Begotten or Made and Mary's role in your Salvation

[Particular]

Then you are saying Jesus was not conceived.

Scripture clearly states :

Luke 1

31“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.

Does not say GOD will conceive. Even after the event of conception, your looking at 5 days till implantation.

If Jesus was formed independently there would be no need to use the word conceive as he is already conceived.


This is the problem you guys can't accept--->37“For nothing will be impossible with God.”

You can't stand the idea of Jesus of humble beginnings. born in a stable.


If you were conceived in a test tube, yes there are people today who are conceived this way, that doesn't make the test tube the Mother.

Mother gives the egg. Does not provide the egg, then she is not the mother. And isn't that really the issue you don't want Mary in the picture as much as possible.

There is no need for mother to give an egg so that God becomes human flesh, just as God had no need for an egg or sperm for Adam to become human flesh. You are limiting God.

 

[37818]

. . . There is no need for mother to give an egg so that God becomes human flesh,

God said otherwise, ". . . her seed . . . ." -- Genesis 3:15.

 

[utilyan]

There is no need for mother to give an egg so that God becomes human flesh, just as God had no need for an egg or sperm for Adam to become human flesh. You are limiting God.

Indeed. No need for conception. there is even no need for a woman at all. If God wanted he could have just zapped and teleported a full grown Jesus to earth. He could have also been born through the DNA of DOG if he so pleased.

You are the one limiting God. You disagree by which means God wished to arrive. The means is MARY CONCEIVED.


Heres the options. Miraculous parthenogenesis. Mary gives egg, God gives sperm. God gives egg and sperm.

The reason 3rd option God gives both is not considered is because scripture clearly states MARY CONCEIVES.

The ANGEL SPECIFICALLY said YOU WILL CONCEIVE.

Also your Mother must be Jewish for you to be Jewish.


36“And behold, even your relative Elizabeth has also conceived a son in her old age; and she who was called barren is now in her sixth month.

Did God impregnate Elizabeth with a fetus also?

 

[JoeT]

The Deity of Jesus is Eternal, as he was and is God the Son, and His humanity/nature was created while conceived in the womb of Mary. Now forever the God Man, while Mary was a sinner like all others save Him !

Where in Sacred Scripture does it say 'Mary was a sinner'? I must've missed that part.

JoeT

 

[JoeT]

There is no need for mother to give an egg so that God becomes human flesh, just as God had no need for an egg or sperm for Adam to become human flesh. You are limiting God.

The male role in procreation merely delivers the 'spark of life', insemination. In humans no genetic material remains with the ovaries (the mother's flesh). The 'spark' starts the generative division of cells forming from the mother's fleshy cells into a wholly individual rational being within the ovary. The resulting life is indeed the flesh of its mother and human. The child's veins are filled with blood generated within him; there is no transfer of blood from the mother to the child. Hence, the blood of Christ was the blood of eternal life.

Human flesh of a child is not a metastasized flesh in the belly of women; human beings are born of women, from inception to the birth of a new life. That is to say, women carry the seed of flesh to which the spark of life is added by her mate, a process of life ensues and a human child - not something like a demigod. God prepared the body and soul of the Virgin to be an earthly habitation worthy of his only begotten Son, without sin, actual or original. As the Father, God causes the seed to grow with and in His Wisdom (we can say God provides the "spark" of life. This Child is both God, and human, perfectly and inseparably joined, “and the Logos [Wisdom] was God”[Cf. John 1:1]

Consequently, the 'egg' was indeed present in Mary; the flesh that Jesus Christ bore was that of His mother who was the Ark of the New Covenant.

JoeT

 

[JoeT]

Of course Jesus was begotten. If He was made, he would not be God. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin. Mary was His biological mother, she gave Him His humanity. After reading through the thread, it seems the only one wanting to admit this is Utilyan. I get the impression the Baptists are saying Mary was what today we would call a surrogate mother. I hope that is not the case because such a belief would seem to deny the humanity of Christ.

In Protestantism there seems to be all kinds of theories. Of course Mary was the biological Mother and the Holy Spirit the biological father. The mother of Jesus Christ appears in Scripture uncounted times, all refer to Mary as his "mother'. Furthermore, Jesus wasn't 'made' in the womb of a woman and kept there for 9 months. Even from the womb He held court, blessing John: For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord." [Luke 1:44-45] What else can we conclude; in concluding something different, the Son of God is made something other than God/man.

JoeT

 

[JoeT]

The Deity of Jesus is Eternal, as he was and is God the Son, and His humanity/nature was created while conceived in the womb of Mary. Now forever the God Man, while Mary was a sinner like all others save Him !

What was He when He walked the earth, a phantasm, or specter? How does one issue forth in birth a specter?

JoeT

 

[Particular]

God said otherwise, ". . . her seed . . . ." -- Genesis 3:15.

Seed does not equal egg.
Jesus was born from out of a sinful human known to the world as...Mary. From out of a sinner comes the sinless God in human form...the second Adam.

 

[Particular]

What was He when He walked the earth, a phantasm, or specter? How does one issue forth in birth a specter?

JoeT

He was fully human and fully God. Do you think God is limited?

 

[Particular]

Indeed. No need for conception. there is even no need for a woman at all. If God wanted he could have just zapped and teleported a full grown Jesus to earth. He could have also been born through the DNA of DOG if he so pleased.

You are the one limiting God. You disagree by which means God wished to arrive. The means is MARY CONCEIVED.


Heres the options. Miraculous parthenogenesis. Mary gives egg, God gives sperm. God gives egg and sperm.

The reason 3rd option God gives both is not considered is because scripture clearly states MARY CONCEIVES.

The ANGEL SPECIFICALLY said YOU WILL CONCEIVE.

Also your Mother must be Jewish for you to be Jewish.


36“And behold, even your relative Elizabeth has also conceived a son in her old age; and she who was called barren is now in her sixth month.

Did God impregnate Elizabeth with a fetus also?

Indeed, God does as he wills. God chose to make covenants with men and bring what he promised through those covenants. Therefore God came and was born of a woman, just as God said he would.

 

[Reformed1689]

Where in Sacred Scripture does it say 'Mary was a sinner'? I must've missed that part.

JoeT

Romans 3:23

 

[tyndale1946]

Romans 3:23

I will not argue about Mary being a sinner, she needed a Savior like we all do, and birthed her Salvation... What bothers me is, I know brethren like myself believe in the Eternal Sonship of Jesus Christ... He was a Son before he had a body... He was in the garden when Adam was created... Let us make man... If he wasn't, who is the us?... God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit... He came down from his world in Heaven to carry out the will of the Father and he needed a body fashion like Adam to do so, but sinless... He didn't come into being in a stable in Bethlehem he always was... To understand the eternal
don't try, just accept scripture for what it says!

Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

Now we know!... Brother Glen

 

[JoeT]

Romans 3:23

Then you must believe that Jesus Christ was a sinner, He was one of us.

JoeT

 

[JoeT]

The Deity of Jesus is Eternal, as he was and is God the Son, and His humanity/nature was created while conceived in the womb of Mary.

I can understand this two ways

1. Mary made Jesus Christ in the womb.
2. Jesus had a creator who created Him inside the womb of Mary.

Which is it?

Now forever the God Man, while Mary was a sinner like all others save Him !

Moses' Ark of the Covenant was flawless, and a Holy object. You mean that Jesus Christ, God, came to us in unholy box?

JoeT

 

[Particular]

Then you must believe that Jesus Christ was a sinner, He was one of us.

JoeT

The second Adam. Fully God and fully man.
If you think Mary was sinless, then her matriarchal line had to be sinless, which means Eve would have been sinless. But, you make it up out of thin air and then say "prove me wrong." So silly of you.

 

[JoeT]

I will not argue about Mary being a sinner, she needed a Savior like we all do, and birthed her Salvation... What bothers me is, I know brethren like myself believe in the Eternal Sonship of Jesus Christ... He was a Son before he had a body... He was in the garden when Adam was created... Let us make man... If he wasn't, who is the us?... God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit... He came down from his world in Heaven to carry out the will of the Father and he needed a body fashion like Adam to do so, but sinless... He didn't come into being in a stable in Bethlehem he always was... To understand the eternal don't try, just accept scripture for what it says!

Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

Now we know!... Brother Glen

If I understand the phrase "eternal Sonship" correctly you might find post 24 the same thing. I've read this was the explanation used prior to the advent of the Apostle's written witness. However, even here you'll find that Mary must be held to be ever Virgin, else one is forced into the acknowledging Jesus Christ is born of corruption.

JoeT

 

[JoeT]

Not found in Scripture.

I suppose you never take a car, a bus, a train, or an airplane on your trips far from home; none of these are found in Scripture either.

JoeT

 

[JoeT]

The second Adam. Fully God and fully man.

And according to Hebrews 'without sin'. This would be without original sin as well as without actual sin. Original sin comes to us men as members of the tribe of humanity unless of course that human is born of a type of Eve before the fall. Is Mary a type of New Eve or not?

If you think Mary was sinless, then her matriarchal line had to be sinless, which means Eve would have been sinless. But, you make it up out of thin air and then say "prove me wrong." So silly of you.

If you don't think that Mary was born immaculate, protected from ever knowing sin, then your Jesus Christ had original sin. And He was born of corruption. This doesn't seem like the right kind of Jesus Christ to me, what say you?

JoeT

 

[JoeT]

The second Adam. Fully God and fully man.

And it would be unbecoming of the God to come in a trash can.

If you think Mary was sinless, then her matriarchal line had to be sinless, which means Eve would have been sinless.

You claim to be saved. Did your parents walk the aisle for you? You would need to claim your salvation on your own confession of faith, not your parents. It is Baptism's grace from God that saves you. So, what if God gave Mary the salvific graces in her conception? Tell us you know God wouldn't, couldn't and shouldn't do that.

But, you make it up out of thin air and then say "prove me wrong." So silly of you.

. Simple logic. A rabbit mates with rabbit and begets little rabbits, right? A donkey mates with donkey and begets little donkeys, right. God mates with the pure and the innocent to produce little pure and innocence, the infant Jesus Christ. You don't even need to be a Catholic to figure that one out.

JoeT

 

[Particular]

And according to Hebrews 'without sin'. This would be without original sin as well as without actual sin. Original sin comes to us men as members of the tribe of humanity unless of course that human is born of a type of Eve before the fall. Is Mary a type of New Eve or not?



If you don't think that Mary was born immaculate, protected from ever knowing sin, then your Jesus Christ had original sin. And He was born of corruption. This doesn't seem like the right kind of Jesus Christ to me, what say you?

JoeT

Not if God is begotten and came into Mary's womb without any dna from Mary.
We know there is no dna from Joseph. So, either God overpowered Mary's corruption (possible) or God the Son is the second Adam, sinless man and begotten of the Father.
If, Mary was sinless, then then Eve was sinless and all women from her are sinless down to Mary.
It is doubtful you will follow the lineage backward to Eve if Mary was sinless as you have a Roman Catholic dogma to uphold that has zero biblical support.