Being Chosen Requires a Response (Of Faith) from One’s Own Heart! Like it or Not!

[Mexdeaf]

You notice the title of this thread is a parady of the thread?:

You Are Chosen! Believe it or Not! Like it or Not!

Does anyone not see the deterministic factor in that title? My title pits creaturely volition against the doctrines of Determinism. Does anyone note that He left the "or Not!" off the "You are Chosen!" That title is typical of the masking used by Calvinist that hides the transparency that their doctrine, gospel message, amounts to and gives yet another example which is equal to saying the Good News is only for for the specially preselected few...Like it or Not!...Na Na Doo Doo if you're one of the unlucky ones that wasn't pre-chosen! This message isn't for you! :tear:

1) There is no boasting for the elect over the non-elect. We performed no works, no merit, no self-derived will to come to God. Our only boast is in the cross of Christ (Gal. 6:14).

2) God will be glorified in all things, including His wrath to those who are at enmity with him. In the end, God's holiness will be displayed and His wrath will come against the ungodly. That's not a 'bad' thing that requires pity - it's a Biblical concept ignored in modern Christianity.

 

[Winman]

You notice the title of this thread is a parady of the thread?:

You Are Chosen! Believe it or Not! Like it or Not!

Does anyone not see the deterministic factor in that title? My title pits creaturely volition against the doctrines of Determinism. Does anyone note that He left the "or Not!" off the "You are Chosen!" That title is typical of the masking used by Calvinist that hides the transparency that their doctrine, gospel message, amounts to and gives yet another example which is equal to saying the Good News is only for for the specially preselected few...Like it or Not!...Na Na Doo Doo if you're one of the unlucky ones that wasn't pre-chosen! This message isn't for you! :tear:

What is comical is that not one of these Calvinists truly knows they are the elect. Oh, they will insist they do, but if their doctrine is true and Jesus only died for "some" men, they have no idea if they are one of the elect.

Yet, they will insist they are elect. And what will they say proves this? Their response! They will all suddenly say they believed, and that is a response.

Your OP is correct.

 

[Greektim]

You notice the title of this thread is a parady of the thread?:

You Are Chosen! Believe it or Not! Like it or Not!

Does anyone not see the deterministic factor in that title? My title pits creaturely volition against the doctrines of Determinism. Does anyone note that He left the "or Not!" off the "You are Chosen!" That title is typical of the masking used by Calvinist that hides the transparency that their doctrine, gospel message, amounts to and gives yet another example which is equal to saying the Good News is only for for the specially preselected few...Like it or Not!...Na Na Doo Doo if you're one of the unlucky ones that wasn't pre-chosen! This message isn't for you! :tear:

I noticed that is was playing off the other thread. That doesn't make it any less non-sensical.

 

[Greektim]

What is comical is that not one of these Calvinists truly knows they are the elect. Oh, they will insist they do, but if their doctrine is true and Jesus only died for "some" men, they have no idea if they are one of the elect.

Yet, they will insist they are elect. And what will they say proves this? Their response! They will all suddenly say they believed, and that is a response.

Your OP is correct.

That is simply wrong. I am able to determine my status before God by my fruits. That was Jesus' test. That was John's test. Paul told us to take the test. And not to toot my own horn, but by God's grace, I am a new creation, old things have passed away, all things are new. Thus I know I am part of the elect.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Same old tired arguments over the same old issues that do not advance the kingdom and do not advance knowledge of God. Not one iota.

Proverbs 13:10 By pride cometh only contention; But with the well-advised is wisdom.

 

[Winman]

That is simply wrong. I am able to determine my status before God by my fruits. That was Jesus' test. That was John's test. Paul told us to take the test. And not to toot my own horn, but by God's grace, I am a new creation, old things have passed away, all things are new. Thus I know I am part of the elect.

Is it possible for a man who never responds in faith to be one of the elect? Yes or no?

Please answer that question.

 

[OldRegular]

That is simply wrong. I am able to determine my status before God by my fruits. That was Jesus' test. That was John's test. Paul told us to take the test. And not to toot my own horn, but by God's grace, I am a new creation, old things have passed away, all things are new. Thus I know I am part of the elect.

I believe this is what Peter had reference to when he wrote:

2 Peter 1:10. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Of course Jesus Christ Himself said: Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. [Matthew 7:20]

And again in Ephesians we read the fruits of the Saints saved By Grace: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. [Ephesians 2:10]

God ordained that we should do good works before He saved us; probably at the same time He Chose us!

Tha Apostle Paul had a dramatic encounter on the way to Damascus. Later he would tell us: I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. [2 Timothy 1:12]

In Paul's statement and life we see the role that Faith must play in the life of the Elect!

 

[Iconoclast]

Or

iginally posted by Iconoclast:
6] If he tries to mock and scoff like those in 2 pet3...I do mention that God has not planned to save everyone, and unless God allows a sinner to repent and believe,,,they will die in their sins.......
If someone scoffs at me I still tell them the Gospel (Good News) that Jesus loves them. Can you? I can do that, honestly, and I can honestly tell them the offer of redemption has been genuinely given to them, that they can know the truth and that the love of the truth in this matter can set them free and “God will give them all they need to come to faith, ask for it from your heart”. I can back this (volitional ability) up scripturally from throughout the Bible and I leave them with no excuse, can you?

Will you make the same claim as Iconoclast? If not, why not if that is what you believe? Do you not see the difference between Good News and Bad News? Here is what the Bible says concerning a message of light and one of darkness, you and/or the reader figure the truth out about what your Doctrine of Calvinism/Determinism adds up to for yourself (As I'm sure my frank opinion of the Calvinist doctrine wouldn't be well recieved on this board):

You offer a false message...a lie. God does not love the scoffer or reprobate.Who are you to tell them God loves them???
If God loves them he will draw them to faith and enable them to believe. We do not know if he loves them or not.The only Thing we know is God loves sinners in Christ.
God has commanded the gospel be preached to all men...so we do not have to know the secret things that belong to God alone.We just need to be faithful to the message.
i know you like the list of things that I posted to you that day Benjamin...it would be good for you to save it to your favorites and go over it from time t time .
I actually mentioned the same ideas this week out in LA. with a salesperson....it went over very well.

That God has a multitude that he died for....and all of them are going to come to Him, no matter if soeme scoff, resist , or not....can be a very compelling reason for someone to consider why they have not yet come...it worked for the Apostles...it worked for Jesus....so we can certainly follow what they proclaimed.

 

[OldRegular]

What is comical is that not one of these Calvinists truly knows they are the elect. Oh, they will insist they do, but if their doctrine is true and Jesus only died for "some" men, they have no idea if they are one of the elect.

Yet, they will insist they are elect. And what will they say proves this? Their response! They will all suddenly say they believed, and that is a response.

Your OP is correct.

Did Paul know he was elect? what about Peter and John? All talked about election. Greektim has responded appropriately to your nonsensical statement.

 

[OldRegular]

1) There is no boasting for the elect over the non-elect. We performed no works, no merit, no self-derived will to come to God. Our only boast is in the cross of Christ (Gal. 6:14).

2) God will be glorified in all things, including His wrath to those who are at enmity with him. In the end, God's holiness will be displayed and His wrath will come against the ungodly. That's not a 'bad' thing that requires pity - it's a Biblical concept ignored in modern Christianity.

Excellent response to the initiator of the OP! I have yet to see anyone on this Forum boast that they are among the elect. Yet there is an attitude of arrogance among some of the non-cals, as they call themselves, who insist that their Salvation is the result of their free will.

 

[OldRegular]

You notice the title of this thread is a parady of the thread?:

You Are Chosen! Believe it or Not! Like it or Not!

Does anyone not see the deterministic factor in that title? My title pits creaturely volition against the doctrines of Determinism. Does anyone note that He left the "or Not!" off the "You are Chosen!" That title is typical of the masking used by Calvinist that hides the transparency that their doctrine, gospel message, amounts to and gives yet another example which is equal to saying the Good News is only for for the specially preselected few...Like it or Not!...Na Na Doo Doo if you're one of the unlucky ones that wasn't pre-chosen! This message isn't for you! :tear:

I would say your OP is a parOdy of the Gospel!

 

[Benjamin]

I would say your OP is a parOdy of the Gospel!

Yeah, you could say that but it doesn't mean much to me as its more of the same in that all you've offered is senseless rhetoric and whinning in rebutal of what the the Op brings to light.

 

[OldRegular]

Yeah, you could say that but it doesn't mean much to me as its more of the same in that all you've offered is senseless rhetoric and whinning in rebutal of what the the Op brings to light.

A parOdy of the Gospel cannot bring light!

 

[Winman]

Did Paul know he was elect? what about Peter and John? All talked about election. Greektim has responded appropriately to your nonsensical statement.

Yes, Paul knew he was elect, but Paul also told us he responded and was obedient to the call of Jesus.

Acts 26:13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

Yes, Paul was elect, but Paul also responded to the call of salvation, he said he obeyed Jesus, and that is a response.

Paul was also told he would be sent to preach to the Gentiles that they "may receive" (a response) forgiveness of sins "by faith that is in me" (a response).

Look up "may receive" in Strongs and it is defined as to take hold of something with the hands. It is a reaction on the part of the hearer to the gospel, a response. It is not something imposed or forced upon a person.

You cannot be one of the elect if you do not respond in faith to Jesus Christ. Calvinsts insist over and over that man plays no role in salvation, but there is no such thing as a person being saved unless they respond in faith and believe on Jesus.

You cannot be elect unless you respond in faith. The OP is correct.

I would like any Calvinist/Reformed person here to explain how a person can be elect unless they respond in faith to the gospel.

How is that possible?

 

[Mexdeaf]

Excellent response to the initiator of the OP!

And I notice that no one has responded to it. Hmmm?

 

[Winman]

And I notice that no one has responded to it. Hmmm?

Here is what you said;

1) There is no boasting for the elect over the non-elect. We performed no works, no merit, no self-derived will to come to God. Our only boast is in the cross of Christ (Gal. 6:14).

2) God will be glorified in all things, including His wrath to those who are at enmity with him. In the end, God's holiness will be displayed and His wrath will come against the ungodly. That's not a 'bad' thing that requires pity - it's a Biblical concept ignored in modern Christianity.

I will respond to #1, as #2 is irrelevant.

It is true that we cannot merit eternal life through works. But a person must respond to God and believe the gospel. That must come from the will. The will belongs to the person, no one can will for you. That is not to say our will cannot be influenced by God (or others). I agree that no man of himself would will to believe, but a man can be convicted and persuaded to believe through the preaching of the word of God. Nevertheless, the man must make a decision for himself, an act of his own will to believe.

Jhn 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

There is much in this verse that refutes Total Inabillity.

If- this word indicates real option

any man- this phrase indicates all men have this real option

will- this word points back to the phrase "If any man" and shows all men have option, and that the will belongs to the man. The man has the ability to choose what his will is. His will is not enslaved, it has real option.

do- this word indicates ability

his will- this phrase distinguishes between the Father's will and the will of the man, again showing the man's decision is his own.

Put all together, this shows man has his own independent will, but man is able to will what God wills. Or, he can choose not to will what God wills. He has both option and ability, and the will is his own.

No man can be elect unless he makes a choice of his own will to believe the gospel. Unless the man willingly responds in faith, he cannot be elect.

The OP is correct.

 

[psalms109:31]

I believe it is very counter productive for God to tell us to do a verb and action trust and believe and someone going behind them and saying they are saving themselves, you don't believe in the doctrine of grace.

We really can't believe without knowing what to believe. So we have to trust in Jesus to help us in our unbelief, because that is where we are when we don't trust in Jesus and listen and learn.

We have to have an action with the noun faith, but it is that very faith that comes from the word of God through Jesus that saves.

Without action faith is dead

 

[OldRegular]

I would like any Calvinist/Reformed person here to explain how a person can be elect unless they respond in faith to the gospel.

How is that possible?

They are elect because before the foundation of the world God chose them. That is clearly taught in Ephesians 1:3-7 but you refuse to believe what is taught there. It is clearly taught, and repeatedly, in the Gospel of John but you refuse to believe it. It is clearly taught in Acts 13:48 but you insist on twisting the words.

No one who believes in the Doctrine of Grace denies the essential role of faith in salvation. I have said that repeatedly on this Forum. Justification by faith alone was the rallying cry of the Reformation. Scripture tells us: The just shall live by faith. [Romans 1:17; Galatians 3:11; Hebrews 10:38; Habakkuk 2:4] It is only you, and those like you, who twist the Doctrines of Grace to eliminate Faith.

The truth is that only those Chosen by God to Salvation before the foundation of the world will respond to the Gospel through faith. That choosing and that Salvation came with a price and that price was the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

 

[The Archangel]

Talk about begging the question, so much for those critical thinking skills. Truth and transparency is not important?! You tell someone if they believe they will be saved while NOT telling them that you believe only the specially pre-selected few have been determined to be able to do so? Sounds like a half-truth at best and that’s being generous. Let me give you a simple lesson in critical thinking skills while you go about trying to force fit the philosophical Doctrines of Calvinism, which logically hinge on strict Determinism onto your theology: “T+F=T is in no way a logical truth”.

You would think that you, being so impressed with your own logic and critical thinking skills, would employ something other than a "liar-liar-pants-on-fire" response. Why not address what I believe with a scriptural question to ascertain what I belive and why? Rather than telling me what I believe--as if you assume yourself to be omnisciently godlike.

Freely from your own heart?! Maybe you are a closet Arminian…but SO much for the Calvinist doctrines of TULIP which all logically hinge on Determinism… Your debate on this matter is much like your presentation of the Gospel, you leave out important specific details which conflict your “Idea” and give a half-truth and say, “That’s it.”

We have been trying to tell you all along that we believe in a response of faith that comes from our heart. We simply believe that God enables the response through the regeneration of the Holy Spirit. You simply do not care to listen and probe further for understanding. Perhaps you think that seeking understanding of our position would be the same as agreeing with our position?

You bet I’m aware. it is clear that God is who understands the heart the man; this is why God sent the Holy Spirit to influence the heart, this is why the Son came and died to bring the Word into all the world and give light to everyman, this is why God genuinely offers a promise of grace to all His creatures upon the condition of faith, for love of the truth (that influence, that light, that truth that God is Love) that is revealed to them and this is why no man will have an excuse (Rom 1:20) when it comes the time of truth in judgment (Deut 32:4) because man has a “true” responsibility to respond to the light which is given them and without everyman having the true ability to respond all this becomes a lie except (according to the Calvinist/Determinist Doctrines) for the specially preselected few.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
(Rom 1:20)

He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
(Deu 32:4)

So, you think the Holy Spirit influences everyone. Ok, we think the Holy Spirit influences the Elect.

So let me ask this again (question you conveniently ignored): Do you pray that persons you know who are not believers, perhaps a friend, co-worker, or family member, come to Christ?

If the Calvinist is true to their doctrine of pre-determinism and preaching their gospel then they will tell their “truth” that some aren’t given light. Is that not so?! Want an example of true Calvinist gospel preaching from one who got pinned down on this board to reveal the bottom line?:

If someone scoffs at me I still tell them the Gospel (Good News) that Jesus loves them. Can you? I can do that, honestly, and I can honestly tell them the offer of redemption has been genuinely given to them, that they can know the truth and that the love of the truth in this matter can set them free and “God will give them all they need to come to faith, ask for it from your heart”. I can back this (volitional ability) up scripturally from throughout the Bible and I leave them with no excuse, can you?

Will you make the same claim as Iconoclast? If not, why not if that is what you believe? Do you not see the difference between Good News and Bad News? Here is what the Bible says concerning a message of light and one of darkness, you and/or the reader figure the truth out about what your Doctrine of Calvinism/Determinism adds up to for yourself (As I'm sure my frank opinion of the Calvinist doctrine wouldn't be well recieved [sic] on this board):

“This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.”
(1Jn 1:5)

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
(Joh 1:9)

So, you're making the claim that Jesus enlightens every man. You seem to get this from a particularly poor translation that the KJV gives of John 1:9 (which is a common misunderstanding).

But, even if we grant the KJV's translation, do you really mean to say that the Native Americans of, say, AD 300, were "enlightened" and saved? Is that really what you're saying?

As far as explaining election as part of evangelism...of course we don't do that and it isn't for dishonest reasons. But then again, you don't explain every doctrine, say the incarnation or the trinity, in your presentation of the Gospel. Why? Because understanding the systematics of the doctrines is not essential to salvation.

Here, again, is the example I gave: The fact of the matter is that we do not explain the doctrine of election to unbelievers because it is not important to do so. Do you explain electrical theory and the principles of physics to your young children so they can turn on a light, or do you just tell them to flip the switch? Of course, it is the latter.

It is this way with all "doctrine." The instruction, usually, comes after conversion.

(As I'm sure my frank opinion of the Calvinist doctrine wouldn't be well recieved [sic] on this board):

Well then, that does speak volumes. So, you--by your own admission--are writing out of a type of hatred for us, then. Your concealing of this "frank opinion" is, in a sense, being dishonest. This explains much. Why don't you say what you really feel? Because you don't believe Calvinists are Christians, that's why. And, to voice your true opinion would be to break the BB rules. You don't treat us the way you'd like to be treated. Know we know why. Of course, your actions here speak volumes more about you than us.

The Archangel

 

[Winman]

They are elect because before the foundation of the world God chose them. That is clearly taught in Ephesians 1:3-7 but you refuse to believe what is taught there. It is clearly taught, and repeatedly, in the Gospel of John but you refuse to believe it. It is clearly taught in Acts 13:48 but you insist on twisting the words.

No one who believes in the Doctrine of Grace denies the essential role of faith in salvation. I have said that repeatedly on this Forum. Justification by faith alone was the rallying cry of the Reformation. Scripture tells us: The just shall live by faith. [Romans 1:17; Galatians 3:11; Hebrews 10:38; Habakkuk 2:4] It is only you, and those like you, who twist the Doctrines of Grace to eliminate Faith.

The truth is that only those Chosen by God to Salvation before the foundation of the world will respond to the Gospel through faith. That choosing and that Salvation came with a price and that price was the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Then you admit the OP is correct, that to be Elect you must respond in faith.

This means that man plays a role in salvation. And as I showed in an earlier post, Jesus said that we "receive" the forgiveness of sins. This word "receive" is not passive, forgiveness is not placed or imposed on us, but the believer actively takes hold on this forgiveness through faith in Jesus (Acts 26:18).

The OP is correct.