Baptists are killing themselves!

[ituttut]

If the dominant issues that consume the hearts and minds of good people are whether or not "Merry Christmas" is said at the end of a business transaction or whether or not the 10 Commandments are posted publically we are truly in great need of a biblical reformation on a grand scale. Thsoe issues do not typify what the Lord defined as battle ground on which we are called to fight, nor is that being "salt and light" in the world.

Our main task is to be who we are in Christ regardless of the culture. Fulfill both the Great Commandments and the Great Commission. If we make those our priority, people will be changed and transformed forever. I don't think we can say the same things if our goal is to restore some false concept of bygone era.

The culture is not our focus, people are!

Blessings,

Are we in the Body of Christ to be preaching the "great commission" that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John did? They were preaching this same gospel in Acts 2 also as the "Kingdom was at hand". It is not at hand today. Is that our gospel today of by grace we saved through faith?

 

[ituttut]

I am a member of a good, bible believing church. What concerns me in this area is not that the churches are not teaching the gospel (mine is), but rather the lack of individual growth in the church. Sunday school, for example, is designed in our church to evangelize, and bring the visitor or new member into a closer relationship with God. What is missing is the group studies focusing on mature Christian growth. The material provided by the Southern Baptists present a superficial, life application of the material.

I’m not saying that there is not a place for this material, but I’ve always felt that as you study and read the Word, God will open up its application in your life. Our material comes from LifeWay, and it is not “bad”, but it doesn’t provide much in the way of study material. I am not claiming to be correct on this, as I know the importance of evangelizing. It just seems to me that churches are often too dependent on spoon feeding.

We have Christmas, and I believe it is for "kids". We have Sunday school, and I believe "Sunday school" is for "new born". That "kid" is then to learn how to walk and talk on its own with what His Word reveals to Him.

Once in the Body we are to "study to show ourselves approved", and work out our own salvation. Will we be in the "Body Church", or the "Kingdom Church"? We know we will be in the "kingdom of God".

 

[JonC]

I agree with much of what you said. Attending “Sunday school” focused only on the new Christian or on bringing others to Christ is sometimes difficult. I don’t experience the growth and understanding that I did when we studied the Bible book by book, discussing issues.

Our pastor also feels that Sunday school is primarily for teaching the “basics”. This is a vital role of the Church.

I miss studying as a group, but I can chalk that up to selfishness. If our current lessons bring others to Christ, or the new Christian to a more faithful walk, I’ll gladly be content. The more I think about it, it may be the style of the study material I don’t like. I know you can’t please everyone.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

What gets me are these churches that are affiliated with Baptist denominations, but yet don't want anyone to know that, as they are so afraid of "turning someone off".

If a church doesn't want to be identified with a group, then don't hide the affiliation--terminate it and become a genuine non-denominational, independent church. I have no beef with that.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!:thumbsup:

 

[ituttut]

I agree with much of what you said. Attending “Sunday school” focused only on the new Christian or on bringing others to Christ is sometimes difficult. I don’t experience the growth and understanding that I did when we studied the Bible book by book, discussing issues.

Our pastor also feels that Sunday school is primarily for teaching the “basics”. This is a vital role of the Church.

I miss studying as a group, but I can chalk that up to selfishness. If our current lessons bring others to Christ, or the new Christian to a more faithful walk, I’ll gladly be content. The more I think about it, it may be the style of the study material I don’t like. I know you can’t please everyone.

Amen, and you have understanding.

 

[guitarpreacher]

What gets me are these churches that are affiliated with Baptist denominations, but yet don't want anyone to know that, as they are so afraid of "turning someone off".

If a church doesn't want to be identified with a group, then don't hide the affiliation--terminate it and become a genuine non-denominational, independent church. I have no beef with that.

So let me get this straight - Even though we have adopted the Baptist Faith & Message as our doctrinal statement, and we support our local associtation, the state convention, and the cooperative program, and we have a close relationship with our association for encouragement, accountability and local missions, and if anyone walks up and asks what kind of church we are, the answer will always be "We are affiliated with the SBC", and we are preaching and teaching Baptist doctrine and making Baptist disciples - even though all that's true, because in an effort to do a better job at reaching lost people that other Baptist churches cannot/will not reach, we simply call ourselves CrossPointe Church, you would rather we not consider ourselves Baptist???

 

[Soulman]

S&N;
When you YELL IN ALL CAPS I think that my friend soulman has hit a nerve in you.

Perhaps the "politicizing" is not all on his side of the street. In fact, after readin the enitre article, I am of the opinion that Soulman has hit the trouble spot on.

When liberal limp wristed wanna be christians choose to distance themselves from a name which has historically been one that holds to biblical distinctives and holiness; then indeed the time has come that the lines of demarcation must be drawn. It is obvious which side of the line you have chosen in spite of your LOUD PROTESTING!!!!

I say: if you (whoever you are) do not like the name Baptist, then perhaps you have either never been saved or you are in a backslidden state and fear the displeasure of man more than the displeasure of God.

I will keep thr name of Baptist because most people in this country see it as being narrow minded, and I LIKE that since Jesus was narrow minded also.

Thats right Jim! Jesus was narrow minded. He compromised nothing and warned the world that the true path to God was NARROW and hard to find.

Think back through history. The sheer amount of people who stood and died for the truth! Baptists are identified as one of THE major groups that suffered and died because we wouldn't succumb to the Catholic machine of the dark ages.

In todays world we are unloving and intolerant. You tell a catholic that you are a baptist and they will tell you that you are a catholic basher. Also, others that compromise find baptists hard to take. The reason we are considered intolerant is because we seperate from false teachings. We are intolerant of apostate churches and will not fellowship with them. They tried to KILL us!

It is the same lie today with sugary icing on top. Now instead of forcing us to join them or die, we are being invited nicely. We still say "NO THANKS" and are considered intolerant. The only reason we are being invited today instead of forced is due to the fact that catholicisim does not weild the power it once had.

I am not saying other denominations didn't have their hands dirty but it was the catholics that weilded the biggest sword of persecution. They tried to assimilate us back then and they are trying today.

Baptist churches do not agree on everything because we are not a denomination with a headquarters that feeds us with a doctrinal feeding tube.

True baptists are independant churches which answer only to Christ. We are and will remain intolerant of error. We will remember that religion is NOT our friend. It is a hoax created by Satan himself. We must continue to seek the truth above all else. We may get it wrong from time to time and from church to church but if we seek it the bible promises we will find it and the truth will set us free.

Let the rest go! All they are doing by dropping the historical baptist name is going into the melting pot. It is just as well that they leave as the rest of us will not tolerate them.

I heard a funny but almost true quote:" Charasmatics have love without the truth. Baptists have the truth without love".

It's not that we don't love. We are just cautious. We would like to see all saved. But those that choose to reject Gods truth? SEE YA!:thumbs:

 

[guitarpreacher]

Thats right Jim! Jesus was narrow minded. He compromised nothing and warned the world that the true path to God was NARROW and hard to find.

Think back through history. The sheer amount of people who stood and died for the truth! Baptists are identified as one of THE major groups that suffered and died because we wouldn't succumb to the Catholic machine of the dark ages.

In todays world we are unloving and intolerant. You tell a catholic that you are a baptist and they will tell you that you are a catholic basher. Also, others that compromise find baptists hard to take. The reason we are considered intolerant is because we seperate from false teachings. We are intolerant of apostate churches and will not fellowship with them. They tried to KILL us!

It is the same lie today with sugary icing on top. Now instead of forcing us to join them or die, we are being invited nicely. We still say "NO THANKS" and are considered intolerant. The only reason we are being invited today instead of forced is due to the fact that catholicisim does not weild the power it once had.

I am not saying other denominations didn't have their hands dirty but it was the catholics that weilded the biggest sword of persecution. They tried to assimilate us back then and they are trying today.

Baptist churches do not agree on everything because we are not a denomination with a headquarters that feeds us with a doctrinal feeding tube.

True baptists are independant churches which answer only to Christ. We are and will remain intolerant of error. We will remember that religion is NOT our friend. It is a hoax created by Satan himself. We must continue to seek the truth above all else. We may get it wrong from time to time and from church to church but if we seek it the bible promises we will find it and the truth will set us free.

Let the rest go! All they are doing by dropping the historical baptist name is going into the melting pot. It is just as well that they leave as the rest of us will not tolerate them.

I heard a funny but almost true quote:" Charasmatics have love without the truth. Baptists have the truth without love".

It's not that we don't love. We are just cautious. We would like to see all saved. But those that choose to reject Gods truth? SEE YA!:thumbs:

And there you have exhibit A

 

[Soulman]

And there you have exhibit A

Thats how you answer when ya got nothing. I am not saying that all christian churches fall into this catagory. We are talking about churches that are dropping the name baptist because they are wussiefied and afraid of offending someone. They are afraid of being accused of standing for what they believe because of the negative feelings it may cause in christiandom. Most of Christiandom is apostate as it is just religion. We are talking about unfed, untaught, compromising, deceived baptists turning in their names while their forefathers turn in their graves.

 

[guitarpreacher]

Thats how you answer when ya got nothing.

Nope. Look, Soulman, I don't question your heart at all. I don't know you and wouldn't pretend to understand where you come from.

When I read what you write it screams a message, and that message is this: I don't give a rip about you. I just want to make sure that you know that I'm right and your wrong. And it's more important to me to make sure that you know I'm right and you're wrong than it is for me to invest any time in your life so that maybe you could be right too. And that's the impression a large part of the lost people around us have of Baptist.

Again, I'm not saying that's what's in your heart, in fact, I doubt that it is. But that's the message that comes out. Funny thing is, the people you talk about in your rant were not known as baptist when they were being persecuted for their beliefs.

So you keep on wearing the name baptist as a badge of honor, and I'll keep on leading to Christ and making disciples out of people who wouldn't talk to you on a dare.

 

[Soulman]

Nope. Look, Soulman, I don't question your heart at all. I don't know you and wouldn't pretend to understand where you come from.

When I read what you write it screams a message, and that message is this: I don't give a rip about you. I just want to make sure that you know that I'm right and your wrong. And it's more important to me to make sure that you know I'm right and you're wrong than it is for me to invest any time in your life so that maybe you could be right too. And that's the impression a large part of the lost people around us have of Baptist.

Again, I'm not saying that's what's in your heart, in fact, I doubt that it is. But that's the message that comes out. Funny thing is, the people you talk about in your rant were not known as baptist when they were being persecuted for their beliefs.

So you keep on wearing the name baptist as a badge of honor, and I'll keep on leading to Christ and making disciples out of people who wouldn't talk to you on a dare.

It's not a rant at all. You said you would aways say you were affiliated with the SBC. It doesn't matter if you are pastoring a church without the name baptist attached to it. I am talking about a specific group of people that are changing their names because they haven't read history and are afraid of hurting peoples feelings.

The people I talk about in "my rant" were ana-baptists, waldensens etc. (excuse me if I spelled it wrong) These people were pre- baptists. They were new testament believers before the name baptist came to being. Over 59 million were hunted down and slaughtered during the dark ages because they would not bow to catholicisim. If you would read the historic account you could see that the same thing is happening today, only nicely. Satan doesn't have to kill you physically when his real motive is to deceive you and keep you out of heaven.

Once again I am talking about a specific group of people that are changing their names because they haven't read history and are afraid of hurting peoples feelings.

I am not trying to be hurtful to you in any way. I am just appauled by so called christians so quickly falling into line rather than stand! If you haven't read it, read the article in the link at the beginning of this thread.

 

[JonC]

It has been my experience that you can not determine a church by the name of the denomination. Not using the name “Baptist” doesn’t offend me, but I think some churches downplay their denomination to gain more members. As long as they continue to teach sound doctrine, this may not be a bad thing.

Some (not all) of the Baptist churches severing ties with the SBC are doing so because they don’t teach sound doctrine. We have Baptist churches in this area who accept homosexuality, temporary salvation, abortion, etc.

This is not just in the Baptist denomination. There is a Church of God down the road from me that will not allow you to become a member if you are divorced, but will if you are homosexual.

On the brighter side, we have a Church of Christ that fellowship with other protestant churches, not claiming that you have to be a member of their denomination to gain salvation. While they differ in opinion, they do not teach unsound doctrine.

As the denomination lines blur, it becomes more difficult to determine the nature of a church by its name. I will probably always be a Southern Baptist. I will definitely always be a Christian, regardless of my denomination.

 

[Soulman]

see next post. This one I messed up.

 

[Soulman]

Here is a quote from the article at the beginning of this thread. Quote: “We’re trying to connect with our community,” said Spencer, who said the church’s core values remain much the same. “We want to remove as many obstacles as we can.”
Spencer’s sermons now feature PowerPoint presentations and clips from popular movies. A “worship team” that includes drummers and guitarists replaced the choir and organ music. Though 81 percent of the 400 members approved the name change, for one family, the change was “the straw that broke the camel’s back.” End quote.

Get the picture now?

 

[guitarpreacher]

Here is a quote from the article at the beginning of this thread. Quote: “We’re trying to connect with our community,” said Spencer, who said the church’s core values remain much the same. “We want to remove as many obstacles as we can.”
Spencer’s sermons now feature PowerPoint presentations and clips from popular movies. A “worship team” that includes drummers and guitarists replaced the choir and organ music. Though 81 percent of the 400 members approved the name change, for one family, the change was “the straw that broke the camel’s back.” End quote.

Get the picture now?

So you think the church referred to in the article changed their name because they are wimpie and don't know church history?

 

[Soulman]

So you think the church referred to in the article changed their name because they are wimpie and don't know church history?

I think the reality is that the church in question doesn't hold to the standards of most baptists.

Quote: Spencer’s sermons now feature PowerPoint presentations and clips from popular movies. A “worship team” that includes drummers and guitarists replaced the choir and organ music. End quote.

Where is the preaching and Godly music? On the outside it appears that this church is more interested in building it's numbers by entertaining people.

Also, the article refers to Baptists changing their name in order to distance themselves from the intolerable and unloving Baptists. I say that baptists for the most part (not all) are very tolerable. The word intolerable here refers in reality to uncompromising. Any Baptist that knowingly compromises scripture is not worthy of the name. Taking a stand for the truth will often be perceived as intolerable.

Remember the bible tells us to be seperate from apostasy. We will not join in with the melting pot that will become the one world religion described in the book of Revelation. It consists of charasmatics, pentacostals and inter-denominational churches. God wants us to be one as He and His Father are one. That is based upon truth.

When you throw in the ecumenical aspect of differing beliefs accompanied by "we all love Jesus so we can worship together", you have now entered what will become the one world religion.

Are they saved people? I don't doubt there are some that are. However most that fit into this catagory think they can lose their salvation which makes it a works based salvation. If you can't do anything to gain it, you can't do anything to lose it. They are normally characterized and unified by speaking in tounges, visions, being slain in the spirit, etc. Their unity is NOT based upon the truth of Gods Word.

You can usually spot this type of church by the type of worship music they have. Not to say that ALL music other than traditional hymns are wrong. There is some very Godly artists out there that edify God. The first sign of decline is the music standards. Godly music edifies God. Charasmatic, ecumenical worship music edifies man. It is lacks doctrine. Since in order to worship within the melting pot you have to drop the walls of division and build bridges of love, the music will consist of "Praise Him, Adore Him type music.

People of this persuasion think the old time hymns are fuddy duddy out dated out moded music. They have replaced traditional choirs and hymns with A “worship team” that includes drummers and guitarists.

Say what you will about traditional hymns but you have to admit that they are chock full of doctrine. They state what the bible portrays concerning the birth, burial, resurrection, blood, cross. salvation, etc.

I don't have a problem with different instruments being used in churches. I do take exception to drums. It is the content of the music and the testamony of the artist that is important and should be to everyone.

Music should be doctrinally correct if it is to be played in church since it is for God.

I used to be charasmatic and know first hand that the worship music was more for me than for God.

Those that are changing their names are doing so either because they don't fit into the traditional baptist distinctives anymore or never did.

I will state again that there are good Godly churches that are not baptist. But if you were and aren't anymore and you fall into the catagories listed above, you are on a slippery slope.

 

[tinytim]

Soulman, while I have disagreed with you in the past, I appreciate your previous post.

And while, I use powerpoint in my sermons, along with some praise and worship music, I agree that what you describe is a slippery slope.

I can't imagine never singing hymns. As much as I like contemporary, I love the hymns also. And even though I use powerpoint, and may use a video clip (I haven't used one from a popular movie, I have made my own sometimes) as an illustration, I can guarantee you that my sermons are doctrinally correct...

But I do worry about churches that want to automatically throw away everything of value for new flashy things...

Change for change sake is never good. We should be willing to change when it glorifies God, and edifies the church. If it doesn't meet those two qualifications, then leave things alone.

 

[gb93433]

Most Catholics know that Baptists have a history of bad-mouthing them. So why would any Catholic want to even attend a Baptist Church even if just out of curiosity? When I was in a non-denominational church we often had Catholics attend and eventually many came to Christ.

 

[Soulman]

Soulman, while I have disagreed with you in the past, I appreciate your previous post.

And while, I use powerpoint in my sermons, along with some praise and worship music, I agree that what you describe is a slippery slope.

I can't imagine never singing hymns. As much as I like contemporary, I love the hymns also. And even though I use powerpoint, and may use a video clip (I haven't used one from a popular movie, I have made my own sometimes) as an illustration, I can guarantee you that my sermons are doctrinally correct...

But I do worry about churches that want to automatically throw away everything of value for new flashy things...

Change for change sake is never good. We should be willing to change when it glorifies God, and edifies the church. If it doesn't meet those two qualifications, then leave things alone.

Thanks Tiny Tim,
I don't have so much of a problem using Power point as it is simply a tool of technology. As you imply, it is how it is used that matters.

 

[Soulman]

Most Catholics know that Baptists have a history of bad-mouthing them. So why would any Catholic want to even attend a Baptist Church even if just out of curiosity? When I was in a non-denominational church we often had Catholics attend and eventually many came to Christ.

And why shouldn't catholicisim leave a bad taste in our mouths? They murdered our forefathers. They are offended because they won't own up to what they did. If they had the power, they would do it again. Most modern catholics are ignorant of their own doctrines or they would run from their cult.

Having catholics attend services is always good. They can hear the truth of Gods word and get saved. We do not hate catholics! We hate catholicisim. Believe what it teaches and you will end up in hell. But when you are interdenominational and allow all belief systems to worship freely with you, you are wrong and are unbiblical. You are clearly allowing error to creep into the church because what God says is no longer important. Only what men think! You say many of them come to Christ in your non denominational church. How do you know? Because the profess the name of Christ? That is the whole reason for the hodge podge of different beliefs. Drop doctrinal divisions and just luv Jesus :1_grouphug: .

I will admit that we should step lightly when dealing with catholics in order to show them the love of Christ. But give them the truth that will set them free. Don't join them and worship with them as if they are christians. They are NOT! Church folks need to wake up and start standing again. If we are going to call ourselves baptists we need to stand like baptists. The world will hate us. But it hated Christ first!:jesus: