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"Baptist"
- Thread starter Steve Allen
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Yea...non-denominationalThere are two kinds of Christians.....non-Bapists and correct ones
When they are choosing to keep on living on known sin that would involve things such as adultery, pornography, drunkeness, drug abusing, gossiping, basically the known deadly sins, not things that invove just preferences and convictions!
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I have no problem with anyone who prefers the Kjv for use, just do not see it being the only one can use!
LOL...They do that too. I am convinced that how you do one thing is how you do everything.
Do what also?
adultery, pornography, drunkeness, drug abusing, gossiping, basically the known deadly sins. You think that just because they "TELL YOU" they are born again that sinful activity just goes away? If so, are you interested in some swamp land in south jersey?
adultery, pornography, drunkeness, drug abusing, gossiping, basically the known deadly sins. You think that just because they "TELL YOU" they are born again that sinful activity just goes away? If so, are you interested in some swamp land in south jersey?
The biggest drug pusher in 3 counties in NJ (uses high school kids as dealers in the schools) is a long standing member of a Reformed Baptist church out here..... tells you he is a born again.
Can I please make what I consider an important observation in scripture (Matthew 9:10-11)
The Pharisees to the Disciples, " Why does your master eat with tax collectors & sinners?"
Jesus Response, Matthew 9:12 "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.
The Church, as Jesus seems to be defining it, is the gathering of accepted brokenness....it is NOT the gathering of the saved (Matthew 9:13) "And indeed I came not to call the upright, but sinners."
The Pharisees to the Disciples, " Why does your master eat with tax collectors & sinners?"
Jesus Response, Matthew 9:12 "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.
The Church, as Jesus seems to be defining it, is the gathering of accepted brokenness....it is NOT the gathering of the saved (Matthew 9:13) "And indeed I came not to call the upright, but sinners."
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I am just stating that per the scriptures, the unrepenent Christians needs to be addressed in order to be made more accountible now to God, church, and themselves!adultery, pornography, drunkeness, drug abusing, gossiping, basically the known deadly sins. You think that just because they "TELL YOU" they are born again that sinful activity just goes away? If so, are you interested in some swamp land in south jersey?
They were lost, but once saved and found, jesus was expecting them to be acting as one of His ought to be now!
Go back to the full quote...#169 before you answer me. From what I get out of scripture, I don't see the church as ever being a "Members Only" Club but somewhere along the lines it became a gathering of the saved instead of what Jesus makes it in his open table of fellowship. The fact is that Jesus' table is a gathering of the unsaved!
The church is a gathering of the unsaved?
Steve Allen
Member
@Earth Wind and Fire
I think the confusion here arises from the fact that for the most part modern services are fairly non-exclusive. Anyone can come and go as they please, and it's considered extremely rude to ask anyone to leave unless they are causing some disruption.
Traditionally, both in the early days and up until very recently pretty much anyone (even the heretics) could show up at first and hear the Word, but there would come a point in the proceedings where the preaching and teaching of the Word was over. Then all who were not "of the Faithful" would be asked to leave/escorted out, the doors would be closed, and the Eucharist (aka communion) would then be celebrated.
There is a part in the Divine Liturgy as it is currently constituted that reflects this, where after the homily and certain prayers for the Catechumen and others, the Deacon intones, "Let the catechumen depart! Depart! Let none of the catechumen remain! As many as are of the Faithful, again and again in peace let us pray to the Lord...."
Then a couple of litanies for the Faithful, and some hymns, are sung. Then the head Deacon makes a "final check" instruction to the doorkeepers*: "The doors! The doors!" (Meaning, "guard the doors and don't let anyone else in.") Then, once he's sure everything is in order, he intones, "In wisdom let us attend," and the Mystery continues with those remaining confessing their One Faith by the Creed.
(* "doorkeeper" was and technically still is (although it's become less formal) an actual Order of ministry, albeit a minor one.)
"Of the Faithful" was defined as those who had been Baptized and not excommunicated.
Here is a link with more information: Dismissal of the Catechumens: more on Part V of the series…
So there is a winnowing process as the service moves forward. All are invited to hear the Word preached, but when it comes to communion, it's exclusive not on "saved or unsaved" but on "baptized and keeping the Faith" or not, as judged by the whole Church including (especially) one's own conscience, particularly in the context of the particular relationship with your spiritual father/confessor/elder, who is responsible to the largest extent for your growth in Christ.
Note that these are objective measures, outwardly known (or at least potentially so -- for nothing is hid that won't be revealed, and a man's conscience knows regardless). Unlike "saved or unsaved" which won't ultimately be known until the final judgment.
The case you mentioned of the fellow living in adultery -- if it became known, he would have been excommunicated unless/until he repented, and even with repentance probably barred from the chalice for some period of time until he had shown by his life and works that his repentance was sincere. ("Bring forth works meet for repentance.") Likewise with the drug-pushers you mentioned.
This would all be under the direction of the bishop, ultimately, although the immediate ministry of this discipline and its attendant instructions and prohibitions would be carried out by the spiritual father/confessor and/or the head presbyter of the assembly (assuming that isn't the Bishop himself, of course).
And they were much more severe about these things in the early days than they are today! See Acts 5, for example.
I think the confusion here arises from the fact that for the most part modern services are fairly non-exclusive. Anyone can come and go as they please, and it's considered extremely rude to ask anyone to leave unless they are causing some disruption.
Traditionally, both in the early days and up until very recently pretty much anyone (even the heretics) could show up at first and hear the Word, but there would come a point in the proceedings where the preaching and teaching of the Word was over. Then all who were not "of the Faithful" would be asked to leave/escorted out, the doors would be closed, and the Eucharist (aka communion) would then be celebrated.
There is a part in the Divine Liturgy as it is currently constituted that reflects this, where after the homily and certain prayers for the Catechumen and others, the Deacon intones, "Let the catechumen depart! Depart! Let none of the catechumen remain! As many as are of the Faithful, again and again in peace let us pray to the Lord...."
Then a couple of litanies for the Faithful, and some hymns, are sung. Then the head Deacon makes a "final check" instruction to the doorkeepers*: "The doors! The doors!" (Meaning, "guard the doors and don't let anyone else in.") Then, once he's sure everything is in order, he intones, "In wisdom let us attend," and the Mystery continues with those remaining confessing their One Faith by the Creed.
(* "doorkeeper" was and technically still is (although it's become less formal) an actual Order of ministry, albeit a minor one.)
"Of the Faithful" was defined as those who had been Baptized and not excommunicated.
Here is a link with more information: Dismissal of the Catechumens: more on Part V of the series…
So there is a winnowing process as the service moves forward. All are invited to hear the Word preached, but when it comes to communion, it's exclusive not on "saved or unsaved" but on "baptized and keeping the Faith" or not, as judged by the whole Church including (especially) one's own conscience, particularly in the context of the particular relationship with your spiritual father/confessor/elder, who is responsible to the largest extent for your growth in Christ.
Note that these are objective measures, outwardly known (or at least potentially so -- for nothing is hid that won't be revealed, and a man's conscience knows regardless). Unlike "saved or unsaved" which won't ultimately be known until the final judgment.
The case you mentioned of the fellow living in adultery -- if it became known, he would have been excommunicated unless/until he repented, and even with repentance probably barred from the chalice for some period of time until he had shown by his life and works that his repentance was sincere. ("Bring forth works meet for repentance.") Likewise with the drug-pushers you mentioned.
This would all be under the direction of the bishop, ultimately, although the immediate ministry of this discipline and its attendant instructions and prohibitions would be carried out by the spiritual father/confessor and/or the head presbyter of the assembly (assuming that isn't the Bishop himself, of course).
And they were much more severe about these things in the early days than they are today! See Acts 5, for example.
What was Christ’s emphasis then... you see the scripture so you tell me.
You would probably enjoy the Primitive Baptists... my God, I personally do.@Earth Wind and Fire
I think the confusion here arises from the fact that for the most part modern services are fairly non-exclusive. Anyone can come and go as they please, and it's considered extremely rude to ask anyone to leave unless they are causing some disruption.
Traditionally, both in the early days and up until very recently pretty much anyone (even the heretics) could show up at first and hear the Word, but there would come a point in the proceedings where the preaching and teaching of the Word was over. Then all who were not "of the Faithful" would be asked to leave/escorted out, the doors would be closed, and the Eucharist (aka communion) would then be celebrated.
There is a part in the Divine Liturgy as it is currently constituted that reflects this, where after the homily and certain prayers for the Catechumen and others, the Deacon intones, "Let the catechumen depart! Depart! Let none of the catechumen remain! As many as are of the Faithful, again and again in peace let us pray to the Lord...."
Then a couple of litanies for the Faithful, and some hymns, are sung. Then the head Deacon makes a "final check" instruction to the doorkeepers*: "The doors! The doors!" (Meaning, "guard the doors and don't let anyone else in.") Then, once he's sure everything is in order, he intones, "In wisdom let us attend," and the Mystery continues with those remaining confessing their One Faith by the Creed.
(* "doorkeeper" was and technically still is (although it's become less formal) an actual Order of ministry, albeit a minor one.)
"Of the Faithful" was defined as those who had been Baptized and not excommunicated.
Here is a link with more information: Dismissal of the Catechumens: more on Part V of the series…
So there is a winnowing process as the service moves forward. All are invited to hear the Word preached, but when it comes to communion, it's exclusive not on "saved or unsaved" but on "baptized and keeping the Faith" or not, as judged by the whole Church including (especially) one's own conscience, particularly in the context of the particular relationship with your spiritual father/confessor/elder, who is responsible to the largest extent for your growth in Christ.
Note that these are objective measures, outwardly known (or at least potentially so -- for nothing is hid that won't be revealed, and a man's conscience knows regardless). Unlike "saved or unsaved" which won't ultimately be known until the final judgment.
The case you mentioned of the fellow living in adultery -- if it became known, he would have been excommunicated unless/until he repented, and even with repentance probably barred from the chalice for some period of time until he had shown by his life and works that his repentance was sincere. ("Bring forth works meet for repentance.") Likewise with the drug-pushers you mentioned.
This would all be under the direction of the bishop, ultimately, although the immediate ministry of this discipline and its attendant instructions and prohibitions would be carried out by the spiritual father/confessor and/or the head presbyter of the assembly (assuming that isn't the Bishop himself, of course).
And they were much more severe about these things in the early days than they are today! See Acts 5, for example.
Steve Allen
Member
I hold to exactly zero of the five points of Calvinism, so...no thanks.
But I do enjoy hearing the acapella music. (We Orthodox don't use instruments, either, and for largely the same reason.)
Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
Would you agree that the church still needs to exercise biblcal discipline when required by someones sinful behavior?
The assembly of the redeemed is what church is to be! evangelsim happens outside, while teaching and maturing happens inside!
No, I don't need....nor do any of us need a go between, to tell us what God is about. Jesus has taken away that broker; He is telling us that God is totally accessible so why do I need some human intervention to punish & correct behavior when I have God the Father, The Son Christ & the Holy Spirit to convict the individual? Certainly there is no church on the planet that could have ever have changed me.....It was God that accomplished that by his saving grace. And the Kingdom of God is in your midst (Luke 17:21).
That is why I indicated that God is available & accessible to anyone who asks....even sometimes to some who could care less & that is what I was stressing with this Baptist thing......Both John the Baptist & Christ are emphasizing that God is as available to you as water and God can raise up children from stones (Matthew 3:8)
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