Featured Being Chosen Requires a Response (Of Faith) from One’s Own Heart! Like it or Not!

You most certainly do misrepresent what we think. And you do so through simply human logic, not a logic that tries to attain a "whole Bible theology."

You simply state your definition of volitional free will as fact (begging the question, by the way). In doing so, you seem to want to arrange a false dichotomy wherein man's "free will" is at odds with God's sovereignty.

In every example, from the tame to the extreme, the creature's decisions are never based solely on the creature's volition, as some outside influence is always brought to bear.

By the way...here's a question for you: Do you pray that persons you know who are not believers, perhaps a friend, co-worker, or family member come to Christ?

I'm deeply moved. You demonstrate something other than loving your brothers and sisters when you take your false definition of what we believe and keep on trying to impose that false definition on us. This is a textbook definition of creating a strawman--you misrepresent our position by creating a false caricature and then you "fight" against the caricature.

I am by no means ignorant of critical thinking skills. I use my skills to interpret scripture and to see how scripture interprets itself. I do not use my skills to apply non-biblical definitions of things, like free will, over the text and then make the text subservient to my a priori ideas.

You accuse us of preaching a false gospel? Really?! You call the Calvinist gospel "a dark message of no hope." If this is true, which it isn't, then I would be saying your non-Calvinist, free-will gospel is a dark message of hope in one's self, which I am not.

As for the gospel...I suppose you preach "Salvation through grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone." This is exactly what the Calvinists preach.

The fact of the matter is that we do not explain the doctrine of election to unbelievers because it is not important to do so. Do you explain electrical theory and the principles of physics to your young children so they can turn on a light, or do you just tell them to flip the switch? Of course, it is the latter.

Furthermore, we preach the gospel indiscriminately. We have no idea who the elect are--which is a good thing. We do not base preaching the gospel or the subsequent resulting salvation resulting from a response of repentance and faith on election or lack thereof. We say that salvation--the response of repentance and faith--is the evidence of God's work in your life, up to and including election and exercising repentance and faith.

The condition of faith from one's own heart? What you seem to be missing here is that we believe that faith must be exercised too.

But, you are aware of the the Bible says about the heart, right?

[5] The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
(Genesis 6:5 ESV)

[9] The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it? (Jeremiah 17:9 ESV)​

You're saying that a deceitful-above-all-things and a only-evil-continually heart can produce the faith necessary for salvation? I think that's far stretch.

But, even if we grant that it is possible (which we do not), why can you not grant that we preach the necessity of a response of faith? If your father is a judge and issues a bench warrant because you owe $1,000 and you come before him in his court, does it really matter if you bring your own $1,000 to pay the debt or if he gives you the $1,000 to pay the debt. At the end of the day the debt is paid and the "requirement" is met.

Furthermore, if salvation is by God's grace alone, and therefore is something we do not deserve, why would it be a problem for God to supply the faith as well?

If grace is indeed "unmerited favor" the gift of faith is no problem. However, as you seem to want to argue, if God's salvation is the result of a proper response of one's own inherent faith, then grace becomes "merited favor" and is no longer "grace."

You are simply wrong. The Calvinist idea is that a response of faith comes freely from our own heart due to the influence of God, working through the Holy Spirit. That's it.

In our "economy" is the response of faith a result of the working of the Holy Spirit in the elect? Yes. But, as we are fond of saying, God makes the constitutionally unwilling willing.

Again, I would hope you would discuss with us based on what we say we believe, not your own caricature of us. As brothers and sisters in Christ, we, at the very least, deserve that measure of respect from you. That is, of course, unless you do not consider us brothers and sisters...but that is a different issue entirely.

The Archangel

 

I wanted to address this separately, since the issue may be different.

You are using the KJV here, right? Of course you're aware that "whosoever" is a wrong translation, right? The word (πιστεύων) is a participle. The phrase itself (πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων) is translated as "all the ones believing."

The word the KJV uses, whosoever, isn't there in the text. I suspect that you, along with countless others, use the word "whosoever" as a proof-text of sorts to support many things, including the idea that there is no such thing as election.

I'm interested to hear your response.

The Archangel

 

Albert Mohler used a very similar expression in his brotherly discussion with Paige Patterson of the Doctrines of Grace.

 

Well then, I guess my "apple" didn't fall far from his "tree." I am an alumnus of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, after all, having earned a Master of Divinity.

I guess the teaching worked!

The Archangel

 

I put in bold a part of your post and would like to post a couple of verses and ask a question.

And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; (By calling/choosing him even when he was en-route for the following.) Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief. 1 Tim 1:12.13


Would you agree with me that when Jesus calls one and gives the gift of the Holy Spirit to one, that one is moved/translated from a state of unbelief unto a state of belief, in other words he becomes a believer?

A person of faith.

 

Not necessarily. I do not think it is right to equate "the gift of the Holy Spirit" to "becoming a believer." But, I will admit, I tend to follow the Puritans on this. The Puritans thought in terms of periods of awakening. These periods resulted in true salvation, ultimately. But, the Puritans did not consider someone in an early period of awakening to necessarily be a true believer. Even Jonathan Edwards' own father questioned his (Jonathan's) salvation--and, if memory serves, this was after Edwards was already pastoring.

That the Holy Spirit does His work of regeneration is a given. However, that work having been begun, does not mean someone has become a believer at that instant. Now, the work having been begun does mean, at some point, the person will become a believer. I think it an important distinction to say the beginning of the Holy Spirit's work does not necessarily mean someone has been converted. After all, we tend to see conversion as evidence of the Holy Spirit's work having been going on, for a while or not, and we really have no idea when that work began.

The Archangel

 

I understand that my understanding of faith is different from anything you or I have ever read and I have not a clue where my understanding has come from, however I am sure all of you will have an answer for me.

I do ask for all to examine it against all scripture and let the chips fall where they may.

On both sides of the fence of the issue from those who post without a doubt both believe for salvation there has to some kind of response from the recipient.

But does it?

Look at the Old and New Covenant in Hebrews 8.

The old required a response from the people with which it was made and they failed in their response.

Under the New there is shown that God does it all. It is even stated that the people do not have to teach their neighbor because God is doing it all.

Does my understanding of the faith not do the very same thing?

 

The same concept is found in this statement.

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

One was not born because he responded to something and neither will he be born again or from above because he responded to something.

It will be an act of God.

 

So are you asking: Does God believe for us?

The Archangel

 

hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.


Well we are not told how many days he was with the disciples but we are told in another place that what he knew concerning the Christ he did not learn from men.

He definitely went from one to the other fast.

 

Imputation.

Post 7

And if you really are interested read my post in General Discussions under thread started by 12strings , "In Jesus Blood and Righteousness."

And as I said I have never seen this understanding anywhere. It is just my understanding and so far appears to jell with all scripture. Granted it can be picked at but upon study appears to hold up.

As I have said before first 39 years Presbyterian last 39 Southern Baptist.

High School Ed. Would not say well educated nor really well read.

You guys know a lot more than I.

 

I'm sorry, but I neither understand what you are saying or what you are asking.

Please feel free to elaborate further.

The Archangel

 

Benjamin
Hello Benjamin my friend:wavey: Good to hear from you ,glad to see you are enjoying so many good responses to your new thread!
I would like to help now ...also:love2:

I do not have this book on my bookshelf. Is this required reading?

The only thing someone is trying to force fit here ...is the non existing free will of the dead sinner....and a ....post selection election which only you Van and winman might hold to.

,

Election is God's love before time for a multitude of sinners who were seen as dead in Adam. God did not have save any, He could have hosen only one.And yet according to His perfect plan has elected the exact number of sinners to save he refers to as ...THE ELECT. Sorry to have to use that word...but i find it in the bible a whole lot. I am so nervous and shy to type the word,lol:

Yes it does. my friend! Agreed. There is a true promise as Archangeland OR, has pointed out...to everyone believing ...the blessing of salvation...to those who remain in sin...the promise of the righteous judgement of God.

Well that might be so.I know Muslims believe in fatalism. I have not met any Calvinists that hold to this idea..however. maybe this is why the brothers here keep reminding you that none of us believe this false idea...just a thought!

here is part of where you drift off...God's grace is unconditional and it is always said to be....By or Through Faith......Never ,never ..because of faith.
look up.....dia pistaious...and dia pistin
Faith is an instumentality that is part of the salvation we are given,as is repentance.

yes..it is the gift of God!

There are no such people...but I know what idea you are trying to express..But election has no pre-anything. Election was from everlasting:

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It is wonderful that God does not only seek, but has given us His oath, His covenant promise to seek and to save all the sheep!

I know you know this is not true of me , my friend as you have called on me before to speak out on this:laugh: Whenever the situation lends itself to it, I will not hesitate to speak of any biblical doctrine in speaking evangelistically to a lost sinner. I find all 5 points are needed to answer questions raised in an in depth conversation about the soul.
many times the truths expressed by the 5 points stand out well against the mushy , milk toast begging and whimpering that goes on , rather than the full disclosure of scripture...Any time my friend.....just ask and I will gladly speak to anyone about such truths. If God revealed them , we should not go about to conceal them

Any honest presentation of the gospel includes telling the lost that ...there is no hope...if they remain outside of Christ!

No because of being dead In Sin..having died in the first Adam

,
If I meet one...i will relay your ideas to him

any condition , would make god a respector of persons,and a debtor to man .. which is a blaspemous thought
-

.

This is not the testimony of scripture;
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly

maybe you should get your understanding from the scriptures that speak about it,,instead of just making these wild claims!

And you have it incorrect...so your message is defective at best.

Again, I will let them know...if i meet any of them

The only philosophical rambling going on is you, van,skan, winman,sometimes HOS,and WD....trying to laminate all your philosophical terms,and dispute words, debate fallacies, non sequitar this, begging the question that,.....all when you cannot answer scripturally:laugh:

here you continue chasing windmills,lol

Every christian proclaims rom 10

Calvinists also enjoy all the verses that say...YOU......we just understand that for everything that those spoken of by You are to do...God works in that person to enablem them to do what he requires. Like whem Jesus commanded the man with the withered hand...stretch forth thy hand...he enabled the man to do what he commanded...Then the man exercised the faith and ability given to him.

If he could do it on his own, we would not speak of him as the man with the withered hand.lol.

Again..if I see a determinist I will let him know how you feel.
God however gives a new heart to His elect, so they can obey...the old heart is made of stone and unable to respond.


stay tuned for part two....

 

Benjamin

I will let them kniw , if I ever meet one!

:

Not sure what image of darkness troubles you Benjamin...it does sound like archangel said...morbid!

These are really good verses, thanks for sharing them.

I will let you know when i ask them!

yes..agreed...all men are fully responsible to God.

Very nice

:

But being that men have hearts of stone, God gives a new heart to the elect!
Then they can trust and obey, for there is no other way...to be happy in Jesus
(

yes

Faith is God given,so part of it.

All who believe were elected by God.They cannot believe unless God allows them.

 

Let me say another way. Above you addressed, "whosoever," as being ones believing.

I say we become, "ones believing," when called by Jesus and we are given the Holy Spirit. Why are we given the Holy Spirit? Paul asks, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal. 3:22-25 says, the faith they heard of, by which they received the Spirit had a moment in time when, the faith had not been revealed, the faith had not come, and the faith did come.

That moment in time was when Jesus was obedient unto death even the death of the cross.

The death, the shed blood, of Jesus was the faith.

The faith, which brought justification, by which the righteousness of God could be imputed, the faith which resulted in grace being given by which we can receive salvation.

You would have to study just a little the post's I showed to get the whole picture. Then you could tell me I'm nuts or agree or partly agree or whatever.
As I stated I just post my understanding of which I have never seen anywhere else.

I am just trying to be honest about where I am coming from.

Thanks for your replies.

 

I'm not sure if anyone made this point yet, but did anyone else notice the non-sequitur of the OP title??? "Being chosen requires a response"??? Being chosen is a passive activity on the part of the one chosen. The word itself does not necessitate an active "acceptance". Being chosen by God is an activity he performs... not you.

Even if we were to misuse the concept of "election" to the modern day political process, choosing Romney for the Repub ticket and his acceptance are 2 separate issues. His choice for the bid is not dependent on his acceptance. The chosen part was already decided when he accepted.

 

Just saw the title of this thread and I was thinking the exact same thing!