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Being Chosen Requires a Response (Of Faith) from One’s Own Heart! Like it or Not!

The Archangel

Well-Known Member
I misrepresent nothing. Free will should be defined as volition and this sustains the meaning that a creature has the ability to consciously choose; one cannot do both, have this ability and not have this ability in any logical sense. If creaturely response is determined by causal means to have an irresistible effect on the creature then creaturely volition logically becomes void.

You most certainly do misrepresent what we think. And you do so through simply human logic, not a logic that tries to attain a "whole Bible theology."

You simply state your definition of volitional free will as fact (begging the question, by the way). In doing so, you seem to want to arrange a false dichotomy wherein man's "free will" is at odds with God's sovereignty.

In every example, from the tame to the extreme, the creature's decisions are never based solely on the creature's volition, as some outside influence is always brought to bear.

By the way...here's a question for you: Do you pray that persons you know who are not believers, perhaps a friend, co-worker, or family member come to Christ?

Frankly, I resent your false accusation of me hating my brothers and sisters, what is it in you that causes you to misrepresent me with that lie (strawman)? Could it be you have nothing else left in your ignorance of critical thinking skills but to deny simple logic and resort to such ad hominem fallacious tactics while making claims of personal martyrdom?

I'm deeply moved. You demonstrate something other than loving your brothers and sisters when you take your false definition of what we believe and keep on trying to impose that false definition on us. This is a textbook definition of creating a strawman--you misrepresent our position by creating a false caricature and then you "fight" against the caricature.

I am by no means ignorant of critical thinking skills. I use my skills to interpret scripture and to see how scripture interprets itself. I do not use my skills to apply non-biblical definitions of things, like free will, over the text and then make the text subservient to my a priori ideas.

My argument is against the Doctrines of Calvinism/Determinism and you can put it in the bank that I have a problem with a doctrine that would preach the dark message of no hope except for the especially lucky pre-selected election of the few, even if they won’t admit it with some “truth” and transparency up front when preaching what they call the gospel as I spelled out in the Op. It is not the Gospel (Good News) to all the world in the Calvinist position but its a gospel is bad news for for most when the "truth" of what they believe is ever told.

You accuse us of preaching a false gospel? Really?! You call the Calvinist gospel "a dark message of no hope." If this is true, which it isn't, then I would be saying your non-Calvinist, free-will gospel is a dark message of hope in one's self, which I am not.

As for the gospel...I suppose you preach "Salvation through grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone." This is exactly what the Calvinists preach.

The fact of the matter is that we do not explain the doctrine of election to unbelievers because it is not important to do so. Do you explain electrical theory and the principles of physics to your young children so they can turn on a light, or do you just tell them to flip the switch? Of course, it is the latter.

Furthermore, we preach the gospel indiscriminately. We have no idea who the elect are--which is a good thing. We do not base preaching the gospel or the subsequent resulting salvation resulting from a response of repentance and faith on election or lack thereof. We say that salvation--the response of repentance and faith--is the evidence of God's work in your life, up to and including election and exercising repentance and faith.

And Needlessly?!? NOT for the multitudes who are familiar with the Calvinist doctrines and have been lead to believe they may not have been one of the preselected few and thereby have an excuse not to respond while making the same argument Determinist do! Simply, the condition of faith from one’s own heart is not met in the systematic ramblings of Calvinism/Determinism as it amounts to a doctrine of pre-determined grace alone!

The condition of faith from one's own heart? What you seem to be missing here is that we believe that faith must be exercised too.

But, you are aware of the the Bible says about the heart, right?
[5] The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
(Genesis 6:5 ESV)

[9] The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it? (Jeremiah 17:9 ESV)​
You're saying that a deceitful-above-all-things and a only-evil-continually heart can produce the faith necessary for salvation? I think that's far stretch.

But, even if we grant that it is possible (which we do not), why can you not grant that we preach the necessity of a response of faith? If your father is a judge and issues a bench warrant because you owe $1,000 and you come before him in his court, does it really matter if you bring your own $1,000 to pay the debt or if he gives you the $1,000 to pay the debt. At the end of the day the debt is paid and the "requirement" is met.

Furthermore, if salvation is by God's grace alone, and therefore is something we do not deserve, why would it be a problem for God to supply the faith as well?

If grace is indeed "unmerited favor" the gift of faith is no problem. However, as you seem to want to argue, if God's salvation is the result of a proper response of one's own inherent faith, then grace becomes "merited favor" and is no longer "grace."

The Calvinist/Determinist idea of a response of faith is not that it comes freely from your own heart due to the influences of God, but that He pre-determinately caused that irresistible effect to respond to those influences. Yes, the Bible requires a real, a true responsibility from man to respond in a condition of faith for love of the truth of the Word after hearing it.

You are simply wrong. The Calvinist idea is that a response of faith comes freely from our own heart due to the influence of God, working through the Holy Spirit. That's it.

In our "economy" is the response of faith a result of the working of the Holy Spirit in the elect? Yes. But, as we are fond of saying, God makes the constitutionally unwilling willing.

Again, I would hope you would discuss with us based on what we say we believe, not your own caricature of us. As brothers and sisters in Christ, we, at the very least, deserve that measure of respect from you. That is, of course, unless you do not consider us brothers and sisters...but that is a different issue entirely.

The Archangel
 
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The Archangel

Well-Known Member
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
(John 3:15-17)

I wanted to address this separately, since the issue may be different.

You are using the KJV here, right? Of course you're aware that "whosoever" is a wrong translation, right? The word (πιστεύων) is a participle. The phrase itself (πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων) is translated as "all the ones believing."

The word the KJV uses, whosoever, isn't there in the text. I suspect that you, along with countless others, use the word "whosoever" as a proof-text of sorts to support many things, including the idea that there is no such thing as election.

I'm interested to hear your response.

The Archangel
 

Dr. Bob

Administrator
Administrator
I'd ask that language be carefully used here - to call a doctrine "false" or "dark" or "hateful" is not helping discussion . . and only makes the person thus ranting seem less Christ-like.

And misrepresenting? Why not simply QUOTE the other person rather than spewing "What ______ REALLY MEANS is xyz" Use THEIR words.

Or hey, I could just shut this down. My free will. ;)
 

The Archangel

Well-Known Member
Albert Mohler used a very similar expression in his brotherly discussion with Paige Patterson of the Doctrines of Grace.

Well then, I guess my "apple" didn't fall far from his "tree." I am an alumnus of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, after all, having earned a Master of Divinity.

I guess the teaching worked! :)

The Archangel
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Seriously, what is it in you that causes so much hatred for your brothers and sisters that happen to be Calvinists? Why do you so needlessly and incessantly misrepresent what we believe? We are not determinists as you describe us.

No true Calvinist that I know of would reject the need to exercise faith in order to be saved. The issue is where does that faith come from. None of us believes that persons are saved without believing.

The issue is, as you've addressed this thread, a response of faith. Do we, as Calvinists, believe in a necessary response of repentance and faith in order to be saved? Absolutely. The difference is this: We believe the response of faith is the result of election (being chosen), not the cause of it. The faith still comes from our own heart, though we think it is a gift of the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.

But, to say we don't believe in a necessary response to the Gospel and Christ of repentance and faith is to misrepresent our position and to build a strawman for your own morbid and ignorant delights.

I certainly hope you will, at the very least, rightly represent what we say we believe. A brother or sister in Christ deserves at least that much from you.

The Archangel

I put in bold a part of your post and would like to post a couple of verses and ask a question.

And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; (By calling/choosing him even when he was en-route for the following.) Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief. 1 Tim 1:12.13


Would you agree with me that when Jesus calls one and gives the gift of the Holy Spirit to one, that one is moved/translated from a state of unbelief unto a state of belief, in other words he becomes a believer?

A person of faith.
 

The Archangel

Well-Known Member
Would you agree with me that when Jesus calls one and gives the gift of the Holy Spirit to one, that one is moved/translated from a state of unbelief unto a state of belief, in other words he becomes a believer?

A person of faith.

Not necessarily. I do not think it is right to equate "the gift of the Holy Spirit" to "becoming a believer." But, I will admit, I tend to follow the Puritans on this. The Puritans thought in terms of periods of awakening. These periods resulted in true salvation, ultimately. But, the Puritans did not consider someone in an early period of awakening to necessarily be a true believer. Even Jonathan Edwards' own father questioned his (Jonathan's) salvation--and, if memory serves, this was after Edwards was already pastoring.

That the Holy Spirit does His work of regeneration is a given. However, that work having been begun, does not mean someone has become a believer at that instant. Now, the work having been begun does mean, at some point, the person will become a believer. I think it an important distinction to say the beginning of the Holy Spirit's work does not necessarily mean someone has been converted. After all, we tend to see conversion as evidence of the Holy Spirit's work having been going on, for a while or not, and we really have no idea when that work began.

The Archangel
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I understand that my understanding of faith is different from anything you or I have ever read and I have not a clue where my understanding has come from, however I am sure all of you will have an answer for me.

I do ask for all to examine it against all scripture and let the chips fall where they may.

On both sides of the fence of the issue from those who post without a doubt both believe for salvation there has to some kind of response from the recipient.

But does it?

Look at the Old and New Covenant in Hebrews 8.

The old required a response from the people with which it was made and they failed in their response.

Under the New there is shown that God does it all. It is even stated that the people do not have to teach their neighbor because God is doing it all.

Does my understanding of the faith not do the very same thing?
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The same concept is found in this statement.

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

One was not born because he responded to something and neither will he be born again or from above because he responded to something.

It will be an act of God.
 

The Archangel

Well-Known Member
I understand that my understanding of faith is different from anything you or I have ever read and I have not a clue where my understanding has come from, however I am sure all of you will have an answer for me.

I do ask for all to examine it against all scripture and let the chips fall where they may.

On both sides of the fence of the issue from those who post without a doubt both believe for salvation there has to some kind of response from the recipient.

But does it?

Look at the Old and New Covenant in Hebrews 8.

The old required a response from the people with which it was made and they failed in their response.

Under the New there is shown that God does it all. It is even stated that the people do not have to teach their neighbor because God is doing it all.

Does my understanding of the faith not do the very same thing?

So are you asking: Does God believe for us?

The Archangel
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Not necessarily. I do not think it is right to equate "the gift of the Holy Spirit" to "becoming a believer." But, I will admit, I tend to follow the Puritans on this. The Puritans thought in terms of periods of awakening. These periods resulted in true salvation, ultimately. But, the Puritans did not consider someone in an early period of awakening to necessarily be a true believer. Even Jonathan Edwards' own father questioned his (Jonathan's) salvation--and, if memory serves, this was after Edwards was already pastoring.

That the Holy Spirit does His work of regeneration is a given. However, that work having been begun, does not mean someone has become a believer at that instant. Now, the work having been begun does mean, at some point, the person will become a believer. I think it an important distinction to say the beginning of the Holy Spirit's work does not necessarily mean someone has been converted. After all, we tend to see conversion as evidence of the Holy Spirit's work having been going on, for a while or not, and we really have no idea when that work began.

The Archangel


hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.


Well we are not told how many days he was with the disciples but we are told in another place that what he knew concerning the Christ he did not learn from men.

He definitely went from one to the other fast.
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
So are you asking: Does God believe for us?

The Archangel

Imputation.

Post 7

And if you really are interested read my post in General Discussions under thread started by 12strings , "In Jesus Blood and Righteousness."

And as I said I have never seen this understanding anywhere. It is just my understanding and so far appears to jell with all scripture. Granted it can be picked at but upon study appears to hold up.

As I have said before first 39 years Presbyterian last 39 Southern Baptist.

High School Ed. Would not say well educated nor really well read.

You guys know a lot more than I.
 
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The Archangel

Well-Known Member
Imputation.

Post 7

And if you really are interested read my post in General Discussions under thread started by 12strings , "In Jesus Blood and Righteousness."

And as I said I have never seen this understanding anywhere. It is just my understanding and so far appears to jell with all scripture. Granted it can be picked at but upon study appears to hold up.

I'm sorry, but I neither understand what you are saying or what you are asking.

Please feel free to elaborate further.

The Archangel
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Benjamin
Hello Benjamin my friend:wavey: Good to hear from you ,glad to see you are enjoying so many good responses to your new thread!
I would like to help now ...also:love2:

Regarding Systematic Determinist’ traditions

I do not have this book on my bookshelf. Is this required reading?
of trying to force fit

The only thing someone is trying to force fit here ...is the non existing free will of the dead sinner....and a ....post selection election which only you Van and winman might hold to.

pre-selection election
,

Election is God's love before time for a multitude of sinners who were seen as dead in Adam. God did not have save any, He could have hosen only one.And yet according to His perfect plan has elected the exact number of sinners to save he refers to as ...THE ELECT. Sorry to have to use that word...but i find it in the bible a whole lot. I am so nervous and shy to type the word,lol:

it can clearly be seen that the scripture makes a clear “true” promise to ALL
Yes it does. my friend! Agreed. There is a true promise as Archangeland OR, has pointed out...to everyone believing ...the blessing of salvation...to those who remain in sin...the promise of the righteous judgement of God.
which is the exact opposite of the teaching of the “Doctrine of Forget Hope/Determinism”

Well that might be so.I know Muslims believe in fatalism. I have not met any Calvinists that hold to this idea..however. maybe this is why the brothers here keep reminding you that none of us believe this false idea...just a thought!
in that it shows all are offered grace on one real condition, “through faith”. (Eph 2:9) That condition (faith) is not and cannot be excluded from one being “chosen”.

here is part of where you drift off...God's grace is unconditional and it is always said to be....By or Through Faith......Never ,never ..because of faith.
look up.....dia pistaious...and dia pistin
Faith is an instumentality that is part of the salvation we are given,as is repentance.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(Eph 2:8)

yes..it is the gift of God!
Those who preach the doctrines of Calvinist/Determinist proclaim that you must be pre-elected

There are no such people...but I know what idea you are trying to express..But election has no pre-anything. Election was from everlasting:
The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

-
irresistibly, are unable to respond to God’s calling – totally, unless pre-determined to do so.
It is wonderful that God does not only seek, but has given us His oath, His covenant promise to seek and to save all the sheep!

Yet, when preaching the Gospel they generally exclude and avoid telling the masses what they believe to be true (They fail to be transparent in their preaching of Gospel
I know you know this is not true of me , my friend as you have called on me before to speak out on this:laugh: Whenever the situation lends itself to it, I will not hesitate to speak of any biblical doctrine in speaking evangelistically to a lost sinner. I find all 5 points are needed to answer questions raised in an in depth conversation about the soul.
many times the truths expressed by the 5 points stand out well against the mushy , milk toast begging and whimpering that goes on , rather than the full disclosure of scripture...Any time my friend.....just ask and I will gladly speak to anyone about such truths. If God revealed them , we should not go about to conceal them


as they believe it which to be forthcoming and honest would have to include telling the lost that they may have no hope
Any honest presentation of the gospel includes telling the lost that ...there is no hope...if they remain outside of Christ!

because of not being pre-selected for election.)
No because of being dead In Sin..having died in the first Adam

Like it or not, Determinists
,
If I meet one...i will relay your ideas to him


there is a condition to being saved by grace and that condition is FAITH
any condition , would make god a respector of persons,and a debtor to man .. which is a blaspemous thought
-
which must come from one’s own heart and everyone has that ability to respond
.

This is not the testimony of scripture;
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly

maybe you should get your understanding from the scriptures that speak about it,,instead of just making these wild claims!



This is a vital part of Gospel message

And you have it incorrect...so your message is defective at best.

and any attempt to cover it up or exclude it when telling the promises of God to ALL His creatures is what I would consider a deceitful practice by the Determinists.

Again, I will let them know...if i meet any of them

A practice which is rooted in and conditioned upon holding to the doctrines of Calvinism in which all parts (the TULIP) necessarily hinge on Determinism in any logical sense if it were to support their man-made philosophical rambling.


The only philosophical rambling going on is you, van,skan, winman,sometimes HOS,and WD....trying to laminate all your philosophical terms,and dispute words, debate fallacies, non sequitar this, begging the question that,.....all when you cannot answer scripturally:laugh:

They attempt to force fit interpretations of scriptures throughout to fit determinism
and call it “The Gospel”, the “Doctrines of Grace” while excluding that grace must come through faith which is a vital of the true Gospel which should include Doctrines of Grace through Faith.
here you continue chasing windmills,lol



This is an example of the message of grace through faith that I (A non-determinist) proclaim, the true Gospel promise to all God’s creatures:

(Rom 10:9) If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Every christian proclaims rom 10


Note: You is used 4 times in this verse. You'll be surprised by how much "you" there is in a book that supposedly says that we do nothing.
Calvinists also enjoy all the verses that say...YOU......we just understand that for everything that those spoken of by You are to do...God works in that person to enablem them to do what he requires. Like whem Jesus commanded the man with the withered hand...stretch forth thy hand...he enabled the man to do what he commanded...Then the man exercised the faith and ability given to him.

If he could do it on his own, we would not speak of him as the man with the withered hand.lol.

The deterministic view must force fit change the “you/your” faith which is spoken of throughout the Bible into Him/His grace while excluding what is clearly mandated to be from your/their faith from your/their own heart.
Again..if I see a determinist I will let him know how you feel.
God however gives a new heart to His elect, so they can obey...the old heart is made of stone and unable to respond.


stay tuned for part two....
 
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Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Benjamin

If the Determinist doesn’t “like” the idea that they or you have to respond from your/their own heart in faith I would suggest they take it to the Lord in prayer!!!


The Determinist focus is on grace alone and that is simply not Biblical.

I am truly concerned about a preference to leave the condition of one’s own free response of faith out of the salvific message all-together, whether it is for yourself or others.

It is as if those of the Determinist persuasion hate the fact that they would have to confess in faith from their own heart of their own free will
I will let them kniw , if I ever meet one!

and rather love to profess the message of darkness
:

Not sure what image of darkness troubles you Benjamin...it does sound like archangel said...morbid!

“This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.”
(1Jn 1:5)

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
(Joh 1:9)

These are really good verses, thanks for sharing them.

I ask honestly: Did the determinist have no choice? Did faith have to be determined upon them??? If so, I find this sad ,sad, sad; where is the love of the truth in that nonsensical determinist’ view which is clearly contrary to Romans 10:9 and 10 and the whole purpose of God in creating the world in love and revealing this Light to all in it what He did for us?

I will let you know when i ask them!


For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
(Rom 1:17-20)

There is true judgment in this matter:


yes..agreed...all men are fully responsible to God.



He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
(Deu 32:4)

Very nice
You must believe with your own heart to be justified
:

But being that men have hearts of stone, God gives a new heart to the elect!
Then they can trust and obey, for there is no other way...to be happy in Jesus

(
Rom 10:10) For a person believes with his heart and is justified, and a person declares with his mouth and is saved.

yes
Let’s be honest here Determinist!

:confused:

Whether you like it or not it is God's Doctrine of Grace 'through Faith" and that is a condition that should not be taken lightly or left out of the Gospel!

the biblical salvation places sinners in a a good condition , from the bad condition they were in.


Don’t take out the condition of faith from your doctrine, t

Faith is God given,so part of it.


You don’t know that you were specially pre-selected,

All who believe were elected by God.They cannot believe unless God allows them.
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
So are you asking: Does God believe for us?

The Archangel

Let me say another way. Above you addressed, "whosoever," as being ones believing.

I say we become, "ones believing," when called by Jesus and we are given the Holy Spirit. Why are we given the Holy Spirit? Paul asks, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal. 3:22-25 says, the faith they heard of, by which they received the Spirit had a moment in time when, the faith had not been revealed, the faith had not come, and the faith did come.

That moment in time was when Jesus was obedient unto death even the death of the cross.

The death, the shed blood, of Jesus was the faith.

The faith, which brought justification, by which the righteousness of God could be imputed, the faith which resulted in grace being given by which we can receive salvation.

You would have to study just a little the post's I showed to get the whole picture. Then you could tell me I'm nuts or agree or partly agree or whatever.
As I stated I just post my understanding of which I have never seen anywhere else.

I am just trying to be honest about where I am coming from.

Thanks for your replies.
 

Greektim

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure if anyone made this point yet, but did anyone else notice the non-sequitur of the OP title??? "Being chosen requires a response"??? Being chosen is a passive activity on the part of the one chosen. The word itself does not necessitate an active "acceptance". Being chosen by God is an activity he performs... not you.

Even if we were to misuse the concept of "election" to the modern day political process, choosing Romney for the Repub ticket and his acceptance are 2 separate issues. His choice for the bid is not dependent on his acceptance. The chosen part was already decided when he accepted.
 

Mexdeaf

New Member
I'm not sure if anyone made this point yet, but did anyone else notice the non-sequitur of the OP title??? "Being chosen requires a response"??? Being chosen is a passive activity on the part of the one chosen. The word itself does not necessitate an active "acceptance". Being chosen by God is an activity he performs... not you.

Even if we were to misuse the concept of "election" to the modern day political process, choosing Romney for the Repub ticket and his acceptance are 2 separate issues. His choice for the bid is not dependent on his acceptance. The chosen part was already decided when he accepted.

Just saw the title of this thread and I was thinking the exact same thing!
 

Benjamin

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
...I am by no means ignorant of critical thinking skills. I use my skills to interpret scripture and to see how scripture interprets itself. I do not use my skills to apply non-biblical definitions of things, like free will, over the text and then make the text subservient to my a priori ideas.

…The fact of the matter is that we do not explain the doctrine of election to unbelievers because it is not important to do so.

Talk about begging the question, so much for those critical thinking skills. Truth and transparency is not important?! You tell someone if they believe they will be saved while NOT telling them that you believe only the specially pre-selected few have been determined to be able to do so? Sounds like a half-truth at best and that’s being generous. Let me give you a simple lesson in critical thinking skills while you go about trying to force fit the philosophical Doctrines of Calvinism, which logically hinge on strict Determinism onto your theology: “T+F=T is in no way a logical truth”.
You are simply wrong. The Calvinist idea is that a response of faith comes freely from our own heart due to the influence of God, working through the Holy Spirit. That's it.
Freely from your own heart?! Maybe you are a closet Arminian…but SO much for the Calvinist doctrines of TULIP which all logically hinge on Determinism… Your debate on this matter is much like your presentation of the Gospel, you leave out important specific details which conflict your “Idea” and give a half-truth and say, “That’s it.”

The condition of faith from one's own heart? What you seem to be missing here is that we believe that faith must be exercised too.

But, you are aware of the the Bible says about the heart, right?

[5] The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
(Genesis 6:5 ESV)

[9] The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it? (Jeremiah 17:9 ESV)

You're saying that a deceitful-above-all-things and a only-evil-continually heart can produce the faith necessary for salvation? I think that's far stretch.
You bet I’m aware. it is clear that God is who understands the heart the man; this is why God sent the Holy Spirit to influence the heart, this is why the Son came and died to bring the Word into all the world and give light to everyman, this is why God genuinely offers a promise of grace to all His creatures upon the condition of faith, for love of the truth (that influence, that light, that truth that God is Love) that is revealed to them and this is why no man will have an excuse (Rom 1:20) when it comes the time of truth in judgment (Deut 32:4) because man has a “true” responsibility to respond to the light which is given them and without everyman having the true ability to respond all this becomes a lie except (according to the Calvinist/Determinist Doctrines) for the specially preselected few.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
(Rom 1:20)

He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
(Deu 32:4)

Seems to me Calvinism is what is making the stretch and goes goes to the point of breaking.

You accuse us of preaching a false gospel? Really?! You call the Calvinist gospel "a dark message of no hope." If this is true, which it isn't, then I would be saying your non-Calvinist, free-will gospel is a dark message of hope in one's self, which I am not.

As for the gospel...I suppose you preach "Salvation through grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone." This is exactly what the Calvinists preach.
If the Calvinist is true to their doctrine of pre-determinism and preaching their gospel then they will tell their “truth” that some aren’t given light. Is that not so?! Want an example of true Calvinist gospel preaching from one who got pinned down on this board to reveal the bottom line?:

Originally posted by Iconoclast:
6] If he tries to mock and scoff like those in 2 pet3...I do mention that God has not planned to save everyone, and unless God allows a sinner to repent and believe,,,they will die in their sins.......

If someone scoffs at me I still tell them the Gospel (Good News) that Jesus loves them. Can you? I can do that, honestly, and I can honestly tell them the offer of redemption has been genuinely given to them, that they can know the truth and that the love of the truth in this matter can set them free and “God will give them all they need to come to faith, ask for it from your heart”. I can back this (volitional ability) up scripturally from throughout the Bible and I leave them with no excuse, can you?

Will you make the same claim as Iconoclast? If not, why not if that is what you believe? Do you not see the difference between Good News and Bad News? Here is what the Bible says concerning a message of light and one of darkness, you and/or the reader figure the truth out about what your Doctrine of Calvinism/Determinism adds up to for yourself (As I'm sure my frank opinion of the Calvinist doctrine wouldn't be well recieved on this board):

“This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.”
(1Jn 1:5)

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
(Joh 1:9)
 
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Benjamin

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I'm not sure if anyone made this point yet, but did anyone else notice the non-sequitur of the OP title??? "Being chosen requires a response"???

You notice the title of this thread is a parady of the thread?:

You Are Chosen! Believe it or Not! Like it or Not!

Does anyone not see the deterministic factor in that title? My title pits creaturely volition against the doctrines of Determinism. Does anyone note that He left the "or Not!" off the "You are Chosen!" That title is typical of the masking used by Calvinist that hides the transparency that their doctrine, gospel message, amounts to and gives yet another example which is equal to saying the Good News is only for for the specially preselected few...Like it or Not!...Na Na Doo Doo if you're one of the unlucky ones that wasn't pre-chosen! :rolleyes: This message isn't for you! :tear:
 
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