Be On Guard against false doctrine.....False Ideas on PSA considered

[37818]

Depending how and what is "in behalf of" it is logically deduced to in affect to be "in place of." Galatians 3:13 is an example. The word never means "instead of," but usage can have the connotation of "in place of."

 

[SavedByGrace]

Yes, I do see what you are saying. I believed, preached, taught, and defended your view for decades.

But that is NOT what the word means. You are changing words to make the verse say "instead of". Christ became a curse FOR (in our interest, gon our behalf) us. Not "instead of us".

Jon, how good is your Greek? what you are doing here, is imposing your THEOLOGY on what the Bible actually says! There is no doubt, that anyone who understand the Greek prepositions, will know that ὑπέρ does mean INSTEAD OF.

BDAG Greek Lexicon



Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon



Can you see the use, INSTEAD OF?

 

[Iconoclast]

A couple of issues here.

First, the word translated "propitiation" does not mean "appease". The passage is not saying that Christ "propitiayes" but IS the Propitiation for the sins of the whole World. The subject is Christ. He is OUR propitiation. In Him WE escape the wrath to come.

The word translated "on behalf of" does not mean "instead of". Nowhere in Scripture does it mean "instead of".

The "whole world does not have their sins propitiated...only the elect found anywhere in the world.Jesus is the only source of propitiation.

 

[SavedByGrace]

The word never means "instead of,"

nonsense!

 

[Iconoclast]

What is mind nothing is the fact that, when asked for a few simple passages stating your faith, all you can do is quote men who tickle your ears and...theories.... ONE EVEN ONE VERSE stating that Christ experienced God's wrath.

How are you different from Roman Catholics (except the things you believe Scripture "teaches")? You aren't.

I am still establishing the truth biblically. We see Gods wrath revealed against all unrighteousness..believers and unbelievers alike are guilty before God and are children of wrath even as others....Romans leads up to Jesus as our propitiation. He must have done something to turn away the wrath that we were under. Believers have no Condemnation In Christ Rom 8;1....there is a reason for that condidtion that believers enjoy. Wonder what that is?

 

[JonC]

The "whole world does not have their sins propitiated...only the elect found anywhere in the world.Jesus is the only source of propitiation.

The verse does not say anyone has their dins propitiated. Read the passage again. Christ IS THE Propitiation for the sins of the whole world (all mankind).

 

[JonC]

It is obvious that @Iconoclast cannot support his view via Scripture.

I do not care what those men he chooses to follow says. I do not care about what he believes is taught but not actually said in God's Word.

It is getting old reading through His references of men who tickle his ears and listening to his opinions of what he wishes Scripture said.

So I'm out (as far as @Iconoclast goes).

@Iconoclast , if you ever find a passage ("what is written") that states your belief then PM me and let me know. We'll discuss it then.

Until then, just keep in mind John Calvin did not die to save you. Please consider trusting in Hod and His Word rather than humanistic philosophy

 

[JonC]

Jon, how good is your Greek? what you are doing here, is imposing your THEOLOGY on what the Bible actually says! There is no doubt, that anyone who understand the Greek prepositions, will know that ὑπέρ does mean INSTEAD OF.

BDAG Greek Lexicon

View attachment 5970

Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon

View attachment 5971

Can you see the use, INSTEAD OF?

Pretty good. I studied Greek at the graduate level for several years. How about you?

 

[Iconoclast]

The verse does not say anyone has their dins propitiated. Read the passage again. Christ IS THE Propitiation for the sins of the whole world (all mankind).

WRONG Again;
"The sins of"....is added by the translators but is not in the text.
Your universal atonement is another falsehood.

2 and he -- he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world,

 

[Iconoclast]

It is obvious that @Iconoclast cannot support his view via Scripture.

I do not care what those men he chooses to follow says. I do not care about what he believes is taught but not actually said in God's Word.

It is getting old reading through His references of men who tickle his ears and listening to his opinions of what he wishes Scripture said.

So I'm out (as far as @Iconoclast goes).

@Iconoclast , if you ever find a passage ("what is written") that states your belief then PM me and let me know. We'll discuss it then.

Until then, just keep in mind John Calvin did not die to save you. Please consider trusting in Hod and His Word rather than humanistic philosophy

You were never "in"...you are trying to cover up but we will continue on as requested. Your false ideas have yet to be fully exposed.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Yes, I do see what you are saying. I believed, preached, taught, and defended your view for decades.

But that is NOT what the word means. You are changing words to make the verse say "instead of". Christ became a curse FOR (in our interest, gon our behalf) us. Not "instead of us".

Philemon 13, " Whom I would have retained with me, that in thy stead (ὑπέρ) he might have ministered unto me in the bonds of the gospel" (KJV)

"I wanted to keep him with me so that he could serve me in your place during my imprisonment for the gospel" (International Standard Version)

"I wanted to keep him so that he could serve me in your place during my imprisonment for the sake of the gospel" (NET Bible)

"I wanted to keep him with me, so that he might be of service to me in your place during my imprisonment for the gospel" (NRSV)

"Whom I woulde haue reteined with mee, that in thy steade he might haue ministred vnto me in the bondes of the Gospel" (Geneva Bible)

"Whom I woulde haue retayned with me, that in thy steade he myght haue ministred vnto me in the bondes of the Gospell" (Bishops Bible)

"whom I wolde fayne have retayned with me that in thy stede he myght have ministred vnto me in ye bondes of the gospell" (Tyndale)

"For I would have kept him with me to minister to me in your place during my imprisonment for the gospel" (Lasma The Peshitta)

"Whom I would have retained with me, that in thy stead he might have ministered to me in the bands of the gospel" (Latin Vulgate)

 

[SavedByGrace]

Pretty good. I studied Greek at the graduate level for several years. How about you?

then use your knowledge of Greek as it is, without your bias! I have shown time and again, that the Greek ὑπέρ, is used with the meaning INSTEAD OF, as I have also shown in #51. and you still deny this! It is your THEOLOGY that is stopping you from accepting FACTS!

 

[JonC]

then use your knowledge of Greek as it is, without your bias! I have shown time and again, that the Greek ὑπέρ, is used with the meaning INSTEAD OF, as I have also shown in #51. and you still deny this! It is your THEOLOGY that is stopping you from accepting FACTS!

I am. Paul uses words for "in stead of". The word you are mistranslating does not mean "in stead of". It literally means "for one's sake" or "on one's behalf".

Your philosophy is clouding your judgment.

If I testify on your behalf I am nit testifying instead of you. Learn English and then study Greek.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I am. Paul uses words for "in stead of". The word you are mistranslating does not mean "in stead of". It literally means "for one's sake" or "on one's behalf".

Your philosophy is clouding your judgment.

If I testify on your behalf I am nit testifying instead of you. Learn English and then study Greek.

so you deny that #51 is right? same Greek preposition used here, ὑπέρ

I have also quoted from leading Greek lexicons, and Dr A T Robertson, Greek scholar. Add to this the reformed commentary by JFB, "A curse for us - having become what we were, in our behalf [ huper (G5228) heemoon (G2257): Philem 13 sanctions also 'in our stead'"

And you think that you know better than these authorities!

 

[Iconoclast]

To the readers.... serious error has been posted....we will post some of the error...it takes time, so be patient. We have seen how most readers have caught the error, spread out over like 7 or 8 threads. It is more shocking when you see it posted together.
let's now list some of the bad ideas here;
pt1

Isaiah 52:14 does not say Jesus was beaten beyond recognition by God's wrath (YOU ADD THAT PART). Peter tells us who caused Christ's suffering (wicked men).


Perhaps it would be better to stick with Scripture rather than theories on this issue (it is that important).

Those of us who affirm a traditional view of Scripture (that it is God's Word, perfect, complete, and the test for all doctrine) purpose is men must be reborn in Christ, die to the flesh, be made alive in Christ (in Whom there is no condemnation). Therefore God is just and the justifier of sinners.

This attempts to suggest those who do not share John's view do not believe scripture

There are no passages that support your mythology. The sad part is you know this (you are not stupid), but will continue your debasement of Scripture to cling to your humanistic philosophy.

Have you ever stopped and considered that God's Word just might be enough? Have you ever asked yourself why God did not see fit to write in Scripture the theory upon which you have built your faith?

Here JOHNC suggests RM holds to mythology, debasing scripture, and that scripture is not enough. I do not always agree with RM, however this is slanderous

The idea Christ suffered God's wrath is extrabiblical. It is, in fact, anti-biblical.

it just means they woukd physically die. You are taking liberties with Scripture,

All of these threads and all ypu guys can offer is philosophy....no passages.

The idea of appeasing a god by sacrificing an animal is pagan, and it is at the core of your faith regarding the OT sacrifices.

But Scripture tells us this was God, in His forbearance, passing over their sins.

There are no passages teaching that Christ experienced God's wrath instead of us.

Scripture teaches God will not substitute the Just for the unjust, condemn the innocent, transfer sins, subject His righteous to wrath, and is not manipulated by men. This alone proves your theory incorrect.

opps; This looks like scripture to me...
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins,
the just for the unjust,
that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

 

[Iconoclast]

bad posts pt2;

At least the illustration would be accurate (Scripture tells us it was tge evil of the World that caused Christ to suffer and die, and this was God's will).

[QUOTEInfirmity is the bondage under which we were enslaved (the wages of sin).
][/QUOTE]
no..mt8

1. Words have meaning. The Just dying for the unjust simply does not mean the Just dying instead of the unjust.

lol

It means "for". The Just died in the flesh for the unjust. And "on behalf of" is not substitution (it means in one's interest or....as Scripture indicates....as a representative...like the "Last Adam").

What is missing from Scripture is the pagan idea that Christ suddered God's wrath instead of us. This is based on the pagan ANE sacrifice system and Roman Catholic doctrine reworked with a focus on wrath rather than merit.

No. Christ died for our sins. We agree on that part. As you noted, "for" means "on behalf of" (which does not mean "substitution" but "in one's intrest" or as one's "representative" (like Christ being the "Last Adam".

Now, if you want to redefine Penal Substitution Theory to exclude the idea Christ suffered God's wrath so that we wouldn't I have no problem with that.

Is there any presentation by type or statement that God pours wrath upon Himself?

Did in fact the eternal God in body become ungodly, rebellious, and actively engaged in leading others to sin?
If the answer is no, then wrath did not come from God upon the Son at the crucifixion.

The Father did not, the Spirit did not, and certainly humans did not kill the Christ.

so certainly, I place Scripture as right and the views of those that “Esteem Him Smitten of God and afflicted” as worthless.

For I agree with Peter, “23He was delivered up by God’s set plan and foreknowledge, and you, by the hands of the lawless, put Him to death by nailing Him to the cross. 24But God raised Him from the dead, releasing Him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for Him to be held in its clutches.

 

[37818]

The word never means "instead of,"

nonsense!

I checked more than one source. I am referring to the word meaning versus sense of meaning understood in some usages.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I checked more than one source. I am referring to the word meaning versus sense of meaning understood in some usages.

see #42 and 51

 

[SavedByGrace]

The word you are mistranslating does not mean "in stead of". It literally means "for one's sake" or "on one's behalf".

here is a good example. A is sentenced to prison. then B says to the judge, that he would to to prison "on his behalf". And the judge agrees. Does this not mean that B went to prison INSTEAD OF A? You are playing games with word uses!

 

[SavedByGrace]

from Thayers Greek lexicon

3. in the place of, instead of (which is more precisely expressed by ἀντί; hence, the two prepositions are interchanged by Irenaeus, adv. haer. 5, 1, τῷ ἰδίῳ αἵματι λυτρωσαμένου ἡμᾶς τοῦ κυρίου καί δόντος τήν ψυχήν ὑπέρ τῶν ἡμετέρων ψυχῶν καί τήν σάρκα τήν ἑαυτοῦ ἀντί τῶν ἡμετέρων σαρκῶν): ἵνα ὑπέρ σου μοι διακονῇ, Philemon 1:13; ὑπέρ τῶν νεκρῶν βαπτίζεσθαι (see βαπτίζω, at the end), 1 Corinthians 15:29; (add, Colossians 1:7 L text Tr text WH text); in expressions concerning the death of Christ: εἷς ὑπέρ πάντων ἀπέθανεν (for the inference is drawn ἄρα οἱ πάντες ἀπέθανον, i. e. all are reckoned as dead), 2 Corinthians 5:14(15),15; add, 21; Galatians 3:13. (On this debated sense of ὑπέρ, see Meyer and Van Hengel on Romans 5:6; Ellicott on Galatians and Philemon, the passages cited; Wieseler on Galatians 1:4; Trench, Synonyms, § lxxxii.; Winer's Grammar, 383 (358) note.) Since anything, whether of an active or passive character which is undertaken on behalf of a person or thing, is undertaken 'on account of' that person or thing, ὑπέρ is used