a little country church so I haven't been able to reply. But I have been praying for you.

I wanted to try to answer your post (to the best of my ability) about the doctrine of Millenial Exclusion. Let me preface it by saying I believe the age old debate of Once-saved-always-saved (Baptists, Brethren) vs. Conditional Salvation (Methodists, most Charismatics, Nazarenes, etc.) is completely settled by this doctrine.

I believe that we are eternally secure instantly when we first believe. (With all the implications intact.)

If you look, whenever the "loss of salvation" verses come up (If you debate a methodists or an Assembly of God) watch and see how many times eternal salvation is not in mind at all. Instead the Kingdom of God (Millenial Kingdom) is in mind. (1 Cor 6:9-10, Gal 5:19-20, Eph 5:5-7, etc.)

I believe eternally secure Christians can lose their inheritance (like Esau) but never their salvation. In other words, if entrance to the Kingdom is the thing that is conditional upon works after faith (and hence the thing that can be lost), then Salvation by faith alone is left pure.

It would be a terrible thing to miss the Kingdom. It scares me to think about it. But that fear motivates me. (2 Cor 5:10,11)

Let me tell you frankly what I believe about your posts.

I'm not sure I know enough to join in this debate but I would like someone to "frame the issue" clearly for me so I have a few questions.
1)At the JSOC believers will be judged for the works they did after being saved....right?

Exactly! Both good and bad.

2)They will be rewarded...for what?

Heb 11:6,26, Matt 8:23-35, Luke 12:41-48

Scripture is clear that we will be judged for the works we have done after we believed. Negative and positive rewards are BOTH promised throughout Scripture.

OR...

3)They will suffer LOSS...being tried by FIRE....for what?

For not abiding. (Rom 11:21-23)
For gross sin.(1 Cor 6:9-10, Gal 5:19-20, Eph 5:5-7, etc.)
For sowing to the flesh (Gal 6:7-9)
For doing wrong. (Col 3:23-25)
For refusing to patiently suffer. (2 Thess 1:4-12, 2 Tim. 2:11-13)
For not "loving his appearing" (2Tim 4:6-8)
For unbelief (Heb 2:2-3, 3:1-19, 4:1-11)
For forsaking the assembly.(Heb 10:22-31)
For refusing to allow the Holy Spirit to work in youholiness and peace with men.Heb 12:14, 25.)
For not enduring temptation. (James 1:12)
For not showing mercy.(James 2:13)
For forgetting that our sins were purged (Or acting like we forgot) (2 Pet 1-12)

That's plenty for now. It seems dauntingly overwhelming. That's why when applied to Salvation (Eternal salvation) it produces despair. But when it is applied properly to Millenial inheritance and entrance to the Kingdom, though still not easy, it is possible. It is possible for several reasons. It is the Lord's good pleasure to GIVE us the Kingdom. Mercyfulness goes a long way. We have full assurance that the Holy Spirit dwells within us and is working in us with all the power of god to produce fruit in us. (In other words we are saved and have full family access to all of God's power.) God wants us to win crowns because they are really for his glory. We'll throw them down at Christ's feet. And most of all, because we are saved, our works are sanctified by the blood of Christ and acceptable to the Father!

Not easy. Suffer. Strive. Wrestle. Fight. Endure. These are Kingdom words. These are words only for the saved.

AND...

4)What is the nature and effect of this "firey" judgement?

This is the scary part. This is where most folks jump ship. Let me start off with the two MORE extreme positions.
1) We are OSAS, Eternally secure and can live like the Devil and have no accountability.
2) We might lose our salvation and be cast into the Lake of fire for billions and Billions of ages and eternity.

Those two extremes are very popular. I believe both are dead wrong.

Read Luke 12:46 right now and tell me what you think it means.

Luke 12:46
The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

I believe that 1000 years is only a (relatively infinitesimal) portion of eternity.

AND...

5)What effect or consequence will a believer suffer or enjoy in the upcoming millenial Kingdom in the 1000 year reign of Christ and the church on this earth?

I believe there are certainly degrees of reward for those who obtain entrance and degrees of chastening for those who are excluded. God is a righteous judge and weighs all things. A cold drink of water will be rewarded.

I have tried to follow the debate as posted in this thread but it has been rather confusing.Sometimes I feel as though as a Christian....due to the ups and downs of my christian life I'll just make it "in" by the "skin of my teeth".If I died TODAY I don't feel I'd have much reward...but rather would suffer much LOSS.....WHAT will I LOSE? That,my brothers,is the BIG question....and just how afraid should I be?Please be simple and straight with me on this....I hurt about it.I honestly don't feel very good about my christian life much of the time.

Greg Sr.

It is a sin not to be afraid. It is a sin to use the love of God as an excuse to be slothful and disobedient.The fear of God is the beginning of all knowledge. Be as afraid as it takes to be motivated to live holy.

It is also a sin to despair and to use the severity of God as an excuse to quit. ("I knew you were a hard man so I buried my talent.")

You sound exactly like Paul (see 1Cor 9:27, 2 Cor 5:9-11, and Phil 3:11-15) He was unsure of his Kingdom entrance. But he used the uncertainty to motivate him to draw near to the sure and abiding power of Christ.


Lacy

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Lacy...thank you for the kind post and what seems very much like a balanced view on the subject.Pray for me brother...I'm really struggling with some sinful habits in my life that are leftovers from a "season" of sin in my life when I basically gave up out of discouragement for a period of years.God never gave up on me though....I know that because he whoooed me back and has blessed me.I have a strong desire to not only know about the Lord Jesus....but also to KNOW Him in a more personal way...and the power of His resurrection.Pray that I'll find the way to overcome these "strongholds" in my life and serve Him in faith.

Greg Sr.

 

[av1611jim]

Greg, brother;
Take heart and have comfort. Your post exposes the heart of a man who Christ will in no wise cast out. Many siants of old, as well as both testaments describe just such a struggle as you. Yet God in His mercy has described MANY of them as champions of the faith, i.e. David, Paul et al.

I fully know what you speak of. The man who DOES NOT have such struggles, I would seriously question if he was even regenerate. It is evidence of the Holy Spirit of God working in your heart to conform you to the image of His Son that you would describe such a struggle.

Yet, if I may say, be encouraged my friend. God is ever present to help you. You mentioned part of a verse. this is the rest of it...
Php 3:10
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14
I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

It is the Kingdom that Paul is talking about here. And you will note, that he says he doesn't consider himself to have already attained it but he presses on. Just like you.

Take heart brother, you have a tender heart, and you will overcome, in the power of Christ. For it is He who promised to finish the good work He has begun in you. Just YEILD to Him. Surrender. Quit fighting it yourself and let Him do it for you. It has worked for countless others before you. The trouble is; when we say we are struggling, perhaps we ought to rather say, "I have quit fighting and now it is Christ in me the Hope of Glory". "The life that I now live in the flesh is no more I that liveth but Christ which liveth in me." "I live, yet NOT I, but Christ liveth in me."

Prayin' fer ya' Bro.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Some teaching, we have to fight for our faith to enter the kingdom, that means, we must fight with our faith for to inherit millennial kingdom. Or, if we failed to overcometh it, and we cannot inherit millennial kingdom. If you think that teaching is correct.

Jesus Christ tells us in Matthew 7:13-14, there are two roads. there is a wide road, where most people are on that wide road, its lead to destruction. There is a narrow road, some people are on narrow road, it leads to life.

Destruction is speak of everlasting death in hell. Entering narrow to life is speak of eternal life in heaven with the Lord.

Faust says of Matt. 7:13-14, many who are failed to enter, will miss millennial kingdom. He said:

'Proof That the Kingdom Can Be Missed

There are many passages in the Bible that plainly teach that disobedient Christian are in danger of missing the millennial kingdom:

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Christ is here addressing His disciples who already believe upon Him(John 3:16). The strait gate gate is entrance into the millennium... Believers who walk in disobedience are in danger of missing the kingdom.' - pp. 78 'The Rod: Will God Sapre It?'

His teaching or intepreting of Matt. 7:13-14 is a serious error.

Most baptist pastors in America easily understand Matt. 7:13-14 simply telling us, there are only two places, where all people will go. Wide road lead to hell, narrow road to heaven. Christ does not saying a word, 'a thousand years' in Matt. 7:13-14.

Also, Faust used Matt. 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." - pp. 78 'The Rod: Will God Spare It?'

This verse is speak of during great white throne day, many people will saying to Christ, that they done good works to enter heaven. Look Matt. 7:23, Christ shall saying to them, "I NEVER know knew you: DEPART FROM ME. ye that work INIQUITY." Christ is speak to whom? Christians? Yes, but not just for Christians only, also, speak to wicked people, word 'iniquity' means, wicked and sinful. True that there are many religions in the world, that they doing their good works for their god, or Lord. But, they did not repent of their sins, in other word, they do their own good works, but remain in sins without repent.

Matt. 7:23 is speak of Christ will tell to them, "Depart from me", where they will going? To everlasting fire. Matt. 7:23 is refer to Matt. 25:41- "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels."

Obivously, Matt. 7:23 & 25:41 both are speak of Christ shall say to them, "Depart from me", people who disobey him, or remain in sins, will go into everlasting fire is lake of fire! It is not a temporary place! It is everlasting place!

Later today or tomorrow, I will make a long post to discuss on 'thousand' with many verses, verses telling which one is literal or figurative.

Because premills always emphasis on Rev. 20:2-7, 'a thousand years' is literal and exactly of length time for reign.

Myself was a premill for a long time. Till 5 years ago, I left premill belief, because I relaized there are much conflicts in the Bible on premill doctrine. I will show you the details from the Bible, why there are conflicts with premill doctrine later this week.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Bartholomew]

Dear Greg,

I very rarely have chance to comment on here now, but I used to have exactly the same problem with this doctrine as you can see. I knew I would be rewarded according to works, but my works weren't up to much! And I KEPT falling into sin!

Then I read a book which pointed something out: it's not what I can do that matters; it's what God can do!

Why were the Israelites refused entry into the promised land? Was it because they couldn't defeat the giants? No. It was because they didn't trust God enough to defeat the giants. They didn't say, "Lord, just go and defeat the giants for me why I just turn up with my sword." And that's the point. If WE try to get in there we'll fail. But if we totally submit ourselves to him, we'll be victorious! And one of the great things about it is that just as he WANTS us to surrender everything to him in terms of salvation, so he WANTS us to surrender everything to him in terms of our walk. You see, it is Christ's blood that purges us from dead works to serve the living God; it is his blood that was shed so that we, being dead to sin, might live unto righteousness; it is him who always provides a way of escape from every temptation. And no matter how bad we've been he wants us to fall down, confess it, bring it all under that blood (we can do NOTHING to pay for it ourselves!) AND HE WILL EMPOWER US TO LIVE FOR HIM. Or rather, we will be dead and HE WILL LIVE IN US! And he will REJOICE in doing that!

And then I realised: "Fear not... it is your Father's GOOD PLEASURE to GIVE you the kingdom." He isn't asking us to do something really hard. He will give us the kingdom if we will only live in the power he supplies! The problem is that we take our eyes off him and either forget or chose to do the right thing. But that's what the world encourages you to do, and that's probably one reason why Paul caounted "all things but LOSS".

I'm certainly not perfect. But these facts have massively helped me. As Jim said:

Originally posted by av1611jim:
Take heart brother, you have a tender heart, and you will overcome, in the power of Christ. For it is He who promised to finish the good work He has begun in you. Just YEILD to Him. Surrender. Quit fighting it yourself and let Him do it for you. It has worked for countless others before you. The trouble is; when we say we are struggling, perhaps we ought to rather say, "I have quit fighting and now it is Christ in me the Hope of Glory". "The life that I now live in the flesh is no more I that liveth but Christ which liveth in me." "I live, yet NOT I, but Christ liveth in me."

Prayin' fer ya' Bro.

In HIS service;
Jim

Amen! And Amen! I truely pray this helps you, brother,

Bartholomew

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I would like to show you a clear passage from the Bible explaining kingdom of God/heaven, what itself means.

In Matthew 19:16-25, it is about a young rich man came to Jesus, and asked him: "Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have ETERNAL LIFE?" - vs. 16.

A young rich man does not asking Christ about 'millennial kingdom' or 'a thousand years kingdom', because he never hear of that term before, also, that doctrine was not yet existed during Christ's ministry. A young rich man asked Christ, that he wanted to know, what shall he do, that he may have ETERNAL LIFE.

Then, Christ tells him, if you wants to into eternal life, then KEEEEEEEP the commandments- vs. 17.

Then, a man asked Christ, which one of the commandments? Christ said to him, do not killed, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not carry false witness, obey parents, love your neighbour as thyself. - vs. 18-19. Christ quoted it from Exodus chapter 20 of the Ten Commandments. I believe we ought obey the Ten Commandements, because it is part of Christ's commandment - John 14:15.

Then, a man said to him, that he does many of things but, what thing that he missed in his youth life? - vs. 20

Christ said to him, if he desires to be matured, being completed, he would HAVE TO surrender everything what he have, go and sell everything what he have, give things to poor people, and shall have reward in heaven, and come and FOLLOW ME - vs. 21.

What happened to a rich man? He was bitter and heart hardened, he refused surrender his own life, and refuse let his own life go, and want to keep his own things. He refuse follow Christ, and he walked away from Christ - vs. 22

Then Christ said: "Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And AGAIN I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." - vs. 23-24.

Christ told to His disciples, hard for a rich man to enter into kingdom of God/heaven. Why?

Christ used camel as illustration. Christ knows camel's character. Camel is a huge animal. It is in the Middle East. Camels are located mostly in the desert. Camel's attitude shows its humble and no complain. Camel easily accept to carry heavy load on its' back, and carry it while on a long journey. Camel does not complain for being carrying heavy load on a long journey. A rich man have no patience, easy to be complain all the time. Having pride and selfish. Harder for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God/heaven than camel.

Luke 9:23-25 tell us, that we must deny our own life, let our own life go, as we yeild up our life and to follow Christ. If we keep our life, then we lose everlasting life from above. And we shall be ashamed at Christ's coming with his angels - vs. 26.

Then, disciples said to Christ, "Who then can be SAVED?" - Matt. 19:25.

'Kingdom of God/heaven' never so called, 'millennial kingdom'. It is speak of eternal life, and it is from above through God's.

John 3:3 tells us, that we must be born to enter into the kingdom of heaven. Or, if we do not be born again, then cannot enter the kingdom of God, that mean, we go to everlasting fire without have Jesus Christ.

One more verse to show you before closing.

One of the disciples, asked Christ, 'Lord, are there FEW that be saved?' And he said unto them. "STRIVE to enter in at the strait gate for MANY, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall NOT be able." - Luke 13:23-24.

Christ told them, MANY who are strive while they are on the road, MOST of them will not able to enter into. Luke 21:24 is same with Matt. 7:13-14. That mean, Christ already know most of them easy give up fighting their faith, and turn away from the Lord, want stay in their own life, they are on the wide road, get off from the narrow road.

Wide road is a picture of easy life, and have many offerings what they want, and want to have their own pleasure rather than give up everything what they have and to follow Christ. Narrow road is a picture of difficult way, that we must fight of our faith all the way to the end just same as Paul said, "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith." - 2 Tim. 4:7. Paul tells us, that he fought all the way through all his life till his death. He already overcometh them by through the faith.

Matt. 10:22; and 24:13 both telling us, that we ought to be endure all the way to the end, THEN shall be saved. OR, if we do not endure all the way till our death, then we shall not be saved.

Being entering narrow road is NOT easy.

Narrow road is not speak of entering millennial kingdom, but set our hope of eternal life - Titus 1:2; 2:13; & 3:7 by our endure all the way till our death or Lord comes.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[James_Newman]

http://inthebeginning.org/schoettle/booksonline/craig/eternallife.htm

S.S. Craig wrote about the dualism of eternal life, oddly enough in his book entitled 'The Dualism of Eternal Life.' It is available online at the link above.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Mr. Newman,

172 PAGES!!!

Oh boy! You seems throw link away to me, that you do not want to discuss with me on verses, as what I recently reply to you on 'kingdom of God/heaven'

Recent, I went to the library, and made print of them all cost me $17 dollars.

I do love collect many Christian books. I own many books in my library. Brumleyj did visited my apt twice. He saw my library. I love to study doctrines and theology.

Please be patience with me, I am going to read throughout whole of 172 pages today, and then I will reply back to you, what these in that book saying - tomorrow. I do expecting, there are so many errors and misinterpreting in that book. When after I finish reading that book, I will reply back to you what these saying.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[James_Newman]

You don't have to read it all, but it is concievable that every time the bible says eternal life, it may not be refering strictly to our eternal salvation(that you say we must work for). There is the side of eternal life that we recieve by believing on Christ, and there is the side of eternal life that we recieve by adding works to our faith. If we obtain the crown and the reward of the kingdom, of necessity we have already obtained the free gift of our eternal salvation at the great white throne. In one sense, you are merely entering into eternal life sooner than those who do not inherit the kingdom. I doubt I explain it well, but do read the book if you like, and we will start a thread on it.