Being Ignorant of God's Righteousness

[tyndale1946]

Well I was talking about other people. I achieved sinless perfection last Thursday.

Well Dave you better be on your game... Thursday is tomorrow!... Brother Glen

 

[Silverhair]

Which is every one for whom Christ died - God's elect.

"To say that God the Father has purposed the salvation of all mankind, that God the Son died with the express intention of saving the whole human race, and that God the Holy Spirit is now seeking to win the world to Christ; when, as a matter of common observation, it is apparent that the great majority of our fellowmen are dying in sin, and passing into a hopeless eternity; is to say that God the Father is disappointed, that God the Son is dissatisfied, and that God the Holy Spirit is defeated. We have stated the issue baldly, but there is no escaping the conclusion. To argue that God is “trying His best” to save all mankind, but that the majority of men will not let Him save them, is to insist that the will of the Creator is impotent, and that the will of the creature is omnipotent. To throw the blame, as many do, upon the Devil, does not remove the difficulty, for if Satan is defeating the purpose of God, then, Satan is Almighty and God is no longer the Supreme Being."

- excerpt from Arthur W. Pink's The Sovereignty of God

And they are one of the elect after they trust in Christ Jesus for their salvation. It seems you like to put the cart before the horse.
To say that God the Father desires all to come to repentance is biblical [1 Timothy 2:3-4], as is the atonement of the Son for all [1 Timothy 2:5-6], and finally we have the Holy Spirit that seals all those that trust in the finished work of Christ. [Ephesians 1:13]

While God the Father desires all to be saved He does not force anyone to be saved. Each person must make their own choice just as Christ says in [Mark 16:16] and which John restates [John 3:18].
Jesus came as a redeemer of lost souls and to be the propitiation for them.
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

As far as the love of God reaches the offer of salvation reaches also.
1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Mar 12:30 AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' This is the first commandment.
Mar 12:31 And the second, like it, is this: 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

Would we expect God to show less love for our neighbor than He expects us to show?

 

[KenH]

ach person must make their own choice

Then, by your own words, you do not believe that Christ completed salvation's work on the cross; you believe that man must finish the job for Him. That Christ alone is not sufficient to save a sinner.

Would we expect God to show less love for our neighbor than He expects us to show?

That is same argument that I hear from Christian universalists - folks that, consistently, believe that Christ paid the sin debt for ever person that has or will ever live - and believe that every person that has or will ever live will be saved in the ages to come.

Which makes me wonder, @Silverhair, are you a Christian universalist?

 

[KenH]

Ken I am starting to have serious concerns about your claim to be a Christian.

Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

 

[Silverhair]

Another point on this question of yours, @Silverhair, is that you trying to judge God and doing so based on your thought process and emotions as a mere creature, a mere worm. We don't set the standards for almighty God, the Potter. Almighty God, the Potter, sets the standards for us, the clay. You need to get that straight in your mind, as all of us mere creatures need to do.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Psalms 99:2 The LORD is great in Zion; And he is high above all the people.

Job 40:7-9 Gird up thy loins now like a man:
I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
Wilt thou also disannul my judgment?
Wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
Hast thou an arm like God?
Or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?

We should all do as Job said, "I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes." Job 42:6

Interpret the Bible Christologically, with Jesus Christ as the “touchstone” of biblical interpretation - because he is God incarnate and therefore above even The Bible as the supreme revelation of God.
Whatever in Scripture seems to conflict with God revealed in Jesus must be interpreted in light of God revealed in Jesus.
Roger E Olson Patheos.com

 

[KenH]

Interpret the Bible Christologically, with Jesus Christ as the “touchstone” of biblical interpretation

I agree. The Bible is all about Christ from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21.

 

[Silverhair]

Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

I am not judging you on whether you are weak in faith, I am asking you why you continue to deny scripture and dismiss the love of God for His creation and thus question His character?

But you did question my faith so would that not make you just a bit of a hypocrite in what you just posted?

 

[KenH]

@Silverhair, we do not agree on what the gospel is, what God's sovereignty is; we pretty much agree on very little. I really don't see any point in continuing to do this, do you?

Probably would be best for the peace of Baptist Board if we just go our separate ways on it and try to stay out of each other's way. If you want to keep butting heads, fine, but I think we have both mapped out our positions and now are just simply repeating our arguments over and over and over.

 

[Silverhair]

I agree. The Bible is all about Christ from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21.

Glad to hear that. Now why do you work so hard to dismiss what the bible says?

 

[DaveXR650]

If you want to keep butting heads,

Nonsense! Settle this like good Christian men of the old days.

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair, we do not agree on what the gospel is, what God's sovereignty is; we pretty much agree on very little. I really don't see any point in continuing to do this, do you?

Probably would be best for the peace of Baptist Board if we just go our separate ways on it and try to stay out of each other's way. If you want to keep butting heads, fine, but I think we have both mapped out our positions and now are just simply repeating our arguments over and over and over.

The Gospel
1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

Do you not agree that this is the gospel? If not then what do you think the gospel is?


And J.W. actually did a reasonable job of saying what Gods’ sovereignty is like.

God remains sovereign and in control without mind-controlling the mortals He created in His image. Moreover, God is free to allow for a measure of free will, and to bring into reality by this freedom the events He decreed from eternity past that are good, righteous, and holy. Dr. James White

Correct, we do not actually agree on many things. I disagree with your deterministic view of salvation as that view does not comport with the text of the bible. So while we will [I am sure] interact on BB from time to time I do not see us agreeing on the means of salvation.

 

[Silverhair]

Nonsense! Settle this like good Christian men of the old days.

This seems like a better method to settle this.

 

[KenH]

1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
1Co 15:4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

Do you not agree that this is the gospel?

Since you asked me a question, I will answer you.

Yes, it is clear from the Scriptures that Christ fulfilled the law on behalf of God's elect, that Christ died and paid the sin debt of God's elect, that Christ was buried, and that Christ rose again.

 

[JonC]

Nonsense! Settle this like good Christian men of the old days.

 

[Silverhair]

Since you asked me a question, I will answer you.

Yes, it is clear from the Scriptures that Christ fulfilled the law on behalf of God's elect, that Christ died and paid the sin debt of God's elect, that Christ was buried, and that Christ rose again.

You keep insisting that Christ only died and paid the sin debt for the elect but that is not biblical.

God desires all to be saved
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Jesus Christ paid the sin debt for all
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

You continue to deny clear scripture. Why do you insist on holding onto your errant theology.

 

[Dave G]

As Heb 11:1 says "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Abel trusted in the God of His parents and was made/declared righteous. He became righteous because of his faith.

It appears to me that you've missed it, Silverhair.
I agree, faith is not a work...Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
It is not the means that a person is eternally saved by, but is instead the evidence of God's having saved someone.

Abel was made righteous, and his faith was the evidence of things not seen...
God's work in him.
He was not made righteous because of His faith, but showed the work of God's grace in his life by His faith.

That was the substance and evidence.

Romans 4 and Romans 5 do not describe a person whom God has made an agreement with in order to save them;
They describe a person to whom faith was given, and who exercised that God-given faith, just as, for example, Hebrews 11 shows.

We cannot, in and of ourselves, please Him.
But it does please Him to accomplish His work in and through a person, and He favorably regards the work of only one Person...
His Son.

In other words,
Imputed righteousness is what believers have, not earned righteousness that was paid for by an act of faith.

That's not "Calvinism", that is God's word.

 

[DaveXR650]

Imputed righteousness is what believers have, not earned righteousness that was paid for by an act of faith.

I guess I would ask a person why they believed and specifically why THEY believed as opposed to other people who have not believed. If you think you were smarter or better than others you need more Bible study. But most people I hope would say that they realized their need or felt conviction for sin, or for the first time realized what Jesus had done for them and so forth. If that is the case, and they have a proper understanding of what faith is, then it simply cannot be a work. They may not be versed in reformed terminology or they may not buy into it. There is a tendency by reformed people to make salvation mechanistic and so deterministic that it is easily misunderstood.

"he grants us the will to believe and faith itself, not mechanically or magically, but inwardly, spiritually, organically, in connection with the word that he brings to people in various ways". Herman Bavinck

Just as someone with a reformed background recoils automatically when someone says they are saved because they believed, a person with a non-reformed background is offended when someone calls their faith a work and with a stroke of the pen dismisses the very core of their salvation. Understood correctly, saying that you had to believe or that faith was the condition for justification or the instrumental cause of justification goes no further than the WCF or the Puritans.

 

[Silverhair]

It appears to me that you've missed it, Silverhair.
I agree, faith is not a work...Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
It is not the means that a person is eternally saved by, but is instead the evidence of God's having saved someone.

Abel was made righteous, and his faith was the evidence of things not seen...
God's work in him.
He was not made righteous because of His faith, but showed the work of God's grace in his life by His faith.

That was the substance and evidence.

Romans 4 and Romans 5 do not describe a person whom God has made an agreement with in order to save them;
They describe a person to whom faith was given, and who exercised that God-given faith, just as, for example, Hebrews 11 shows.

We cannot, in and of ourselves, please Him.
But it does please Him to accomplish His work in and through a person, and He favorably regards the work of only one Person...
His Son.

In other words,
Imputed righteousness is what believers have, not earned righteousness that was paid for by an act of faith.

That's not "Calvinism", that is God's word.

Dave G I understand that it offends you that God does not save people according to your calvinistic view. But the bible was not written by calvinists so you should not expect it to follow your theology.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice...
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death...
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen...
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place...

Do you happen to notice a pattern here. You are reading into the text what you want to find and so you find it but you are not trusting what the bible says. You do not trust the Holy Spirit to actually know what He intended to say.

Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

How much clearer could the Holy Spirit have made it?

Gods' word is not calvinism but what you attempted to put forward in your post was not biblical but it was calvinism.

 

[Silverhair]

I guess I would ask a person why they believed and specifically why THEY believed as opposed to other people who have not believed. If you think you were smarter or better than others you need more Bible study. But most people I hope would say that they realized their need or felt conviction for sin, or for the first time realized what Jesus had done for them and so forth. If that is the case, and they have a proper understanding of what faith is, then it simply cannot be a work. They may not be versed in reformed terminology or they may not buy into it. There is a tendency by reformed people to make salvation mechanistic and so deterministic that it is easily misunderstood.

"he grants us the will to believe and faith itself, not mechanically or magically, but inwardly, spiritually, organically, in connection with the word that he brings to people in various ways". Herman Bavinck

Just as someone with a reformed background recoils automatically when someone says they are saved because they believed, a person with a non-reformed background is offended when someone calls their faith a work and with a stroke of the pen dismisses the very core of their salvation. Understood correctly, saying that you had to believe or that faith was the condition for justification or the instrumental cause of justification goes no further than the WCF or the Puritans.

Dave XR650 I can agree with much of what you have said but I run into a problem when you say God has to grant faith. If He has to grant faith then it is not you that believes but God and if it is God that gives the faith to believe then all those that He does not give that faith actually have a valid excuse as to why they did not trust in His son, God did not give them the necessary faith so as to believe. So the question becomes why are they condemned for not believing in His son.

As Christ said He is the only way to the Father,

Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

and if that way is closed of then what?

 

[DaveXR650]

Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

and if that way is closed of then what?

What I am saying is that any Calvinist that says the way is closed is going against the giants of Calvinistic theology unless they are talking about someone who has sinned against the Holy Spirit. But I believe there must be actual supernatural work done to a person or they will never come to faith in Christ. We are talking about living beings so I think sometimes Calvinist theologians describe it in mechanical terms that frankly don't help. It's not a magic wand or like putting a new bulb in a lamp but it is real.

I would ask you directly. Why exactly did you decide to believe? It's not a set up or a trick question. Most non-Calvinist believers I know will immediately say they were under conviction or it suddenly all made sense to them or they could see themselves as they really were before God or something that indicates a supernatural work on their souls - without which they would not have believed.

But even if you say that faith comes by hearing the Word and nothing more supernatural than that is involved I myself do not agree with other Calvinists like Sproul who say you are "barely saved" or not really a Christian. Assuming that you really have saving faith - in the proper and purest definition it cannot be a work. But I would disagree on how you got it.