I do not do philosophy, or carnal speculation. God is the creator of all things, so are you sayingGen1:31 was not true?
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Before the Foundation of the World
- Thread starter AustinC
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37818
Well-Known Member
No. The Word aka the Son of God is none other than God the uncaused Cause. John 1:1-3. Colossians 1:16-17.
37818
Well-Known Member
He has always been a mediator as God the Creator. John 1:1-3.
37818
Well-Known Member
Look at @Brightfame52 comment.
Do you mean who is the creator of Lucifer and Adam? This would be YHWH. Did YHWH cause Lucifer and Adam to rebel against him? Did YHWH allow Lucifer and Adam to rebel against him? Does God allow Lucifer to save himself? Does God allow Adam to save himself?
Does God save humans by choosing to save humans? Does God save all humans or some humans? Does God save any rebellious former angels?
The erroneous idea that God caused sin is one propagated by those who cannot grasp ordination.
37818
Well-Known Member
He became mediator as Savior per Isaiah 53:12. 1 Timothy 2:5-6.
Isaiah 53:12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.
1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
What is your point? Are you saying Jesus was not a mediator until after the resurrection?
Mikey
Active Member
Ah, a farcical caricature.
timtofly
Well-Known Member
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. KJV
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. CJB
8 And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world; YLT
Is your translation slanted towards calvanism?
They would prefer the book written, but not the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world? Is that not putting the cart before there are wheels on the cart?
Do you not think that the physical body that was resurrected after the Cross with the scars is limited by time and creation? Did Jesus not step out into eternity before there was a Creation? Did the Lamb's book of life, a physical Creation itself exist before Creation?
Your translation declares a fact that since no names were written, none of the following had to happen before Creation: the Cross, the resurrection, nor the Lamb's book of life. That is the premise of names not existing, no?
I think the proof you are looking for is a verse that claims this: "God only wrote the names of certain elect down before the foundation of the world."
Revelation 13 is pointing out a time where names are removed from the Lamb's book of life. Not only do some need to change the thought pattern of this verse to prove predestination. This verse is proof no one can be saved after Revelation 13. There is no perseverance found here for a post trib salvation. Either you are not in the Lamb's book of life, or your head is chopped off. Only those not found in the Lamb's book of life persevere to the battle of Armageddon. There cannot be a third group, period.
Even if you used the sounding of the 7th Trumpet as the "rapture", it sounds before Revelation 13. It also sounds before the battle of Armageddon. How is the Second Coming in Revelation 19? Does the 7th Trumpet sound for all of these 42 months, where only those not found in the Lamb's book of life exist? That is a long time for a rapture Second Coming event?
Here is the scenario if these people after the 7th Trumpet were never named in the Lamb's book of life. The mark happens anyway. These people were destined to recieve it period. If one gets their head chopped off, that action writes their name into the book of life. They are later resurrected and judged and live forever. Should Jesus have said instead of attempting to live to the end, should not people have been told to get their head chopped off, so they can get their name placed in the Lamb's book of life? You cannot have it both ways.
Satan can kill only those who refuse to worship. No one gets killed for not taking the mark. Removing one's head is to stop the mark from appearing on one's head.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
So one could still take the mark, as you put it, not in the book of life, and still be killed for not worshipping. Except being killed for not worshipping and still having the mark so you can exist in the economy, you are still persevering with the mark, but eternally damned by God. So how does perseverance work if you have the mark but avoid worshipping Satan?
You do not get you head chopped off to avoid worshipping Satan. Satan could kill you various ways, and you could still have the mark.
The mark is not associated with worship in verse 8. The mark is not associated with being killed for not worshipping. The mark is associated with the economy.
If one claims these people were never named by God, then they will automatically worship Satan. They have no choice. If they have a choice Satan can kill them, but after the 7th Trumpet has already sounded. The mark is unnecessary for anything but just a credit card.
Now the claim made by many is that God so loved the whole world. Thus all have been named in the Lamb's book of life. Even those after the 7th Trumpet declares the Second Coming, the most post position possible. Still pre Revelation 13. At the time of Satan being allowed to make an image come to life, we have two choices facing those on earth. Recieve the mark, and be removed from the Lamb's book of life and thus one is ready to worship Satan. The other choice, remove one's head to avoid the mark. It still seems like God is giving the mark at the point one's name is removed. This mark is given in opposition to the 144k who are sealed by God with the mark of protection. Although they are the ones driven out of Jerusalem after the 7th Trumpet sounds:
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. This is the desolation mentioned in Daniel 9:27. The sounding of the 7th Trumpet is a week of days. This end of time is announced in chapter 10.
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
The end of time statement in chapter 10 makes the mark sound like an expiration date. You have expired out of the Lamb's book of life.
The Second Coming is finished at this point. The Atonement Covenant confirmed. The Lamb's book of life still had many names in it. Satan would get 42 months to harvest these last names, either by removing the name, receiving the mark. Or the removal of the head to avoid the mark and avoid removal of the name from the Lamb's book of life.
"I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
If you think about it, God in His mercy directs our paths. And God in His wrath directs the rest.
ESV, the translation closest to the original language.
Are you claiming that the saints names were not written in the Book of Life from before the foundation of the world, but instead Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world? Based upon other passages speaking of the foundation of the world I see Revelation 13 talking about saints being in the book of Life as this fits with Ephesians 1. Nothing to do with John Calvin. Everything to do with observation of scripture.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
God even Christ Is the first cause and creator of Adam and Satan, Col 1:16
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
So do you believe that ? Could Satan or Adam have sinned without being created ? Secondly did God create them for His purpose and capacitated them for His Purpose ?
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Austin
Yes by His Purpose. Now that said, He created them for the Eternal Redemptive in Christ. Salvation from sin was purposed in Christ Jesus before the world began, before Adam and Satan began 2 Tim 1:9
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Yes by His Purpose. Now that said, He created them for the Eternal Redemptive in Christ. Salvation from sin was purposed in Christ Jesus before the world began, before Adam and Satan began 2 Tim 1:9
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Friend, if your name wasnt written in the lambs book of life before the foundation, salvation is impossible for you, or anyone else as far as that is concerned. Lets just hope it is, then God will save you by His Grace !
Once again we have a perversion of our inspired text presented to the unwary. The actual text reads "...from (or since) the foundation of the world."
I reviewed a list of English translations, and found about 10 with the mis-translation, but more than 50 with either "from" or since.
So...you believe God caused Lucifer and Adam to sin. Got it.
If you want to be saved...who caused you to want to be saved? John 6:44 tells you that God dragged you to salvation so you would believe. This must be since Romans 3 tells us that no one seeks God, not even one.
The natural man is and always will be in rebellion toward God. Natural man will not surrender rulership. God must cause the man to be reborn (John 3) and a new creation (2 Corinthians 5).
Behold the false doctrine of Calvinism stated plainly.
Here is a list of falsehoods:
1) God did not choose any individual human before creation because every human chosen lived as "not a people" chosen by God, 1 Peter 2:9-10.
2) The text of Revelations 13:8 reads "from or since" the foundation of the world, so "before" is disinformation.
3) Salvation is genuinely offered to all humanity, and Christ's sacrifice provides the means of salvation to the whole of humanity. 1 John 2:2.
4) Do not just hope you will be saved, put your heart-felt faith and devotion in Christ alone for your salvation, commit to Him fully as your Savior and Lord.
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