Begotten or Made and Mary's role in your Salvation

[atpollard]

Mary gave a human nature to the Logos. That you would reduce that to a normal and inconsequence occurrence leads me to believe you do not understand the Incarnation and Who the Person of Christ is.

The gospels give credit for the incarnation to God, not Mary ... specifically the Holy Spirit.

 

[atpollard]

The virgin has illustrious models to follow: the five wise virgins of Gospel of Matthew, Mary, and the famous Thecla, heroine of the Apocryphal Acts of Paul. Let’s restate the obvious, if the Blessed Mary wasn’t immaculate then Christ was born by woman in a state other than a New Eve and the result would be Christ being born with the stain of Adam’s sin, a scriptural absurdity. If the Blessed Ever Virgin Mary wasn't immaculate then Christ was suckled by the unclean sinner – God forbid. If the Blessed Virgin Mary was anything less than a new Eve (free from the stain of sin) Christ’s human nature would inherit original sin. The flesh of Christ was given to Him by Mary, it is the mother's flesh any infant is born with; as such Christ would be born of carnal sin we arrive at another absurdity.

"Thy cheeks are beautiful as the turtledove's, thy neck as jewels."
​

JoeT​

I would think that someone that made such harsh criticism of my unattributed quote from a lexicon, would be more careful about ... what did you call it, oh yes, ... PLAGIARIZING the work of Susanna Elm.

 

[utilyan]

The gospels give credit for the incarnation to God, not Mary ... specifically the Holy Spirit.

Luke 1

31“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.

MARY conceived Jesus Christ. Does not say GOD will conceive. Mary is the MEANS, God has full credit.

The PHYSICAL Mechanics has no bearing in diminishing Christs divinity nor God's supremacy.

This is reconfirmed with Elizabeth:

36“And behold, even your relative Elizabeth has also conceived a son in her old age; and she who was called barren is now in her sixth month.

Does not say and behold a fetus was transplanted into Elizabeth too.

If Mary did not provide egg, she is not the mother, PERIOD.

 

[JoeT]

I couldn't care less how God chose to reveal himself. I only care that God chose to reveal himself. He did so by inspiring his Prophets and Apostles to write what he wanted them to write. Everything else is insignificant and merely your distraction in an attempt to lessen the Supremacy of God.

Many believe God chose Aristotelian philosophy because it came closest to His form of reasoning, it a form that attempts to remove relativism, rationalism and subjectivism. God is all powerful, present everywhere in every time, and all knowledgeable; omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. God is the very essence of Eternity. Recall that eternity has neither beginning nor ending; time then is a linear subset of contained within eternity, from the beginning to end of time. All knowledge is contained within Eternity as well a Divine Singularity.

The son of a human person is the expressed image of his father; the child is ‘begotten’ of the father, not made. Jesus Christ is Son of God; One Divine Person who is begotten in Eternity then in the flesh is the expressed image of God. [Cf. Hebrews 1:3] Contemplating one’s intellect begets wisdom. God’s contemplation is expression as reality. Consequently contemplating is own knowledge is expressed by God as His Wisdom. As God is all knowledge, then His expressed image of all His knowledge is His Wisdom, not made, but begotten. His Wisdom rather exists in eternally with an Eternal Knowledge, much the same way when man uses his knowledge producing wisdom. [Cf. John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-20]

Christ did take on the form of humanity through Mary as Jesus in the mysteries of the Incarnation. And, Christ is the expressed image of God in being the Wisdom of God. We see it in the Greek, “Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.”(At the beginning of time the Logos already was; and God had the Logos abiding with him, and the Word was God.) [John 1:1], in the same way a man’s wisdom abides in himself. And continues John in the Greek: “καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο,” (And the Logos became flesh) [John 1:14]. John says that the ‘Logos’ always existed and was God and furthermore the ‘Logos’ became man. Truth exists, the Incarnation happened.

Powerful Eternity (God) is the Wisdom of God, ever present, all powerful. Wisdom exists with God in all eternity. Christ is not ‘made or created’ by God but rather the Same Substance of God, all Eternity. Solomon described Wisdom as follows:

For in her [Wisdom] is the spirit of understanding: holy, one, manifold, subtile, eloquent, active, undefiled, sure, sweet, loving that which is good, quick, which nothing hindereth, beneficent, Gentle, kind, steadfast, assured, secure, having all power, overseeing all things, and containing all spirits, intelligible, pure, subtile. For wisdom is more active than all active things: and reacheth everywhere by reason of her purity. For she is a vapour of the power of God, and a certain pure emanation of the glory of the almighty God: and therefore no defiled thing cometh into her.

For she [Wisdom]is the brightness of eternal light, and the unspotted mirror of God’s majesty, and the image of his goodness. And being but one, she can do all things: and remaining in herself the same, she reneweth all things, and through nations conveyeth herself into holy souls, she maketh the friends of God and prophets. For God loveth none but him that dwelleth with wisdom. For she is more beautiful than the sun, and above all the order of the stars: being compared with the light, she is found before it. For after this cometh night, but no evil can overcome wisdom. [Wisdom 7:22 sqq.]​

In Proverbs we find a description of the coming Anointed One who ‘became’ man. Wisdom herself tells us who the man is in Proverbs 8, through whom all things were made:

The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways, before he made any thing from the beginning. I was set up from eternity, and of old before the earth was made. The depths were not as yet, and I was already conceived, neither had the fountains of waters as yet sprung out: The mountains with their huge bulk had not as yet been established: before the hills I was brought forth:

He had not yet made the earth, nor the rivers, nor the poles of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was present: when with a certain law and compass he enclosed the depths: When he established the sky above, and poised the fountains of waters: When he compassed the sea with its bounds, and set a law to the waters that they should not pass their limits: when be balanced the foundations of the earth; I was with him forming all things: and was delighted every day, playing before him at all times [Proverbs 8:22 sqq.]​

The Wisdom of God comes forth from God in the likeness of the intellect that generates Wisdom. It is by God that all things through the expressed image of Himself, Jesus Christ. "The figure of His substance" is the expressed image of God the Father, i.e. His Son.

In these days hath spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the world. Who being the brightness of his glory, and the figure of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, making purgation of sins, sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high. [Hebrews 1:2-3]​

The reflective act of understanding the existence of His eternity awakens the concept of understanding Eternity in the form of wisdom. Thus the likeness of Eternity is the expression begotten as Wisdom. "And the 'Logos' [the mental concept of Word, i.e. Wisdom - not the audible or written word] was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." [John 1:14].

The Logos takes flesh, the begotten Son of God. One Divine Person with Divine nature and a human nature uniquely and inseparably united. From the Father and the Son comes the Holy Spirit. Three Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit yet of One Substance, Eternity.



JoeT

 

[Particular]

Many believe God chose Aristotelian philosophy because it came closest to His form of reasoning, it a form that attempts to remove relativism, rationalism and subjectivism. God is all powerful, present everywhere in every time, and all knowledgeable; omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. God is the very essence of Eternity. Recall that eternity has neither beginning nor ending; time then is a linear subset of contained within eternity, from the beginning to end of time. All knowledge is contained within Eternity as well a Divine Singularity.

The son of a human person is the expressed image of his father; the child is ‘begotten’ of the father, not made. Jesus Christ is Son of God; One Divine Person who is begotten in Eternity then in the flesh is the expressed image of God. [Cf. Hebrews 1:3] Contemplating one’s intellect begets wisdom. God’s contemplation is expression as reality. Consequently contemplating is own knowledge is expressed by God as His Wisdom. As God is all knowledge, then His expressed image of all His knowledge is His Wisdom, not made, but begotten. His Wisdom rather exists in eternally with an Eternal Knowledge, much the same way when man uses his knowledge producing wisdom. [Cf. John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-20]

Christ did take on the form of humanity through Mary as Jesus in the mysteries of the Incarnation. And, Christ is the expressed image of God in being the Wisdom of God. We see it in the Greek, “Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.”(At the beginning of time the Logos already was; and God had the Logos abiding with him, and the Word was God.) [John 1:1], in the same way a man’s wisdom abides in himself. And continues John in the Greek: “καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο,” (And the Logos became flesh) [John 1:14]. John says that the ‘Logos’ always existed and was God and furthermore the ‘Logos’ became man. Truth exists, the Incarnation happened.

Powerful Eternity (God) is the Wisdom of God, ever present, all powerful. Wisdom exists with God in all eternity. Christ is not ‘made or created’ by God but rather the Same Substance of God, all Eternity. Solomon described Wisdom as follows:

For in her [Wisdom] is the spirit of understanding: holy, one, manifold, subtile, eloquent, active, undefiled, sure, sweet, loving that which is good, quick, which nothing hindereth, beneficent, Gentle, kind, steadfast, assured, secure, having all power, overseeing all things, and containing all spirits, intelligible, pure, subtile. For wisdom is more active than all active things: and reacheth everywhere by reason of her purity. For she is a vapour of the power of God, and a certain pure emanation of the glory of the almighty God: and therefore no defiled thing cometh into her.

For she [Wisdom]is the brightness of eternal light, and the unspotted mirror of God’s majesty, and the image of his goodness. And being but one, she can do all things: and remaining in herself the same, she reneweth all things, and through nations conveyeth herself into holy souls, she maketh the friends of God and prophets. For God loveth none but him that dwelleth with wisdom. For she is more beautiful than the sun, and above all the order of the stars: being compared with the light, she is found before it. For after this cometh night, but no evil can overcome wisdom. [Wisdom 7:22 sqq.]​

In Proverbs we find a description of the coming Anointed One who ‘became’ man. Wisdom herself tells us who the man is in Proverbs 8, through whom all things were made:

The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways, before he made any thing from the beginning. I was set up from eternity, and of old before the earth was made. The depths were not as yet, and I was already conceived, neither had the fountains of waters as yet sprung out: The mountains with their huge bulk had not as yet been established: before the hills I was brought forth:

He had not yet made the earth, nor the rivers, nor the poles of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was present: when with a certain law and compass he enclosed the depths: When he established the sky above, and poised the fountains of waters: When he compassed the sea with its bounds, and set a law to the waters that they should not pass their limits: when be balanced the foundations of the earth; I was with him forming all things: and was delighted every day, playing before him at all times [Proverbs 8:22 sqq.]​

The Wisdom of God comes forth from God in the likeness of the intellect that generates Wisdom. It is by God that all things through the expressed image of Himself, Jesus Christ. "The figure of His substance" is the expressed image of God the Father, i.e. His Son.

In these days hath spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the world. Who being the brightness of his glory, and the figure of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, making purgation of sins, sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high. [Hebrews 1:2-3]​

The reflective act of understanding the existence of His eternity awakens the concept of understanding Eternity in the form of wisdom. Thus the likeness of Eternity is the expression begotten as Wisdom. "And the 'Logos' [the mental concept of Word, i.e. Wisdom - not the audible or written word] was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." [John 1:14].

The Logos takes flesh, the begotten Son of God. One Divine Person with Divine nature and a human nature uniquely and inseparably united. From the Father and the Son comes the Holy Spirit. Three Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit yet of One Substance, Eternity.



JoeT

You mean, many, who couldn't care less about God, spend their life speculating on foolish things while never understanding the gospel.
It's so disappointing to watch people stumble over obstacles and never see Jesus.

 

[Walpole]

The gospels give credit for the incarnation to God, not Mary ... specifically the Holy Spirit.

The incarnation, by definition, requires a mother.

 

[Walpole]

You mean, many, who couldn't care less about God, spend their life speculating on foolish things while never understanding the gospel.
It's so disappointing to watch people stumble over obstacles and never see Jesus.

We are watching it in real-time right here...

 

[Particular]

We are watching it in real-time right here...

Indeed, we are...

 

[JoeT]

You mean, many, who couldn't care less about God, spend their life speculating on foolish things while never understanding the gospel.
It's so disappointing to watch people stumble over obstacles and never see Jesus.

It is quit customary for two young people to date, the object is to get to know each other before marriage. It may be that the two may not get along, it may be that one is not what he or she seems to be. In either case the courting is to 'know' who it is you are going to love and spend the rest of your life with.

You find this courting for fact finding foolish. Why do you need to know Jesus Christ, who He is, or how He came to be. Just foolishness. Then one day the two wake up and find themselves inexplicably joined to a demon. You find yourself waking to the realization that what you thought was divine, in fact something totally different than expected - you just jumped into bed with the first thing that came alone.

JoeT

 

[JoeT]

I would think that someone that made such harsh criticism of my unattributed quote from a lexicon, would be more careful about ... what did you call it, oh yes, ... PLAGIARIZING the work of Susanna Elm.

Right you are:

The virgin has illustrious models to follow: the five wise virgins of Gospel of Matthew, Mary, and the famous Thecla, heroine of the Apocryphal Acts of Paul. Moreover, her bridegroom is not swayed by superficialities: 'Are you bereft of parents? You are not bereft of God. Come then, whether you are very rich or little known, whether you are poor or living from the work of your hands. Have courage, because the bridegroom Christ does not regard fading beauty...whether you are short or tall' (8, 105-9) [Susanna Elm, `Virgins of God’: The Making of Asceticism in Late Antiquity, 37]​

Thank you for pointing that out.

But you forgot the thread, is Jesus Christ begotten or made? How?

JoeT

 

[utilyan]

You mean, many, who couldn't care less about God, spend their life speculating on foolish things while never understanding the gospel.
It's so disappointing to watch people stumble over obstacles and never see Jesus.

"It's so disappointing to watch people stumble over obstacles and never see Jesus"

Lets say your in a room with a group of people. You blindfold them and plug their ears. And then you speak giving instructions. We then take off the blindfold and ear plugs.

Will they follow your instructions? Would you be angry and disappointed they did not follow your instructions?

 

[Zenas]

Of course Jesus was begotten. If He was made, he would not be God. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin. Mary was His biological mother, she gave Him His humanity. After reading through the thread, it seems the only one wanting to admit this is Utilyan. I get the impression the Baptists are saying Mary was what today we would call a surrogate mother. I hope that is not the case because such a belief would seem to deny the humanity of Christ.

 

[Particular]

Of course Jesus was begotten. If He was made, he would not be God. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin. Mary was His biological mother, she gave Him His humanity. After reading through the thread, it seems the only one wanting to admit this is Utilyan. I get the impression the Baptists are saying Mary was what today we would call a surrogate mother. I hope that is not the case because such a belief would seem to deny the humanity of Christ.

Was Adam a human? Remind me who his mother was.

 

[Zenas]

Was Adam a human? Remind me who his mother was.

Good point, but since we are looking at the creation, let’s consider the protoevangelium. Genesis 3:15 says: “And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel.” (NKJV) Jesus is the seed of the woman (Mary). He is her biological son. Nowhere else in scripture is there a reference to the seed of a woman.

 

[Particular]

Good point, but since we are looking at the creation, let’s consider the protoevangelium. Genesis 3:15 says: “And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel.” (NKJV) Jesus is the seed of the woman (Mary). He is her biological son. Nowhere else in scripture is there a reference to the seed of a woman.

Since Jesus is begotten, not made, God did not add his sperm to Mary's egg. There was no need. God did not create God in the womb. God simply is begotten in human form. He chose to go through all the stages of humanity, which means he resides in Mary's womb first and grows for 9 months until his birth in Bethlehem. He is fully human, the seed of humankind, but he is the second Adam...sinless...unlike Mary and all humanity that lived before him.
Begotten, not made. God cannot be made.

 

[Reformed1689]

By immaculate we mean she was preserved from sin, both original sin and actual sin.

Not found in Scripture.

 

[Revmitchell]

Not found in Scripture.

Havent you heard, they don't need scripture. They can just make it up as they go. In fact they misuse scripture to prove they do not need scripture to support whatever heresy they want to hold on to. It is a whirlwind of mental and theological gymnastics that allows such a logical fallacy.

 

[ntchristian]

In the EOC, Mariolatry is also a problem, although to a considerably lesser extent than in the RCC. The RCC is a corrupted version of Christianity combined with elements of the Roman Empire and paganism. Because of this, there was a need in the RCC for a goddess, and therefore one was created in Mary.

So, needless to say, when I left Orthodoxy, I did not turn towards Rome. I wanted to get back to the scriptures, not further away from them.

 

[Yeshua1]

Before we came to the end of our previous discussion we never settled what the Creed meant saying “Begotten not made”. A few philosophies were discussed of how this might be. Those discussed fall into the following categories:

Ebionism: One Divine essence, assuming a human nature. It errs viewing Jesus being merely the nature of a just man while denying his Divinity altogether.

Docetism: One Divine essence, the nature of a phantom. Koine Greek means word that means specter or phantom. A concept widely believed by the first and second century Gnostic. Christ was a specter only having the appearance of a man.

Arianist: One person, one hypostasis, two natures, one of which is servant to the other. This heresy was pretty simple, mimicking Christianity. It proposes that Jesus Christ to be One Divine Person, One Divine hypostasis, however of the tow natures, Divine and human, only the Divine functioned. Thus the human nature of man was completely and wholly over written by the nature of God; which explains its activeness to the late third through fifth century Christian the Arians didn’t need to deal with the humanity of Christ.

Nestorians: One person, two hypostases, one divine and human, two natures divine and human one prominent the other subservient. Nestorius taught that Christ had two essences, somehow God and man weren’t joined, rather separate. “Hypostasis means, literally, that which lies beneath as basis or foundation.” I think of the hypostasis as the essence of an individual. Consequently, Nestorius thought of Jesus Christ not as a single person rather two persons, it’s not quite the same as the famed ‘two tootsie rolls wrapped into one’ but it can be imagined much the same way. In this union however, the human person was subservient to the Divine Person. Consequently, you might say that human part of the union didn’t have a will of its own.

Apollinarianism: One person, one Divine hypostasis, one Divine will in two natures. Thus, according to this philosophy Jesus Christ is One Person, One Divine Essence, and One Divine Will with two natures. The human nature is adopted by the Divine whose will governs the two natures, God and man. This is the schizoid Christ who has only one soul yet two natures.

Monophysites: One person, one divine hypostasis, one divine nature as the symbol of man. Monophysites believe that Christ is One Divine Person with One Divine Nature with man being the symbol of that nature in Jesus Christ. The depth of this philosophy is God takes up the appearance of a man, looks and acts as a man, yet he is really and simply God. In essence, the antithesis of Nestorianism, the human appearance of Jesus Christ is the divine God putting on humanity as if it were a suit of clothes. The contrast between Nestorianism and Monphysitism is stark:

Nestorians: One person, two hypostases, two natures.

Monophysites: One person, one hypostasis, one nature.

Christianity: One divine person, one divine hypostasis, two natures. The incarnation is unique joining of the Divine nature with the nature of man. The will of God and the will of Jesus Christ were separate yet of one spirit forming the essence of One Divine Person.

The Christian Creed declares Jesus Christ was begotten not made for a reason. Except one, Mary, according to God’s plan is Immaculate. We hold here to be a creature just as you and I are and in need of Salvation. To keep this one tenet of faith we will find Mary’s salvation came from a singular gift of salvific grace at conception. By immaculate we mean she was preserved from sin, both original sin and actual sin.

Subsequently we find holding to the Marian doctrines crucial to the real vision of Christ if one calls himself “Christian” keeping his confessed creed of beliefs. I ask again, was Jesus Christ begotten or made?

JoeT

The Deity of Jesus is Eternal, as he was and is God the Son, and His humanity/nature was created while conceived in the womb of Mary. Now forever the God Man, while Mary was a sinner like all others save Him !

 

[utilyan]

Since Jesus is begotten, not made, God did not add his sperm to Mary's egg. There was no need. God did not create God in the womb. God simply is begotten in human form. He chose to go through all the stages of humanity, which means he resides in Mary's womb first and grows for 9 months until his birth in Bethlehem. He is fully human, the seed of humankind, but he is the second Adam...sinless...unlike Mary and all humanity that lived before him.
Begotten, not made. God cannot be made.

Then you are saying Jesus was not conceived.

Scripture clearly states :

Luke 1

31“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.

Does not say GOD will conceive. Even after the event of conception, your looking at 5 days till implantation.

If Jesus was formed independently there would be no need to use the word conceive as he is already conceived.


This is the problem you guys can't accept--->37“For nothing will be impossible with God.”

You can't stand the idea of Jesus of humble beginnings. born in a stable.


If you were conceived in a test tube, yes there are people today who are conceived this way, that doesn't make the test tube the Mother.

Mother gives the egg. Does not provide the egg, then she is not the mother. And isn't that really the issue you don't want Mary in the picture as much as possible.