Before the Foundation of the World

[Iconoclast]

Do not over think it?

The whole concept of Calvinism is over thinking the Word of God. This theology misses the whole point of the Atonement.

what do you mean?
There are mAny verses on it.

 

[AustinC]

Yes the act was before the foundation of the world in God's attribute of being outside of creation and time. All of humanity were placed in the Lamb's book of life. Not just a predetermined set amount. The Lamb slain is the Atonement that placed all of humanity in the Lamb's book of life.

You have proposed this before and it is open Pelagianism, which has been declared a heresy.

In your view all humanity is holy and perfect until such a time as that human does such a grievous evil as to be blotted out of the book of life. Then, from that moment on, the person must work his way back into God's good grace and get his name re-written in the book. Of course any fall from grace will result in a re-blotting leaving man with an ever changing cycle of works based, merit based, salvation.

 

[Van]

The Lamb's book of life has been sealed since the foundation. Your point is that nothing can exist before existence. The Lamb's book of life did exist before Creation.
SNIP

Your assertions reflect the opposite of what scripture teaches.
1) The Lamb's book of life is never said to be sealed.
2) Names are said not to be entered since the foundation, and so presumably, other names were and are being entered since the foundation until the end of the age.
3) Scripture says the Lamb of God was known before creation, but exactly when His book came into existence is not revealed as far as I know.

 

[Van]

Since God knew all the names of every person ever to be born, writing them in a book that was outside of creation is not an issue. The Word becoming flesh as a baby human was not an issue.

Did God exist as three individuals seconds before Creation? No that would be impossible since there is no time outside of Creation.

Saying that God could be more than three persons would mean a change in reality in how we know God.

More false assertions not found in scripture.
1) God created humanity, and to claim humanity existed eternally in God's mind is a denial of scripture.
2) Since names apparently are entered since the foundation, the bible supports individual election for salvation since the foundation of the world.
3) God existing eternally as three persons before creation is taught by scripture.

 

[timtofly]

You have proposed this before and it is open Pelagianism, which has been declared a heresy.

In your view all humanity is holy and perfect until such a time as that human does such a grievous evil as to be blotted out of the book of life. Then, from that moment on, the person must work his way back into God's good grace and get his name re-written in the book. Of course any fall from grace will result in a re-blotting leaving man with an ever changing cycle of works based, merit based, salvation.

Being named as under the Atonement is the election of God.

Accepting that Atonement is still a free will choice. It is not a heresy. In the very end, God will reply, I never knew you! Is Scripture being heretical on that Point? It is only at the end of creation will there be a point that God never knew them. At the start of creation God knew everything. Scripture is not being contradictory. The outcome at the end is the only point these people would never have existed. So, Salvation is not universal, but based on a choice. Never knowing many is not universal, but still based on a choice. God chose to save all. Many still chose not be saved. Spending hundreds and thousands of years in sheol will not change that choice.

The question has been when do some get to make that choice. God is still there with them in sheol. That is what David already proclaimed a thousand years before Christ, and even Job indicates that fact, more than a thousand years before David. Not that many cannot make that choice. All will or have already made that choice. The GWT is when the choice is made official. Only after current creation, will God never have known them.

I think the Lake of Fire will continue in the NHNE. I do not believe annihilation is implied. God will know them and they will know God in a new way. How that works out we are not told.

 

[timtofly]

Your assertions reflect the opposite of what scripture teaches.
1) The Lamb's book of life is never said to be sealed.
2) Names are said not to be entered since the foundation, and so presumably, other names were and are being entered since the foundation until the end of the age.
3) Scripture says the Lamb of God was known before creation, but exactly when His book came into existence is not revealed as far as I know.

1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Only the Lamb can unseal the Lamb's book of life. Only the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world to create the Lamb's book of life. It is named the Lamb's book of life because it only involves the Atonement Lamb. Notice in the 6th Seal, John does not use the name of Jesus Christ. He does not use Messiah. He claims the Lamb has now come to earth as part of opening this book and bringing all judgment with Him during the final harvest of the Trumpets and Thunders.

This is the end of Adam's sinful life on earth. That is why the book is now being opened.

 

[timtofly]

More false assertions not found in scripture.
1) God created humanity, and to claim humanity existed eternally in God's mind is a denial of scripture.
2) Since names apparently are entered since the foundation, the bible supports individual election for salvation since the foundation of the world.
3) God existing eternally as three persons before creation is taught by scripture.

I said God is not limited to 3 persons. I never said they did not exist. I said God created them into this reality. We are limited as created beings to know all about God outside of creation. All we know is what is revealed in current creation. We can know things about eternity that is outside of creation. We do know there is an eternity outside of creation.

Many people interpret eternity according to their own understanding, not how Scripture reveals it. Many assume the NHNE is eternity. I think that is a wrong assumption. NHNE is a totally different creation, but still a creation.

 

[Van]

SNIP
Only the Lamb can unseal the Lamb's book of life. Only the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world to create the Lamb's book of life. It is named the Lamb's book of life because it only involves the Atonement Lamb. Notice in the 6th Seal, John does not use the name of Jesus Christ. He does not use Messiah. He claims the Lamb has now come to earth as part of opening this book and bringing all judgment with Him during the final harvest of the Trumpets and Thunders.

This is the end of Adam's sinful life on earth. That is why the book is now being opened.

Gee, I missed where the reference said the book was the Lamb's book of life.
Gee, I missed where the reference said when the book was created or sealed.
Once again, we have speculation being claimed to be supported from scripture.

 

[AustinC]

Being named as under the Atonement is the election of God.

Accepting that Atonement is still a free will choice. It is not a heresy. In the very end, God will reply, I never knew you! Is Scripture being heretical on that Point? It is only at the end of creation will there be a point that God never knew them. At the start of creation God knew everything. Scripture is not being contradictory. The outcome at the end is the only point these people would never have existed. So, Salvation is not universal, but based on a choice. Never knowing many is not universal, but still based on a choice. God chose to save all. Many still chose not be saved. Spending hundreds and thousands of years in sheol will not change that choice.

The question has been when do some get to make that choice. God is still there with them in sheol. That is what David already proclaimed a thousand years before Christ, and even Job indicates that fact, more than a thousand years before David. Not that many cannot make that choice. All will or have already made that choice. The GWT is when the choice is made official. Only after current creation, will God never have known them.

I think the Lake of Fire will continue in the NHNE. I do not believe annihilation is implied. God will know them and they will know God in a new way. How that works out we are not told.

You have bought in to the "free will" philosophy, which skews your entire grasp of election and the atonement. This leads you to the heresy of Pelagian, which Augustine rightly debunked.

 

[Van]

I said God is not limited to 3 persons. I never said they did not exist. I said God created them into this reality. We are limited as created beings to know all about God outside of creation. All we know is what is revealed in current creation. We can know things about eternity that is outside of creation. We do know there is an eternity outside of creation.

Many people interpret eternity according to their own understanding, not how Scripture reveals it. Many assume the NHNE is eternity. I think that is a wrong assumption. NHNE is a totally different creation, but still a creation.

Once again, your views represent your speculation, but lack actual support from scripture.

 

[AustinC]

I said God is not limited to 3 persons. I never said they did not exist. I said God created them into this reality.

Wait! What?

You think the being revealed as God may be more than 3 person's as revealed in scripture? You also think the being revealed as God "created" the three person's of the Trinity? Do you also believe in a multiverse where God is different in each different iteration of the universe?

You have jumped in to the deep end of heresy.

 

[timtofly]

You have proposed this before and it is open Pelagianism, which has been declared a heresy.

In your view all humanity is holy and perfect until such a time as that human does such a grievous evil as to be blotted out of the book of life. Then, from that moment on, the person must work his way back into God's good grace and get his name re-written in the book. Of course any fall from grace will result in a re-blotting leaving man with an ever changing cycle of works based, merit based, salvation.

I posted nothing to do with your interpretation of Pelegias' theology. The book has been sealed. No editing whatsoever.

Calvin did not have the answer either. His theology is more deceptive and heretical than Pelegias. I am not saying works and asceticism can save any one. It is a free will choice to reject salvation. Calvin claims, no one has a choice. That is still universal Atonement. It is universal that some would never be covered, and some would. Nothing could change that universal knowledge of God. Calvin starts out with universal depravity, and claims God changes the few without a choice. How is universal depravity, not universal? The only universal good was in Adam before Adam disobeyed. From that point on was universal depravity. Now names had to be removed, the only available option.

There is not a single Scripture that shows constant editing. There is this interpretation that editing is an ongoing phenomenon from the start. How do you edit a sealed book? Sure God could edit a sealed book. That sorta defeats the point of it being a sealed book. It was sealed, because God is not a respecter of persons when it comes to who is covered by the Atonement.

God is a respector of persons when it came to the lineage from Adam to Christ. God guided the process in a particular way to achieve His Atonement.

Being in the Lamb's book of life does not mean one is without sin. It means one is covered by the Atonement. Sin was not a universal creation waiting to be enacted. Sin was entered into the world upon the instant Adam disobeyed God. It was a punishment. Many may not see it as a punishment. It was not promised. What was promised would be that Adam would die. There is also the question, which comes first, sin or disobedience. Is being disobedient a sin if sin does no exist? Once a single law is broken, then it is a sin. Most view sin through sinful nature that men are depraved. Adam was not created depraved with a sin nature. Adam had one law. It seems plausible that there could be laws without sin and depravity. Disobedience is instant Death, not a life of being depraved in sin.

 

[timtofly]

Once again, your views represent your speculation, but lack actual support from scripture.

As do most of yours. Interpretation is a kind way of saying assertion. You are right in your own eyes.

 

[timtofly]

Gee, I missed where the reference said the book was the Lamb's book of life.
Gee, I missed where the reference said when the book was created or sealed.
Once again, we have speculation being claimed to be supported from scripture.

You do know how to compare Scripture with Scripture. What other book would the Lamb be opening? Can you find another named book that only the Lamb can open?

 

[Van]

As do most of yours. Interpretation is a kind way of saying assertion. You are right in your own eyes.

Yet another unsubstantiated claim that I speculate just like Mr. Timtofly. Even if I did, (and do not think so) two wrongs do not make a right.

 

[timtofly]

You have bought in to the "free will" philosophy, which skews your entire grasp of election and the atonement. This leads you to the heresy of Pelagian, which Augustine rightly debunked.

Then you accept universal Atonement that cannot not be changed by God. Salvation can never be a choice. God did not love the whole world. God only loved those God would force to be loved.

 

[timtofly]

Yet another unsubstantiated claim that I speculate just like Mr. Timtofly. Even if I did, (and do not think so) two wrongs do not make a right.

I agree that being right in your own eyes does not make things right. That is your assertion. You did not bring any proof in your post from Scripture. You asserted your opinion against what you alledged to be my opinion.

 

[Van]

You do know how to compare Scripture with Scripture. What other book would the Lamb be opening? Can you find another named book that only the Lamb can open?

On and on, speculation to support speculation.

 

[Van]

I agree that being right in your own eyes does not make things right. That is your assertion. You did not bring any proof in your post from Scripture. You asserted your opinion against what you alledged to be my opinion.

Yet another, you are as bad as me post. Twaddle

 

[Yeshua1]

You have proposed this before and it is open Pelagianism, which has been declared a heresy.

In your view all humanity is holy and perfect until such a time as that human does such a grievous evil as to be blotted out of the book of life. Then, from that moment on, the person must work his way back into God's good grace and get his name re-written in the book. Of course any fall from grace will result in a re-blotting leaving man with an ever changing cycle of works based, merit based, salvation.

This is also the view of some Lutherans and some Anglicans, as they see the grace of God extended towards them in the rite and effective until they disavow Jesus!