Before the Foundation of the World

[AustinC]

I posted nothing to do with your interpretation of Pelegias' theology. The book has been sealed. No editing whatsoever.

Calvin did not have the answer either. His theology is more deceptive and heretical than Pelegias. I am not saying works and asceticism can save any one. It is a free will choice to reject salvation. Calvin claims, no one has a choice. That is still universal Atonement. It is universal that some would never be covered, and some would. Nothing could change that universal knowledge of God. Calvin starts out with universal depravity, and claims God changes the few without a choice. How is universal depravity, not universal? The only universal good was in Adam before Adam disobeyed. From that point on was universal depravity. Now names had to be removed, the only available option.

There is not a single Scripture that shows constant editing. There is this interpretation that editing is an ongoing phenomenon from the start. How do you edit a sealed book? Sure God could edit a sealed book. That sorta defeats the point of it being a sealed book. It was sealed, because God is not a respecter of persons when it comes to who is covered by the Atonement.

God is a respector of persons when it came to the lineage from Adam to Christ. God guided the process in a particular way to achieve His Atonement.

Being in the Lamb's book of life does not mean one is without sin. It means one is covered by the Atonement. Sin was not a universal creation waiting to be enacted. Sin was entered into the world upon the instant Adam disobeyed God. It was a punishment. Many may not see it as a punishment. It was not promised. What was promised would be that Adam would die. There is also the question, which comes first, sin or disobedience. Is being disobedient a sin if sin does no exist? Once a single law is broken, then it is a sin. Most view sin through sinful nature that men are depraved. Adam was not created depraved with a sin nature. Adam had one law. It seems plausible that there could be laws without sin and depravity. Disobedience is instant Death, not a life of being depraved in sin.

Well...you are correct that God does not edit.
God tells us that those predestined to adoption were chosen before the foundation of the world. This is the names in the Lambs book of life. The rest were never in the book (no editing). God ensures that everyone whom He chose will never be forsaken by Him.

Sin came via Adam and his breaking the covenant God made with him. Romans makes it clear that the effects of that sin fall universally upon all of Adam's descendants. Yet, God in his mercy and grace, chose to Redeem a remnant according to His will.
There is nothing in humanity that God respects. God respects only His Son. Only those who are made alive with Christ, who were crucified and raised with Christ are redeemed. They are in Christ and it is Christ Jesus that keeps them from condemnation.

tim, you have created a heresy with which no orthodox believer will agree.

 

[AustinC]

Then you accept universal Atonement that cannot not be changed by God. Salvation can never be a choice. God did not love the whole world. God only loved those God would force to be loved.

No, if one accepted universal atonement then one will have to agree that ALL humans are redeemed and ALL are written in the book of life. That would be your ultimate position.

Jesus teaches that his death was only for those whom the Father has given him and no one else. Read John 6, 10 and 17 where you will clearly see what Jesus tells us.

Your accusation of God and his "forcing" humans to believe is noted. Such hatred for the amazing grace of God always perplexes me.

 

[Yeshua1]

Well...you are correct that God does not edit.
God tells us that those predestined to adoption were chosen before the foundation of the world. This is the names in the Lambs book of life. The rest were never in the book (no editing). God ensures that everyone whom He chose will never be forsaken by Him.

Sin came via Adam and his breaking the covenant God made with him. Romans makes it clear that the effects of that sin fall universally upon all of Adam's descendants. Yet, God in his mercy and grace, chose to Redeem a remnant according to His will.
There is nothing in humanity that God respects. God respects only His Son. Only those who are made alive with Christ, who were crucified and raised with Christ are redeemed. They are in Christ and it is Christ Jesus that keeps them from condemnation.

tim, you have created a heresy with which no orthodox believer will agree.

There was a book written while in college by 2 professors who stated the the real good news of the Gospel was that all were saved by the Cross, and only those who take themselves out willingly get lost, so he seems to be parroting them!

 

[timtofly]

Well...you are correct that God does not edit.
God tells us that those predestined to adoption were chosen before the foundation of the world. This is the names in the Lambs book of life. The rest were never in the book (no editing). God ensures that everyone whom He chose will never be forsaken by Him.

Sin came via Adam and his breaking the covenant God made with him. Romans makes it clear that the effects of that sin fall universally upon all of Adam's descendants. Yet, God in his mercy and grace, chose to Redeem a remnant according to His will.
There is nothing in humanity that God respects. God respects only His Son. Only those who are made alive with Christ, who were crucified and raised with Christ are redeemed. They are in Christ and it is Christ Jesus that keeps them from condemnation.

tim, you have created a heresy with which no orthodox believer will agree.

Just going by John 3:16. Claiming that God loves the whole world and provided His Atonement for the whole world is not a heresy.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

There is no coercion written in this verse.

You still point out a heretical view that God only atoned for the sins of those named in the book of life. You gave not one Scripture to prove your heresy is not a heresy.

Is Jesus wrong in hinging the fact on those who believe? Jesus did not say:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that only those who believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Whoever: regardless of who.

 

[AustinC]

Just going by John 3:16. Claiming that God loves the whole world and provided His Atonement for the whole world is not a heresy.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

There is no coercion written in this verse.

You still point out a heretical view that God only atoned for the sins of those named in the book of life. You gave not one Scripture to prove your heresy is not a heresy.

Is Jesus wrong in hinging the fact on those who believe? Jesus did not say:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that only those who believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Whoever: regardless of who.

Well, perhaps you should read all of John 3 so you understand John is not presenting universalism.

John 3:1-21

Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world,that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

 

[timtofly]

No, if one accepted universal atonement then one will have to agree that ALL humans are redeemed and ALL are written in the book of life. That would be your ultimate position.

Jesus teaches that his death was only for those whom the Father has given him and no one else. Read John 6, 10 and 17 where you will clearly see what Jesus tells us.

Your accusation of God and his "forcing" humans to believe is noted. Such hatred for the amazing grace of God always perplexes me.

All humans were redeemed at the Cross. God is no respecter of persons. God did not choose some over others. Nor did God just write down those who would choose the Atonement.

I did not accuse God of forcing any one. That is a strange outcome of writing every one's name down. God in including all of hunanity means God is willing that all should come to repentance. God does not force all to repent.

 

[timtofly]

There was a book written while in college by 2 professors who stated the the real good news of the Gospel was that all were saved by the Cross, and only those who take themselves out willingly get lost, so he seems to be parroting them!

I never said people can take their name out.

 

[timtofly]

Well, perhaps you should read all of John 3 so you understand John is not presenting universalism.

John 3:1-21

Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world,that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

Placing all the names from the start is not universalism as declared that all will be saved.


The point is that God is willing that all be saved.

Your claim is that God is not willing that all be saved.

 

[AustinC]

All humans were redeemed at the Cross. God is no respecter of persons. God did not choose some over others. Nor did God just write down those who would choose the Atonement.

I did not accuse God of forcing any one. That is a strange outcome of writing every one's name down. God in including all of hunanity means God is willing that all should come to repentance. God does not force all to repent.

Your first sentence is false. Your third sentence is false. You are speaking heresy.

 

[AustinC]

Placing all the names from the start is not universalism as declared that all will be saved.


The point is that God is willing that all be saved.

Your claim is that God is not willing that all be saved.

Tim, you have drastically misunderstood God's word and asserted falsely. Your comments are heresy.

 

[timtofly]

Tim, you have drastically misunderstood God's word and asserted falsely. Your comments are heresy.

2 Peter 3:9

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This verse is heresy?

What is this Lord's promise, if not the Atonement of the Cross? God has been patient for 5991 years, waiting for Adam's seed to repent and accept the Atonement.

Yet you claim the Atonement is limited and only a few were granted access.

 

[AustinC]

2 Peter 3:9

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This verse is heresy?

What is this Lord's promise, if not the Atonement of the Cross? God has been patient for 5991 years, waiting for Adam's seed to repent and accept the Atonement.

Yet you claim the Atonement is limited and only a few were granted access.

Your interpretation of this verse completely ignores the context in which Peter is addressing false prophets and the end of life on earth. If you actually read the entire letter you know that Peter is addressing the elect of God and telling the elect that God is not willing that even one of the elect should perish before the destruction by fire comes upon the earth.
But, you will have none of this truth because your eyes are so myopic and near sighted that you cannot see the whole of God's word.
I dare you to read all of 2nd Peter in context. It will help dig you out of the terrible interpretation you presently hold.

2 Peter 1:1,10
Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.

2 Peter 2:1,4-7,9-10,14,17,22
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority. Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones, They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children! These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

2 Peter 3:1-13
This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Tim...read your Bible and stop holding heresy.

 

[timtofly]

Your interpretation of this verse completely ignores the context in which Peter is addressing false prophets and the end of life on earth. If you actually read the entire letter you know that Peter is addressing the elect of God and telling the elect that God is not willing that even one of the elect should perish before the destruction by fire comes upon the earth.
But, you will have none of this truth because your eyes are so myopic and near sighted that you cannot see the whole of God's word.
I dare you to read all of 2nd Peter in context. It will help dig you out of the terrible interpretation you presently hold.

2 Peter 1:1,10
Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.

2 Peter 2:1,4-7,9-10,14,17,22
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority. Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones, They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children! These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

2 Peter 3:1-13
This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Tim...read your Bible and stop holding heresy.

You are the one placing limits on the text. Not me.

 

[AustinC]

You are the one placing limits on the text. Not me.

This is patently false.
However, you certainly have added what is not taught by God. That should make you shudder.

 

[Guido]

I don't believe God predestinates certain people to be saved, because if God predestinates certain people to be saved, then He predestinates other people to be damned. Romans says He predestinates those whom He foreknew. So, His foreknowledge determines whom He predestinates. Ephesians says He predestinated us to be holy and without blame before Him in love. That doesn't seem to even happen until after we get to Heaven.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

As the OP is banned this thread is closed.