Perhaps you should go catch up on 'The New Calvinism' thread. I assumed that you had already.
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Perhaps you should go catch up on 'The New Calvinism' thread. I assumed that you had already.
robt.k.fall
Member
I'm going to stay away from that tar ball.
???? So if you hide your face, cover your eyes, it didn't happen?
I would've followed protocol:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2090196#post2090196
...but didn't think it'd do much good bein's it's your forum and all....
I would've followed protocol:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2090196#post2090196
...but didn't think it'd do much good bein's it's your forum and all....
robt.k.fall
Member
You're correct I did comment on a limited part of that thread. And seeing how the interaction was developing withdrew from further participation.
Do you remember those that taught there was a "Baptist Purgatory," Millennial Exclusion? I believe that to be a heretical belief. There are many "heretical beliefs or heresies that one can hold to without losing their salvation.
The basic beliefs of the New Calvinist are listed here by Peter Masters:
http://test.metropolitantabernacle....Calvinism-Merger-of-Calvinism-and-Worldliness
Also featured at the Metropolitan Tabernacle Baptist Church website:
metropolitantabernacle.org/New-Calvinism/The-New-Calvinist-Changing-the-Gospel-book
The New Calvinists: Changing the Gospel by E. S. Williams
metropolitantabernacle.org/New-Calvinism/The-New-Calvinist-Changing-the-Gospel-book
The New Calvinists: Changing the Gospel by E. S. Williams
I agree with you that teaching is heresy, and also have concerns on them relating to Charasmatic teachings and how they might try to force feed culture in their assemblies...
But are their core doctrines those against historical Christian teachings, such as how we are saved, who God is, what the Bible is, the second coming etc?
http://theaquilareport.com/new-calvinism-finds-southern-baptist-fans-some-see-threat-to-evangelism/
There is worldly music, and as you can see that is a problem for many.
The other concern noted here is that there is such a heavy emphasis on the sovereignty of God that it does away with the responsibility of man. Man becomes a robot in God's hand with no human ability to respond to God whatsoever.
Even after salvation he remains passive. It is "God that works in him," instead of allowing the Holy Spirit to guide him. It alleviates him of responsibility. He is simply a robot of a micromanaging God.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I posted much of the above in an earlier post, received with thunderous silence! I repeat, I fervently believe the Doctrines of Sovereign Election and Grace. I fervently believe that God is Sovereign over His Creation, but:
1. I am not going to blame God for every sin I have done in my life before He saved me or after He saved me.
2. I am not going to blame God for every bad thing that happens in this world.
Having said the above I believe that God has everything under control and nothing that happens in God's Creation will affect or change His ultimate purpose decreed before the foundation of the world.
I agree OR.
But on which side do you stand on?
1. The Calvinists and others of Spurgeon's era, when they sinned, they repented of that sin. They grieved. They made things right. They determined to live a holy and consecrated life. Holiness was one of the goals of the Christian life--Calvinist or not.
Peter Masters said: If one is going to accept Puritan doctrine then he ought to be ready to accept Puritan sanctification.
2. The New Calvinist that live in this era do not accept personal sanctification or cooperation with the Holy Spirit at all. As you have expressed they believe "God has everything under control and that nothing happens in God's creation will affect or change His ultimate purpose..."
That leads to antinomianism; to anarchy, to prayerlessness, to lack of evangelism, and to no sense or responsibility whatsoever.
If God has everything under control, then why should I lift a finger? There is no need for one even to pray.
Puritan doctrine doctrine did not negate human responsibility. One cooperated with the Holy Spirit in progressive sanctification that they would grow in grace.
It wasn't "God did it all," attitude.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
DHK,
A few favorite Scripture that show how and what I believe:
John 14:15. If ye love me, keep my commandments.
1John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1John 1:8-10
8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Ephesians 2:8-10
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Following is a rather lengthy passage from Peter but I believe it lays out the lifestyle required of a faithful believer.
2 Peter 1:4-11
4. Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6. And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7. And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11. For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
**************************************************************
The following is a little wordy brother but it expresses my views on sanctification I wrote some years ago:
SANCTIFICATION
The Holy Spirit continues to sanctify those whom He has regenerated and finally prepares them fully for the service and enjoyment of life in the presence of God {Dagg, page 285}. Sanctification has two aspects, positional and progressive. In each case the Holy Spirit is the instrument of sanctification. ‘Positional’ sanctification, being ‘set apart for God’, occurs with regeneration. ‘Progressive’ sanctification occurs as the believer grows in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ {2 Peter 3:18}. Both positional sanctification and progressive sanctification are indicated in the prayer of Jesus Christ for His Church:
John 17:15-17, KJV)
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Progressive sanctification can only occur when the believer is obedient. Just as the life of Abraham shows that obedience flows from faith so the New Testament teaches that obedience is a corollary or outgrowth of faith. We most frequently quote Ephesians 2:8,9 that deal with conversion. Unfortunately verse 10 that deals with obedience is often neglected:
Ephesians 2:10, KJV
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
The Apostle Paul defines the believers responsibility in sanctification as follows:
Romans 12:1-2, KJV
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, {which is} your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what {is} that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
The beloved Apostle John is very blunt concerning the believers responsibility:
1 John 2:4, KJV
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Finally we turn once again to the Apostle Paul, who most clearly taught justification by faith alone, as he writes to the Hebrews:
Hebrews 5:8,9, KJV
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Is our obedience perfect? Most definitely not! Paul again tells us in Hebrews:
Hebrews 2:16-18, KJV
16 For verily he took not on {him the nature of} angels; but he took on {him} the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto {his} brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things {pertaining} to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
**************************************************************
I do believe that God has everything under control and nothing that happens in God's Creation will affect or change His ultimate purpose decreed before the foundation of the world. However, that does not absolve us from the demands of Scripture as I believe I have shown above!
Sadly, I must admit that I fall far short of that which Scripture requires but I take consolation from the passages above, 1 John 1:9 and Hebrews 2:16-18; well actually all the Scripture! And then there is that wonderful passage you use and which I recall daily if not more often!
2Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
A few favorite Scripture that show how and what I believe:
John 14:15. If ye love me, keep my commandments.
1John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1John 1:8-10
8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Ephesians 2:8-10
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Following is a rather lengthy passage from Peter but I believe it lays out the lifestyle required of a faithful believer.
2 Peter 1:4-11
4. Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6. And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7. And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11. For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
**************************************************************
The following is a little wordy brother but it expresses my views on sanctification I wrote some years ago:
SANCTIFICATION
The Holy Spirit continues to sanctify those whom He has regenerated and finally prepares them fully for the service and enjoyment of life in the presence of God {Dagg, page 285}. Sanctification has two aspects, positional and progressive. In each case the Holy Spirit is the instrument of sanctification. ‘Positional’ sanctification, being ‘set apart for God’, occurs with regeneration. ‘Progressive’ sanctification occurs as the believer grows in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ {2 Peter 3:18}. Both positional sanctification and progressive sanctification are indicated in the prayer of Jesus Christ for His Church:
John 17:15-17, KJV)
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Progressive sanctification can only occur when the believer is obedient. Just as the life of Abraham shows that obedience flows from faith so the New Testament teaches that obedience is a corollary or outgrowth of faith. We most frequently quote Ephesians 2:8,9 that deal with conversion. Unfortunately verse 10 that deals with obedience is often neglected:
Ephesians 2:10, KJV
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
The Apostle Paul defines the believers responsibility in sanctification as follows:
Romans 12:1-2, KJV
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, {which is} your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what {is} that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
The beloved Apostle John is very blunt concerning the believers responsibility:
1 John 2:4, KJV
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Finally we turn once again to the Apostle Paul, who most clearly taught justification by faith alone, as he writes to the Hebrews:
Hebrews 5:8,9, KJV
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Is our obedience perfect? Most definitely not! Paul again tells us in Hebrews:
Hebrews 2:16-18, KJV
16 For verily he took not on {him the nature of} angels; but he took on {him} the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto {his} brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things {pertaining} to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
**************************************************************
I do believe that God has everything under control and nothing that happens in God's Creation will affect or change His ultimate purpose decreed before the foundation of the world. However, that does not absolve us from the demands of Scripture as I believe I have shown above!
Sadly, I must admit that I fall far short of that which Scripture requires but I take consolation from the passages above, 1 John 1:9 and Hebrews 2:16-18; well actually all the Scripture! And then there is that wonderful passage you use and which I recall daily if not more often!
2Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
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Good post.
I like these Scriptures that you posted:
Progressive sanctification can only occur when the believer is obedient. Just as the life of Abraham shows that obedience flows from faith so the New Testament teaches that obedience is a corollary or outgrowth of faith. We most frequently quote Ephesians 2:8,9 that deal with conversion. Unfortunately verse 10 that deals with obedience is often neglected:
Ephesians 2:10, KJV
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
The Apostle Paul defines the believers responsibility in sanctification as follows:
Romans 12:1-2, KJV
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, {which is} your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what {is} that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
The beloved Apostle John is very blunt concerning the believers responsibility:
1 John 2:4, KJV
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
One of the founding pastors of the movement now known as the New Calvinism is Mark Driscoll. He is nick-named as "the cussing pastor," and his speech or even preaching tells one why. Vulgarity has no place in the Christian life, especially in the life of the shepherd of the flock. What kind of example is that?
The lack of consecration, sanctification and responsibility to God is one thing that is lacking in this New Calvinist movement. It is just one of the things I was trying to point out.
Well, for one, they believe God regenerates a person to make them believe without any freewill choice exercised by the subject to call upon the name of the Lord.
You won't find them from those that defend the movement.
Read about it here:
http://www.newcalvinist.com/who-are-the-new-calvinists-part-1/
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
The laughable thing about what you're doing here is this: You, a non-Calvinist, are citing arguments by certain Calvinists against certain other Calvinists--and the arguments are about quite ancillary issues.
What you don't realize--because you have no first-hand sources--is that the disagreements are largely between British Reformed Baptists and others. The issues stem from worship style, etc. but you probably have no idea why the Brits don't like the Yanks...
It's simply because most Brits in the Reformed camp are quite committed to Covenant Theology, Americans not as much. Many American Baptists, particularly, are somewhere on the continuum between Covenant Theology and so-called "New Covenant Theology." So, in the mind of the Brits, those who are not deeply committed to Covenant Theology as well as a Calvinistic soteriology are not considered "real" Calvinists.
Having said that, many--though certainly not all--American Calvinists, especially Baptists, are more committed to being biblical with their Reformed theology as opposed to holding to Covenant Theology above the Bible. (Note: The last statement is a generalization; many Americans and many Brits hold to Covenant Theology above all else and many of each group don't).
As far as "my research" goes, I've been doing that for the last 14 years. My theology is very similar to the theology of Al Mohler, Daniel Montgomery, and Adam Greenway. I know what the Calvinist resurgence is about because I'm a member of the group. I have first-hand knowledge and I don't have to search the internet to find the silly sites you've found.
What is more, you--not being a Calvinist and having demonstrated no understanding of Calvinism--have no rubric under which to adjudicate the claims of the websites you've posted. You're simply taking other people's word without any evaluation or mental exercise.
It is you who have embarrassed yourself because you've introduced facts-not-in-evidence to the discussion started by the video. It matters not what the title of the video is; it matters what the content is. You've never approached discussing the content of the video--except to say that Calvinists were believing "another gospel." Instead you searched the internet for "New Calvinism" and cited websites which make unfounded and ridiculous claims without stopping to ask if those websites fairly represent those people they criticize (they don't). Instead of dealing with the content of the video, you've launched into some bizarre non-sequitur discussion fueled only by your own ignorance. And, on top of it all, when this is pointed out, you turn to the ad hominem argument--a clear sign that you've lost the argument at hand.
You've demonstrated yourself to be absolutely incapable of logical thought and you've demonstrated yourself to be incapable as a moderator (whether you moderate this section of the board or not).
Now, I'm sure you'll try some clever come-back that asks me to do my research... But, as I've mentioned, I am a Calvinist in the camp of Mohler, et al. And, I don't merely know what someone else says about Mohler; I know the man himself. I have several first-hand sources on the issues raised. You have none. You only have what a second or third-party says about Mohler, et al.
In the end, it is you who need to get understanding--which you've never proved willing or able to do.
The Archangel
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convicted1
Guest
^^^ouch!!!!
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