Baptist Purgatory

[Bartimaeus]

Bro Lacy,
After reading your previous posts, specifically the ones where you listed requirements for obedience in certain commands by the Lord, can you please advise me the "threshold" for being an unprofitable servant? If I am in disobedience in one area will I be excluded or does it take five or ten? Also does any one of those areas count for more than another? Who decides the boundaries?
A Visible Kingdom on the earth has been in the building process since approx. 300 AD. This visible kingdom has been built by preachers who have kept their people under the bondage of fire for not doing enough, not giving enough, not following enough, not denying enough, not going enough and not being a profitable servant. How is the doctrine of Kingdom Exclusion different?
Thanks ------Bart

 

[DeafPosttrib]

To be continued...

Let me explaining more clear on 12,000 tribes of each 12 tribes of Israel. The number of 12,000 tribes represent, it is completed or perfectly numbers. Notice it telling us 12,000 tribes of EACH 12 tribes of Israel, why do it saying '12,000' tribes of each 12 tribes. Are they literal exactly or specifically numbers of each 12 tribes? Why ALL 12 tribes are each 12,000 tribes equally? Why not 12,500 tribe of Simeon, why not 15,000 tribe of Judah, why not 20,000 tribe of Gad, etc...? Why all of these are 12,000 equally? Are all of these are literal numbers? No, these are symbolic numbers, these are represetn of completed. Also, 144,000 represent that it is being completed.

Daniel 7:9-10 "I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: THOUSAND THOUSANDS ministered unto him, and TEN THOUSAND times TEN THOUSAND stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened." 'Ten thousand' of Dan. 7:10 does not take it into literal exactly numbers, but it presents of multitude, mutlitude of countles speople all shall face the Great White Throne, this is speak same as find in Rev. 20:11-15.

When after David killed Goliath, David and King Saul both were on the way to their home. 1 Samuel 18:6-8 say: "And it came to pass as they came, when David was returned from the slaughter of the Philistine, that the women came out of all cities of Israel, singing and dancing, to meet king Saul, with tabrets, with joy, and with instrumnets of musick. And the women answered one another as they played, and said, Saul hath slain his THOUSANDS, and David his TEN THOUSANDS. And Saul was very wroth."

Women in the villages have no idea, how many Philistines, Saul and David have killed them. But, no doubt, they must have heard rumours from the spreading news that David killed Goliath. That why, Saul was a good warrior, but David was a GREATER warrior, that caused King Saul became jealous and want to kill David so badly.

Psalm 84:9-10 "Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed. For a day in thy courts is better than A THOUSAND. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness." David's point that it shows how powerful God is, he does not need many as 1,000 guards to protect him, because God is his shield and the rock of salvation.

Psalm 50:10-11 "For every beast of the forst is mine, and the catte upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine."

If supposed this verse speaks of the exactly numbers of the hills, then that means it is limited number as what God owns. The context of this passage speaks of God created everything of the earth as what He owns. Doesn't God owns 1,001 hills? Doesn't God owns 1,0002 hills? This verse makes a point that God owns ALL hills of the earth, that he created, not just only hills, also, he owns EVERYTHINGS- lands, lakes, oceans, animals, etc.

Ecclesiastes 6:6 "Yea, though he live A THOUSAND years twice told, YET hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?" This verse telling us, that a person might still alive up to 1000 years, yet, his life is worthless and vain like as "under the sun" comparing as worthless under the Son of God.

Job 9:2-3 "I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him of A THOUSAND." This verse is speak of our understanding being limited, God's knowledge is more beyind than our understanding and knowledge. His knowledge is more zillion times beyond than our knowledge. God is an omniscience, means God knows everythong from A to Z.

1 Corinthians 4:15 "For though have TEN THOUSAND instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel." Paul telling us, that you have numerous teachers in Christ, yet we not have many fathers. Paul's point is, we only have ONE teacher is Jesus Christ than 10,000 or 20,000 teachers of the world.

1 Corinthains 14:19 "in the church I had rather speak FIVE WORDS with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than TEN THOUSANDS words in an unknown tongue." Paul tells us, he rather to teaching simple small things as basic doctrine than complex or deeper teachings like as philosophy or strang languages.

2 Peter 3:8 "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that ONE DAY is with the Lord AS A THOUSAND years, and A THOUSAND years AS ONE DAY." Peter could have saying, two days with the Lord as 2,000 years if he wants to. But, not necesscaru for him to saying it. Peter's point is, our thought is different what God's thought. In our sight, we think 1,000 days seem tooooooooo long time. But to Lord's sight, He thinks 1,000 years are tooooooo short time for Him, like AS 1 day in the Lord's sight.

Now, I am discuss on Rev. 20:2-7, premills emphasis oon these are speak of 'a thousand years' is a literal and exactly of how length time, Christians shall reign with Christ.

Rev. 20:2-7 give us the picture that 'a thousand years' is not a literal, but figurative of spiritual meaning. 'A thousand years', it represent of a length time for Christians reigning with Christ. Christians have been reigning with Christ for nearly 2,000 years since after Christ ascend back into the heaven. In other word, Christians could have continue to reigning with Christ in the next 1,000 years(3000 A.D.) or beyond. We do not know when it shall be expired, only God knows when it shall be expired. Rev. 20:1-7 give us the picture that Christ already overcome Satan by calvary(Gen. 3:15), that Christ already give "key"(power) to the Church, that the Church now can spreading the gospel over the world. Satan have no power to stop Church from spreading the gospel over the world- Matt. 16:18-19; Matt. 28:18-20; and Acts 1:8.

I could have show you TONS of verses of 'thousand' if I want to. But, I suggest you better look for word, 'thousand' with verses in STRONG'S Concordance. You can looking at it, and reading these verses, verses telling us, which one is literal or figurative.

Conclusion: No way, exclusionists can prove these verses of 'Kingdom of God/heaven' or 'eternal' being represent 'a thousand years', because none of these saying, "a thousand years". Kingdom of God/heaven is speak of spiritual things from above where God owns it, also, it is speak of eternality kingdom according Dan. 7:14, 18, & 27. And its is also speak of our future eternalkity destiny where we shall spend it follow our salvation- John 3:3 & 7. By the way, I do NOT deny the literal things from the Bible, for xexample, Christ was born through virgin Mary without sex from man is a miracle - literal. Christ died on the cross - literal, Christ risen with his body or physical - literal, etc... Unless depend on what the grammar or sentence is talking about. Not every verses are literal, unless depend on what grammar or sentance is talking about. There are so many verses are talking about spiritual things. That why we have to be careful when we read and study the Bible. We better not be misunderstanding the Bibkle, what these are talking about. We must be a serious study and intepreting Bible correctly according 2 Timothy 2:15.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Bartimaeus:
Bro Lacy,
After reading your previous posts, specifically the ones where you listed requirements for obedience in certain commands by the Lord, can you please advise me the "threshold" for being an unprofitable servant? If I am in disobedience in one area will I be excluded or does it take five or ten? Also does any one of those areas count for more than another? Who decides the boundaries?

Dear Brother Bart,

This is a very reasonable question. If we are in danger of being judged an unprofitable servant at the JSOC, where are the lines?

I want to do two things to answer your question.

1) I want to show you how I believe Paul felt about rewards.

In the following scriptures and in others, (1 Cor 9:27, 2Cor 5:9-11, Phil 3:11-15, Heb 4:11) Paul demonstrates a real uncertainty that unnerves us who believe in eternal security.
This can only be reconciled when we apply it to what Paul is applying it to which is rewards.

In other words we can have absolute assurance in our eternal justification because the work it is based on (Christ's on the cross), is absolutely pristine and perfect. However, I, you, the apostle Paul, (and every other Christian who ever lived), cannot have the same assurance in our rewards simply because rewards are based on our works after faith and they vary from person to person and situation to situation.

2) I want to propose to you a self-reflecting question. (One that messed me up when I asked myself.)

Why start worrying now about the "boundries", the "threshold" and the "limitations"? Do you not believe that you stand to "lose jewels in your crown", suffer loss (Whatever degree), etc at the JSOC? Have you ever once tried to convince yourself otherwise by questioning "Boundaries"? Why does it take such a severe threat to make us think about "the line"?
Why are we so dismally unconcerned with losing a couple of jewels?

I propose that it is because losing crowns and jewels in a place where the gates are made of pearl and the streets are paved with gold is no motivation at all. (Not to mention not Biblical)

(continued)

 

[Lacy Evans]

A Visible Kingdom on the earth has been in the building process since approx. 300 AD. This visible kingdom has been built by preachers who have kept their people under the bondage of fire for not doing enough, not giving enough, not following enough, not denying enough, not going enough and not being a profitable servant. How is the doctrine of Kingdom Exclusion different?
Thanks ------Bart

Bart,

Does this doctrine make you feel like you are in bondage? It is Bible to compel ourselves and others to do good works and to warn them for for not doing enough, not giving enough, not following enough, not denying enough, not going enough and not being a profitable servant. That is not the exclusive domain of Catholics.

The first Real and tangible difference is that we are secure of our salvation. We are not in fear of losing salvation (and never wondering if we even are saved). We know that we have the Holy Spirit to empower us. No doubt. We know that our works, though imperfect, flawed, and soiled by our flesh, are made perfect and righteous because we have the priviledge of offering them up through Christ's blood.

The second difference is this. We are not building this visible kingdom. It is coming. With or without us. We are hoping, longing, praying, suffering, and laboring to enter this Kingdom. Our kingdoms have to fall before we can even qualify.

lacy

 

[Lacy Evans]

DPT

(please start a new thread)

The 1000 years in Rev 20 comes to an end, (v7) is fulfilled (v2) etc. The reign of Christ has a resurrection before (v4) and a resurrection after(v5). Satan is losed after the 1000 years. (v7). The GWT judgment is afterward.(v11)

You must reconcile all of these points to be able to interpret this 1000 year reign as figurative.

"Rev 20 never says "1000" is figurative."

Can you tell me how a "figurative" 1000 years comes to an end?

lacy

 

[Bartimaeus]

DeafPostTrib
I believe the correct way to answer someone who brings up another subject would be to invite the person to another topic and go immediately to the "start topic" button at the bottom of the page opening another thread. I believe you should start another topic and move to discuss these other issues rather than filling up 4-6 pages discussing a word or another book, ect. and simply correct ethics.
Thanks ------Bart

 

[Bartimaeus]

Bro Lacy,
No 1 above, I agree. Rewards will be judged by the Lord in purpose, attitude, strength and many other scriptural standards of which neither of us would debate.
No 2 above, I must answer, I do not worry about the boundaries, so to speak, I pray about them. I only mentioned the boundaries because of the exclusionary nature of the debated doctrine. I guess I should ask: if I have one work for Christ that is left after His judgement in all the years since I have been among the redeemed, is that enough to keep me out of Hell? Yet I have been a Christian since 1980 and that would not be very profitable. Will we also be judged by the number of years that we have been under the blood? Here we go: Y-U-B x #-R-J-W's (years under blood multiplied by number of righteous judged work's) What an equation!
Now...I am not unconcerned with losing a few jewels. My concern is, will I have any righteous works left after the judgement fires. Whatever the element the walls and streets are made of is of no real concern either. My concern is, will I be found faithful. Another intresting point you make is to domains. In all that you said and posted you did not deny equal domain with the Catholics in regard to trial by fire for the body. The differences are I am sure correct, but as I said you did not separate your position on judgement from thiers. This is not an emotional position further stated...when I was preaching in the jails I was able to go in to those men after the JW's and Catholics and they immediately recognized the truth and difference in what was being offered. I would not be able to do the same with Kingdom Exclusion. I pray that this is a scriptural position.
I am still waiting on answers to three questions on page 8, last post.
Thanks ------Bart

[ March 21, 2005, 01:44 AM: Message edited by: Bartimaeus ]

 

[James_Newman]

Paul says not to worry about the math, just keep running!

Phi 3
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

We have to remain faithful to the end, there is no equation.

 

[Bartimaeus]

Bro James,
What if I have been faithful for the last twenty years and the Lord comes back tonight and finds me unfaithful in this last hour? I am not trying to be trite, I really want to know.
Thanks ------Bart

 

[DeaconLew]

Bart:
According to Ezekiel this awaits you, me any believer that is unfaithfult at the point of death:

Ezekiel 33:13When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

14Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;

15If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.

The "live" and "die" are not related to this life. Notice that the wicked is told that if he forsakes his wicked "he shall live, he shall not die." Does this mean that he will never die in this life? Of course not. Many a righteous person has died Paul, Jesus etc. No the promise of life for turning from wickedness is not even for eternal life in eternity; otherwise we are saved by "being righteous" and not by the death of Christ on the cross. This must be a life that can be lost or gained at the JSOC.

What say ye?

-DeaconLew

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by Bartimaeus:
Bro James,
What if I have been faithful for the last twenty years and the Lord comes back tonight and finds me unfaithful in this last hour? I am not trying to be trite, I really want to know.
Thanks ------Bart

The problem is you or I could not be faithful till the end without the Lord. But He is able to keep us faithful. It will not be you or I that does the work, but Jesus working through us, that brings us into His kingdom.

Phi 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

You must have faith that He CAN keep you faithful in order to remain faithful. We can be confident of this very thing too.

Luk 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Bartimaeus:
I only mentioned the boundaries because of the exclusionary nature of the debated doctrine.

I don't understand what you mean. Please explain.

Now...I am not unconcerned with losing a few jewels. My concern is, will I have any righteous works left after the judgement fires. Whatever the element the walls and streets are made of is of no real concern either. My concern is, will I be found faithful.

But are you are as concerned about losing the rewards we are commanded to seek, with which we will glorify Christ by casting down at his feet, as you would be about fire (If Millenial Exclusion is true)? Again, I'm not trying to be smart, I am sharing part of my own thought process.

Another intresting point you make is to domains. In all that you said and posted you did not deny equal domain with the Catholics in regard to trial by fire for the body.

The Catholics believe in the trinity, the virgin birth, and the diety of Christ too. This must either stand or fall on comparison with scripture, not comparison to any other group.

. . .when I was preaching in the jails I was able to go in to those men after the JW's and Catholics and they immediately recognized the truth and difference in what was being offered. I would not be able to do the same with Kingdom Exclusion.

I wouldn't preach Millenial Exclusion to non-Christians. Jesus said, if you aren't born again you can't see the Kingdom. They need to get saved. So my message to them would be identical to yours.

I am still waiting on answers to three questions on page 8, last post.
Thanks ------Bart

Im'a gettin' there brother. The hard part is finding them amid all of DPT's posts.

Lacy

 

[Bartimaeus]

Originally posted by James_Newman:

The problem is you or I could not be faithful till the end without the Lord. But He is able to keep us faithful. It will not be you or I that does the work, but Jesus working through us, that brings us into His kingdom.

Phi 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

You must have faith that He CAN keep you faithful in order to remain faithful. We can be confident of this very thing too.

Luk 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. [/QUOTE]

Bro James,
Christ keeps me saved, the Lord Jesus does not keep me righteous in nature, so to speak. YESTERDAY.... I was out of fellowship with a Brother in Christ because I was angry without cause. I have gotten it right with the Lord and the Brother by now, but according to Kingdom Exclusion if the Lord Jesus had come back at that moment.....into hell I go. My nature is to sin and I will until I am out of this body, I don't like it, I hate it, I am ashamed of it, but I can't stop it or completely control it.

Bro Lacy, I am struggling to phrase my thoughts correctly and the incident named above is my best effort to explain my thought on boundaries. Please forgive my inadequate english. I also read a few of my previous posts again and I feel I was too strong and came across with the wrong spirit. I am truly sorry.
Thanks ------Bart

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Bartimaeus:
Bro Lacy, I am struggling to phrase my thoughts correctly and the incident named above is my best effort to explain my thought on boundaries. Please forgive my inadequate english. I also read a few of my previous posts again and I feel I was too strong and came across with the wrong spirit. I am truly sorry.
Thanks ------Bart

When Joey faust (My pastor at the time.) showed me these truths, I don't think I was very nice. As a matter of fact, it was pretty heated there for a while. In my intense anger, I went home determined to prove this doctrine wrong. The more I studied, the more I proved myself wrong.


Lacy

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Bartimaeus:
[QB] Bro Lacy, (and all who espouse the Kingdom Exclustion doctrine)
Please comment on these verses. These were raised very early in the thread and I ask specific questions that were not addressed.
I Cor 3:
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1) Which body is being referenced to in this text? The natural body or the glorified body?

I'm not sure it is either. As I study "glorification" it seems to be given as a reward in degrees. (Da 12:3, Ro 2:7,10, Rom 8:18, 1 Cor 15:39-50, 2 Cor 4:17) I cannot say for sure, but right now I feel that the bodies we stand in at the JSOC will be ressurrected bodies, but not glorified until it is determined what degrees of glorification to give these bodies. I also believe it is possible IMHO that some will recieve no glory.

2) What exactly does the word "destroy" mean here?

It doesn't mean utter annihilation. It doesn't even mean that for unbelievers. Matthew uses the same terms. This passage is addressed directly to disciples.

Mt 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. I can show you many verses where the word "destroy" is temporal.

Let me ask you another question. Who else could have a body between the JSOC and the GWT to be "destroyed" in Hell? Unbelievers are not raised bodily until Rev 20 at the GWT. Hell is subsequently (and immediately)cast into the Lake of Fire.

3) In I Cor 3, when Paul is speaking of a trial of fire, exactly what does he say is to be tried? The works or something else?
Thanks ------Bart

It says his works are burned in v.15. (I'd like to know what that means exactly if the fire doesn't touch the man himself. But verse 16,17 is much more clear, "Him shall God destroy". I believe that the context is pretty clear. How would God burn something like fornication, or murder? (evil works that keep us from inheriting the Kingdom - Gal 5:19-21)

Lacy

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
Mt 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. I can show you many verses where the word "destroy" is temporal.

Dear all, Please forgive my careless lack of enter key use. I never intended to place my own words within the passage. Talk about a bad non-edit. I'm sorry.

Lacy

 

[Bartimaeus]

Bro Lacy,
If what you say is correct then the resurrection will not be a change of the old natural body as mentioned specifically in I Cor 15:51-52, but will be a re-creation. God will have to take the old elements (dust) and re-create the old, natural, dying body. Is there any verses in the scripture to suggest this? This concept begs another question: if your premise is correct and it is not the glorified body that is cast into hell, will the old natural body burn up? Daniel suggests three classes of people.
1. "some to everlasting life"
2. "some to shame and everlasting contempt"
3. "and they that be wise...and they that turn many to righteousness" (listed as one classification due to the similarity of position description on both).
Romans 2 is clearly dealing with the saved and lost and not the saved good and bad. (vs 4 "leadeth thee to repentance" and vs 12 "shall also perish without the law" and finally vs 16 where Paul states "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." God is the Judge and Christ is the standard - that is salvation my friend.
Romans 8 is a wonderful chapter. It may be subjective as to when glorification or to whom it happens but a verse you did not mention in chapter 8 is verse 30. Verse 30 settles the question. All that God starts with as far as the saved is all that He ends with. All the "predestined" are all glorified. Praise the Lord, none fell through the cracks and all recieved glorification.
I have already dealt with I Cor 15 so I will pass to the last verse you give to us. II Cor 4:17. This verse mentions a "far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory". I believe Paul specifies what the weight of glory is. It is found in chapter 15: 1-6.

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
A few observations:
1) There are only two bodies mentioned here not three.
2) Paul mentions the earthly house will not be remaining the same but will "dissolved" and that God clearly has another one for us.
3) The opposite of being found naked (the glorified body) is found in verse 9. Labouring, and being accepted of him. Nakedness is all that is mentioned. There is no further retribution. If there was retribution it would also have to be in the glorified body as I have shown. If you would like for me to continue through chapt 15:11, I can do that but it would not be foundational verses for the exclusion doctrine.
Thanks ----Bart

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Good morning.

You want me to start another new topic.

Well, not necesscary.

Because, Millennial Exclusion is the mostly major or main focus on Eschatology doctrine, also, Soteriology(salvation) doctrine both.

Faust's book "The Rod" in the back of the book, Faust says: "

This alarming doctrine of temportary chastisement ironically protects and magnifies the precious truths of sternal security and salvation through faith alone

I consider 'Millennial Exclusion' is a serious matter base on salvation and Eschatology doctrine issue. No way that we could ignore them. I have rights to debate on this topic. Because of this teaching is part of salvation and escahatology issue. This teaching that, a lazy Christian shall be punish and banned from entering millennial kingdom. Often, this teaching always used, 'millennial' or 'messianic' kingdom all the times. This is premillennial doctrine. No question, this issue is part of eschatology. Also, being exclude from the millennial kingdom, by cast into the hell or hurt second death, is very obivous discuss on the issue of salvation(soteriology). No way, we can ignore this issue. You ask or want me to start new topic. No, I rather stay sticky on this topic. I am not going to hopping like as rabbit. And I am not going being be as 'hijack' of Bart's new topic. I am discuss focus on this same topic.

Lacy,

"Rev 20 never says "1000" is figurative

Well, whatsoever you saying, that is fine with me. You have to be decide or determin by yourself, is the chapter 20 of Revelation, which one is speak of literal or figurative. We should be aware that the Book of Revelation is filled with symbol things, these are speaking of spiritual meanings lot.

You ask me {Quote]Can you tell me how a "figurative" 1000 years comes to an end?[/Quote]

Sure.

First, Rev. 20:1 "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand."

If we think these are literal things, then, therefore these are not spiritual things, huh? Who have the authority to hold the key of the bottomless pit? An angel? I mean lower angel like as Archangel Michael or Gaberail, or other angel? I believe Angel represents Jesus Christ, because He have power to hold the key of the bottomless of pit. How do I know that Jesus have power to hold the key? Look to Rev. 1:18 "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." Who have power to hold the keys of hell and death? Jesus Christ. 'Key' of Rev. 20:1 is the picture of authorize or power. 'a great chain' of Rev. 20:1 is the respresent of restianing or holding back. Rev. 20:1-2 tell us a great chain put on dragon, and hold him, cast him into the bottomless of pit it is a figurative mean, that Satan is holding back, from being deceive the nations.

I am sure that premills saying Satan is still around anywhere and deceiving the nations right now. I know that. Satan is a real person, he is dangerous. Many nations are blind and lost. Satn's duty to blind people from hear the gospel. One thing that Satan cannot stop is to prevent Church from spreading the gospel to the world.

Satan being cast down in the bottomless pit shows the picture that he is bound out as he is holding back by limited his power. Revelation 20:2 supports Luke 10:18; John 12:31; 16:11; 2 Thess. 2:6-7; Rev. 12:4,9; and 17:8. Luke 10:18 says, "And he said unto them, 'I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.'" Christ said, He saw Satan fall from heaven, obivously it find in Rev. 12:4 & 9. The next verse - Luke 10:19 says, "Behold, I GIVE unto you POWER to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you." Christ tells us, Christ give his power to us. Apply to Matthew 16:19 "And I will GIVE unto thee the KEYS of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Matt. 16:19 tells us, Christ give the power to the Church, that we spreading the gospel of the kingdom of heaven to the nations. Also, it refers in Matthew 28:18 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, all POWER is GIVEN unto me in heaven and in earth."

During Old Testament time, all nations were deceived by Satan, because the gospel was not yet spreading over the world. God used only prophets to preaching God's own people - Jews of Israel. Then afterward after the result of Calvary. Satan was bruised by Jesus Christ - Genesis 3:15. In John 12:31 "NOW is the judgment of this world: NOW shall the prince of this world be cast out." This is speak of Calvary, that Christ died for the world through his blood, Christ already overcomed Satan as he was bruised, Satan as 'the prince of this world is cast out is already fulfilled by Calvary. 'Bottomless pit' is not speak of physical but spiritually, that Satan is holding back by Jesus Christ because of Calvary's result. Notice next verse - John 12:32 "And I, I be LIFTED UP form the earth, will draw all men unto me." This vers eis speak of Calvary, that Christ was lifted up on the cross (John 3:14), so the purpose of Calvary is to draw all nations. That why Satan is bound out, and Church have power was given by Jesus Christ, that the Church now spreading the gospel to all nations. satan cannot stop Church from being spreading the gospel to the world. Satan's power is being limited. God have power to hold Satan from deceived the nations - 2 Thess. 2:6-7.

This seems too deep and complex to you. But, we need to understand the purpose of Calvary, what it is all about.

Premills saying Satan being cast in the bottomless pit is not yet occured, it will be occured at the second advent is the future event. If suppose premil is correct. How about Revelation 12:9? John's vision telling us, that Satan was cast out, which deceiveth all nations. 1/3 of God's angels were cast out of heaven with satan. Then, Rev. 12:10 says, "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, NOW is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

Rev. 12:9-10 fulfilled by Calvary, that Satan was cast away, the salvation already come unto all nations of the world, because of the gospel.

Also, Revelation 17:8 "The beast that thou sawest was, and IS NOT; annd SHALL ASCEND OUT of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is NOT, and YET IS." Obivous, Rev. 17:8 tells us, the beast is NOW in the bottomless of pit, he is NOT yet ascend out of the bottomless pit. Rev. 17:8 supports Rev. 20:2-3,7.

You asked me how the millennial will be end?

Right now, we are realized that our gospel of the kingdom is already spreading over the world. Satan cannot stopped us, because Christ already given His power to us, that we spreading the gospel to the world(Matt. 16:18-19; Matt. 28:18-20; and Acts 1:8). How shall the millennial shall be end? By follow the sign of apostasy of the Church according in 2 Thess. 2:3. Apostle Paul tells us, our gathering together at Christ's coming shall not come till we must first see the two things to come past - "falling away first" and the revealed of man of sin. Throughout centuries, the apostasies already happening for long time. But the climax of apostasy among churches are increasing worser daily throughout years to years. God notice many Christians are falling away, backslidding, compromising with the world. God shall be fed up with Christians. Right now, God is longsuffering with us, because God wants Churches to spreading the gospel to the world for salvation. Also, God does not want nations to be perished, but want all nations come to repentance - 2 Peter 3:9. That why, God holds Satan back from being to be revealed and to deceive the nations. God does not allow Satan to be revealed and to deceive the nations. God desires all nations to repentance of sins, and to hear the gospel from Christians first. 2 Thess. 2:6 tells us, God does not allow Satan to be revealed, because God knows time is not yet. God knows when the right time to come. When God sees the apostasy become worst so badly. For example- the revivals become fade away, many Christians stopped witness gospel to the world. Many Christians fall into sins and compromising. Then, God shall be fed up with churches - 1 Peter 4:17, for being not obey God. God shall judge on churches. Then, God knows when the right time to come. God will allow Satan to be loosed out of the way- 2 Thess. 2:7, then Satan shall be revealed to the world - 2 Thess. 2:8. According Rev. 20:3,7 telling us, when millennial expired, Satan shall be loosed out of the way, and then shall deceived the nations.

Right now, Satan is not yet revealed, he is the "angel of light", he is an angel, remember himself was Lucifer, when he guarded God's throne in the heaven. Lucifer became pride want to be equal with God. Then Lucifer was kicked out of the heaven with 1/3 angels of God, because they follow Lucifer. Now, Satan is still an angle, and he is invisible, we cannot see where Satan goes, he is spirit. He does not have body.

Remember, during Old testament time, Jesus was an angel, he have no literal body, he was just spirit. 2,000 years, Christ came down from heaven, he became man in flesh and body. Satan shall do the same thing, as he shall be transformed into man to be act like Messiah.

Jesus Christ done his miracles by healing people. Satan will do the same by doing mircales to deceive the nations - Matt. 24:24; 2 Thess. 2:9; and Rev. 13:13.

Satan will copy Christ's way but for "a little season" - Rev. 20:3. I believe "a little season" will be last for around 42 months, 'a time, and times and the dividing of time' - Dan. 7:25; Rev. 11:2; 12:6,14; and 13:5- 3 1/2 years.

Because when Christ was on earth, his ministry was only around 3 1/2 years before his death. So, Satan shall do the same thing as what Christ does in the great tribulation time.

We are now in realized millennial since Christ already ovecome Satan by Calvary, and Christ already given power to the Church, Church is now spreading the gospel to the world. Satan cannot stop Church from spreading the gospel to the world. Till when church became apostasy worser, God knows when the right to come, God shall allow Satan to be loosed out of the way, and to deceived the nations for a little season, that would be in the great tribulation.


A thousand years' of Rev. 20:2-7 does not taking into literal exactly of how long it will be last. The gosepl have been spreading over the world for nearly 2,000 years, that is two thousand years. Or, the gospel might be continue for the next another 1,000 years(3000 A.D.), if God permits. 'A thousand years' represents length time, not a short time. It could be 2,000 years, or 3,000 years, or 4,000 years. It represents of LENGTH TIME, not short time.

Last Saturday, I already show you many verses in the Bible, that discuss about 'thousand', what these are talking about. I do not deny the literal things. Unless depend on what the grammar is talking about. Remember that, many verses in the Bible talking of spiritual things LOT. That why we have to be careful what we reading and intepreting, do not be misunderstanding what these passages are talking about.

I will continue discuss more on millennial doctrine later.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

James Newman,

You mentioned of Phil. 3:13-14. I agree with this 100%. Apostle Paul telling us, that we must forget the former things, what we have done, and get up, and repent, go forward straight in our life right now. Because we were called by God, as He commanded us go and preach the gospel, also to obey Him, whatsoever things we do, we obey Him. Right now, we are in the spiritual warfare. We are in the race right now since we were called by God. Christ tells us, that we are in the warfare while we are on the road according Matthew 7:13-14 & Luke 13:24.

If you think Luke 13:24 is not matter of salvation issue? Oh yes.

Read the context of Luke 13:23-25- "Then said one unto him, Lord, are there FEW that be SAVED? And he said unto them, 'STRIVE to enter in at the strait gate: for MANY, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall NOT be able. When once the master of the the house is risen up, and hath SHUT TO THE DOOR, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, 'I know you NOT whence ye are:"

One of the disciples asked Christ, why there are so few to be saved? Christ told them, many are strive to enter into the road, most of them are seek, will NOT able to enter. The next verse(25) says, when the church is lifted up(picture of rapture), then door is shut, and person run to the door, and knocking, begging Lord to enter into. Lord shall saying to a person, "I do NOT KNOW you" , this verse is refer with Matt. 7:23; Matt. 25:12. That mean, person will miss the opporunity of salvation, when the door once shut("day of salvation" is past- Jer. 8:20; and 2 Cor. 6:2). Matt. 7:23 warns, "And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNOW you: DEPART FROM ME, ye that work INIQUITY." This verse warns us, in the judgment day, Lord shall telling to the religions include baptists, He does not know them, send them away from him, into everlasting fire - lake of fire. Matt. 7:23 is refer with Matt. 25:41 -"The shall he say also unto them on the left hand, DEPART FROM ME, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE(NOT temporary fire), prepared for the devil and his angels."

Right now, we are in spiritual warfare since after we were called by God, we are commanded to be endure all the way(Matt. 10:22; 24:13) to the end. OR, if we do not endure all the way to the end, then we shall NOT be saved. This is serious matter of salvation issue, no way that we can afford to avoid or ignore it.

You mentioned of Phil. 3:13-14, also, this passage refers with 1 Cor. 9:24-27. Paul tells us, we must be strive to receive the prize. What's the prize for? ETERNAL LIFE - Romans 6:23. Paul warns, "But I keep under my body, and bring it unto subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to thers, I myself should be a CASTAWAY." - 1 Cor. 9:27. 'Castway' means reject, unapproved, worthless, disqualified. Paul warns, if he does not surrender his life to Christ, and not race for Christ, then he might be cast away!!! Cast away is warned of John 15:6; Romans 11:19-22.

Deaconlew,

You mentioned of Ezekiel 33:13-15. Didn't you aware this passage is serious warning to us of conditional? 'Life' & 'death' both are not speak of physical, but spiritual. This passage warns us, if we return back to our old ways or wicked again, then we shall dead. It speaks of spiritual death. Death of what? Only spiritually meaning? I mean, temporary death? Clear, 'dead' is speak of spiritual death, what 'dead' would be lead to? Everlasting punishment, shall suffer the second death of Rev. 20:15.

Also, in Luke 15:32 tells us, father says to his older son, that his younger brother was dead, and is alive again, and was lost, and is found. Christ was not speak of physical, but spiritual.

Throughout in the Bible emphasis us that we ought to repent of our sins, or if we remain in sins, our spiritual is dead. First, we all were born - spiritual death comes from Adam because of sinned according Romans 5:12. SO, we must be born again, that means we must be alive again by repent of our sins. Ezekiel 33:13, 18 warn us, if 'righteous' or 'just' turn away from ("shall not be rememmbered"-Ezk. 33:13)-the first place("first Love" of Rev. 2:4), and return to wicked again, shall be die again.

During in our lifetime, we are in spiritual warfare. When we hear the gospel, we repented of sins and be born again, to be alive again. but if we turn away(fall away), and remain in sins without confess of sin all the way, our spirit shall be die. IF we do not repent of our sins to the Lord all the way through our life till death, then we shall always be remain in spiritual death, what the result of die? - everlasting punishment, and suffer of second death in the lake of fire - Rev. 20:15.

Hebrews 6:4-6 telling the same thing as Ezekiel chapter 33 warning. Heb. 6:4-6 telling us, in the firs place, when a person tastes understanding of salvation, then afterward falling away, cannot be renew again.

Understand, we still have chance to repent of our sins WHILE we still alive (soul dwells within our body). But, if we remain in sins without repent all the way till our death, then no way to be renew again of our salvation. Heb. 6:4-6 is a very serius passage warning. If you think Heb. 6:4-6 is not relate with our salvation? Oh yes, look context follow Heb. 6:9- "But, beloved, are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak."

I look word, 'accompany' in Greek word, it means holding fast. Verse 9 tells us, Paul was concerning of them about their salvation, he told them, that they ought to hold their salvation till the end -read Heb. 6:11. Or in other word, if we do not endure to the end, then we shall be cast in the fire - Heb. 6:8.

Hebrews 6:4-6 is much same with Ezekiel chapter 33 warning about turn away and remaineth in sins will lead to death- everlasting fire.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:

If you think Luke 13:24 is not matter of salvation issue? Oh yes.

Read the context of Luke 13:23-25- "Then said one unto him, Lord, are there FEW that be SAVED? And he said unto them, 'STRIVE to enter in at the strait gate: for MANY, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall NOT be able. When once the master of the the house is risen up, and hath SHUT TO THE DOOR, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, 'I know you NOT whence ye are:"

Saved? From what?

Ac 27:31 -
Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.

This was clearly a "salvation" issue. But I don't find it in many doctrinal statements on salvation in eternity.

You must rightly divide the word "salvation". it doesn't always have just one meaning. A Christian need not be "saved" from the Lake of Fire. He already is. However, he might need to be saved from a shipwreck or chastisement. You must use context. Luke 13 is addressed to saved disciples. There is no way around that. They did not need to be "saved" (in eternity) again. This is clearly a reference to reward.


"I know you not" cannot be taken absolutely either. Of course God knows them. He is omniscient. He knows everything. This knowlege (or lack thereof) speaks of intimacy and fruit. (Adam knew eve and she concieved, etc.) Compare Scripture to Scripture.

lacy