Being Ignorant of God's Righteousness

[Silverhair]

What I am saying is that any Calvinist that says the way is closed is going against the giants of Calvinistic theology unless they are talking about someone who has sinned against the Holy Spirit. But I believe there must be actual supernatural work done to a person or they will never come to faith in Christ. We are talking about living beings so I think sometimes Calvinist theologians describe it in mechanical terms that frankly don't help. It's not a magic wand or like putting a new bulb in a lamp but it is real.

I would ask you directly. Why exactly did you decide to believe? It's not a set up or a trick question. Most non-Calvinist believers I know will immediately say they were under conviction or it suddenly all made sense to them or they could see themselves as they really were before God or something that indicates a supernatural work on their souls - without which they would not have believed.

But even if you say that faith comes by hearing the Word and nothing more supernatural than that is involved I myself do not agree with other Calvinists like Sproul who say you are "barely saved" or not really a Christian. Assuming that you really have saving faith - in the proper and purest definition it cannot be a work. But I would disagree on how you got it.

I strongly believe that the grace of God [the drawing of God if you will] is present in His creation, conviction of the Holy Spirit [conscience] the word of God spoken etc. God has given all men the ability to think and make real choices. God has said He reaches out all day long to stubborn people. And I was very stubborn. I read a lot asked a lot of questions and got to the point that the truth could not be denied. Was that a work on my part? Well for most calvinists they would say yes. But I look at those that say it just happened and say then you have not thought it through.

One thing I have found over the years is that God does not draw all people to Himself in the same way. For some it is emotion for others it is intellect. It just happened to be for me it was through study.

I have read some of Sproul and he was a smart man but some of his comments like "barely saved" made him look foolish and arrogant.

 

[DaveXR650]

But I look at those that say it just happened and say then you have not thought it through.

I heard a testimony of a former Moslem who was praying out a window the Lord's Prayer in a mocking fashion when he suddenly came under conviction, began weeping, and repented and became a believer right there. He had been learning catechisms and scripture to practice his English while he was staying with friends and up until that moment thought the whole thing was somewhat of a joke. Sometimes it just happens. Other times it is after much study and wrestling with different issues. The precise way it happens with each individual is not always the same. Jonathan Edwards talked a lot about this and warned people that if you have any feeling of conviction or experience any light or understanding of the gospel, respond immediately because this is the work of the Holy Spirit and God is sovereign in this. If you ignore it you may never feel this conviction or see this light again.

I don't have a high church background and so have no special allegiance to a certain creed. Sometimes Calvinists make things seem too deterministic and mechanical. But, if you lean towards free will you need to understand that no one will come to Christ without the Holy Spirit. And if you describe the gospel as God laying out the new terms and you are simply responsible to come or not come whenever you make the decision to do so then you are making a far worse mistake in explaining what happens when someone gets saved than any Calvinist. You almost have to read Calvinist sermons to get this because it is very hard to express properly in a quick argument on the internet.

 

[KenH]

If you ignore it you may never feel this conviction or see this light again.

Christ will have all of those for whom He was their substitute, for whom He paid their sins.

Psalms 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

 

[Silverhair]

I heard a testimony of a former Moslem who was praying out a window the Lord's Prayer in a mocking fashion when he suddenly came under conviction, began weeping, and repented and became a believer right there. He had been learning catechisms and scripture to practice his English while he was staying with friends and up until that moment thought the whole thing was somewhat of a joke. Sometimes it just happens. Other times it is after much study and wrestling with different issues. The precise way it happens with each individual is not always the same. Jonathan Edwards talked a lot about this and warned people that if you have any feeling of conviction or experience any light or understanding of the gospel, respond immediately because this is the work of the Holy Spirit and God is sovereign in this. If you ignore it you may never feel this conviction or see this light again.

I don't have a high church background and so have no special allegiance to a certain creed. Sometimes Calvinists make things seem too deterministic and mechanical. But, if you lean towards free will you need to understand that no one will come to Christ without the Holy Spirit. And if you describe the gospel as God laying out the new terms and you are simply responsible to come or not come whenever you make the decision to do so then you are making a far worse mistake in explaining what happens when someone gets saved than any Calvinist. You almost have to read Calvinist sermons to get this because it is very hard to express properly in a quick argument on the internet.

I do not think you and I are that far apart in how we understand salvation. What I do not agree with is the idea that God has cavinisticly pick out a select group to be saved and has condemned the rest to hell just because He can. That idea destroys the character of God and makes a shambles of the love He has for His creation that He desires to come to Him.

 

[DaveXR650]

I do not think you and I are that far apart in how we understand salvation. What I do not agree with is the idea that God has cavinisticly pick out a select group to be saved and has condemned the rest to hell just because He can. That idea destroys the character of God and makes a shambles of the love He has for His creation that He desires to come to Him.

We know that not everyone gets saved. Not all hear a clear gospel message. Some grow up in mind warping cruelty. Some never hear the name of Jesus in their whole lives. So the fairness argument goes against not just Calvinism but every theology. We can observe it's not fair.

We also believe all are sinners and all are guilty. Given these things that we cannot reconcile if we're honest; what Calvinism does is bow to God and give him maximum honor. So you have a system where some of us were chosen not randomly by chance but not by anything good in us either. Our only reaction should be gratitude - anything else is a horrible sin. We still are at a loss to explain why some were saved and others weren't but it has to be either up to God's sovereignty, or to some cause in man. I sometimes feel we might be sinning even by sitting around and discussing God's thought processes.

But on the other hand, I know a lot of folks who aren't Calvinist but they confine all this to the fact they they at one point understood the gospel message they heard and they responded. They leave it at that and don't try to put the Almighty under a microscope and figure out his motives and risk getting it wrong and blaspheming. They instead focus on living the Pilgrim life and getting others to come along with them if possible. To me, they are far better Christians, and are superior to us amateur theologians.

 

[Silverhair]

We know that not everyone gets saved. Not all hear a clear gospel message. Some grow up in mind warping cruelty. Some never hear the name of Jesus in their whole lives. So the fairness argument goes against not just Calvinism but every theology. We can observe it's not fair.

We also believe all are sinners and all are guilty. Given these things that we cannot reconcile if we're honest; what Calvinism does is bow to God and give him maximum honor. So you have a system where some of us were chosen not randomly by chance but not by anything good in us either. Our only reaction should be gratitude - anything else is a horrible sin. We still are at a loss to explain why some were saved and others weren't but it has to be either up to God's sovereignty, or to some cause in man. I sometimes feel we might be sinning even by sitting around and discussing God's thought processes.

But on the other hand, I know a lot of folks who aren't Calvinist but they confine all this to the fact they they at one point understood the gospel message they heard and they responded. They leave it at that and don't try to put the Almighty under a microscope and figure out his motives and risk getting it wrong and blaspheming. They instead focus on living the Pilgrim life and getting others to come along with them if possible. To me, they are far better Christians, and are superior to us amateur theologians.

While I would fit into the "at one point understood the gospel message they heard and they responded" group I do not consider myself as a better Christian but rather just a saved sinner.

 

[AustinC]

While I would fit into the "at one point understood the gospel message they heard and they responded" group I do not consider myself as a better Christian but rather just a saved sinner.

That's precisely because your understanding did not come from you. In your own statement you testify to God being the cause and your response being the effect.

 

[Dave G]

Dave G I understand that it offends you that God does not save people according to your calvinistic view.

I'm not offended at all, sir.
God saves according to what He has said, not according to how I want Him to.

But the bible was not written by calvinists so you should not expect it to follow your theology.

I agree.
The Bible was written by men who were inspired by God...in other words, it was written by Him.

As for my theology, I get that just by reading it and believing what it alone says.

 

[Dave G]

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as [in] a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
for he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker [is] God. " ( Hebrews 11:1-10 ).

Do you happen to notice a pattern here. You are reading into the text what you want to find and so you find it but you are not trusting what the bible says. You do not trust the Holy Spirit to actually know what He intended to say.

Do you notice a pattern in the Scriptures above?

The faith that is the substance of things hoped, for, the evidence of things not seen...
That with it, many did things that pleased God?
But without it God is not pleased?

How does one get that faith?
How does one please God outside of the only thing that He does regard, the perfect efforts of His Son?

It's a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ), Silverhair...just as Hebrews 11:4 tells us;
A gift, authored ( initiated ) and finished ( perfected ) by His Son ( Hebrews 12:2 ).
It's not something that we as believers in Jesus Christ "will up" in order to get God to save us and do things through us and for us.


That said, I wish you well, and my hope is that through your continuing studies in His precious word, you begin to see the many things that He has shown me in the 44+ years since He called me into the fellowship of His saints in 1978...
One of which is that my salvation was through His grace alone ( of which His gift of faith is part of ), not of works lest I should boast.


May His unmerited blessings and gifts be deeply realized and cherished by all who read this.

 

[KenH]

It's not something that we as believers in Jesus Christ "will up" in order to get God to save us and do things through us and for us.

Amen!

 

[Silverhair]

I'm not offended at all, sir.
God saves according to what He has said, not according to how I want Him to.

I agree.
The Bible was written by men who were inspired by God...in other words, it was written by Him.

As for my theology, I get that just by reading it and believing what it alone says.

I am glad to see that you agree that God saves according to what He has said. He has said that He will save those that trust in His son. Those would be the ones that hear the gospel and believe the gospel.

 

[Silverhair]

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as [in] a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
for he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker [is] God. " ( Hebrews 11:1-10 ).



Do you notice a pattern in the Scriptures above?

The faith that is the substance of things hoped, for, the evidence of things not seen...
That with it, many did things that pleased God?
But without it God is not pleased?

How does one get that faith?
How does one please God outside of the only thing that He does regard, the perfect efforts of His Son?

It's a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ), Silverhair...just as Hebrews 11:4 tells us;
A gift, authored ( initiated ) and finished ( perfected ) by His Son ( Hebrews 12:2 ).
It's not something that we as believers in Jesus Christ "will up" in order to get God to save us and do things through us and for us.


That said, I wish you well, and my hope is that through your continuing studies in His precious word, you begin to see the many things that He has shown me in the 44+ years since He called me into the fellowship of His saints in 1978...
One of which is that my salvation was through His grace alone ( of which His gift of faith is part of ), not of works lest I should boast.


May His unmerited blessings and gifts be deeply realized and cherished by all who read this.

Dave you asked "How does one get that faith?" that is by the word of God. [Romans 10:17] Faith is not a gift salvation is the gift of God to those that believe. [Ephesians 1:13] God reaches out to us through His creation, the conviction of the Holy Spirit, the gospel message etc. The idea that God has to give you faith so you can believe in Him is a calvinist concept not found in scripture.

You say you have learned over 44+ years what you hold to now. But I would submit that what you hold to is not from the bible but rather what some men have told you that the bible says. I encourage you to continue to study but stick to the bible not waht other people tell you should believe.

 

[DaveXR650]

Q72 What is Justifying Faith?
Justifying faith is a saving grace, wrought in the heart of a sinner by the Spirit and Word of God, whereby he, being convinced of his sin and misery, and of the disability of himself and all other creatures to recover him out of his lost condition, not only assenteth to the truth of the promise of the gospel, but receiveth and resteth upon Christ and his righteousness....
WCF Catechism

The "gift" of faith does not mean a magic wand was used. The reformers knew that humans have wills and minds. Notice that the Holy Spirit and the Word are used above, just like you said. But because you could not have arrived at the place of "being convinced of his sin and misery" by yourself they called it a gift. I think they were right. Notice also that the sinner is the one who "assenteth, reveiveth, an resteth on the truth of the gospel.

 

[Silverhair]

Q72 What is Justifying Faith?
Justifying faith is a saving grace, wrought in the heart of a sinner by the Spirit and Word of God, whereby he, being convinced of his sin and misery, and of the disability of himself and all other creatures to recover him out of his lost condition, not only assenteth to the truth of the promise of the gospel, but receiveth and resteth upon Christ and his righteousness....
WCF Catechism

The "gift" of faith does not mean a magic wand was used. The reformers knew that humans have wills and minds. Notice that the Holy Spirit and the Word are used above, just like you said. But because you could not have arrived at the place of "being convinced of his sin and misery" by yourself they called it a gift. I think they were right. Notice also that the sinner is the one who "assenteth, reveiveth, an resteth on the truth of the gospel.

Just as you said man has a free will by which he either accepts or rejects the drawing of God. To call the faith that the person has a gift of God requires that logically you call the rejection also a gift of God. It is the same action of the Holy Spirit in conviction that the person accepts or rejects. If you say that only the faith to believe is a gift of God then you have now moved it from being a gift to being something that is forced upon a person as they can not refuse to accept it.

When you say "But because you could not have arrived at the place of "being convinced of his sin and misery" by yourself they called it a gift." you betray the calvinist view of determinism. What you deny is exactly what God in His word requires man to do. Learn through His creation, be convicted , hear the gospel and believe or reject what you know. These are thinks man does they are not done to him or for him. We are saved by the grace of God because we believe not so that we will believe.

 

[DaveXR650]

To call the faith that the person has a gift of God requires that logically you call the rejection also a gift of God. It is the same action of the Holy Spirit in conviction that the person accepts or rejects.

This would be true except the tendency to reject and all the tendency toward selfishness and sin is already our default and natural position and attitude which taints all our free will choices. All of this starts with an understanding that we are not born neutral but we have a bent toward sin and as soon as we can we begin to sin in various ways based on our abilities and opportunities. If God truly leaves us to our wills we will be lost.

When you say "But because you could not have arrived at the place of "being convinced of his sin and misery" by yourself they called it a gift." you betray the calvinist view of determinism.

That cannot be the case because it's a direct quote from the Westminster Confession of Faith, Larger Catechism. But it is true I think that the Calvinistic view of an extreme determinism, where God directly causes himself, every single thing that happens, is a newer development and goes beyond the Puritan Calvinism in the WCF. And some on this site do have that view and they despise me because I don't.

 

[Silverhair]

This would be true except the tendency to reject and all the tendency toward selfishness and sin is already our default and natural position and attitude which taints all our free will choices. All of this starts with an understanding that we are not born neutral but we have a bent toward sin and as soon as we can we begin to sin in various ways based on our abilities and opportunities. If God truly leaves us to our wills we will be lost.

That cannot be the case because it's a direct quote from the Westminster Confession of Faith, Larger Catechism. But it is true I think that the Calvinistic view of an extreme determinism, where God directly causes himself, every single thing that happens, is a newer development and goes beyond the Puritan Calvinism in the WCF. And some on this site do have that view and they despise me because I don't.

Dave you are overlooking the fact that God has given man the ability to think and evaluate information. Man can know what is right and what is wrong. [Genesis 3:22] When you say man can only think one way then it is not the bible you are following rather it is calvinism. Calvinism has taught you to think that way not the bible.

Dave while you state that man cannot repent we find the word of God stating the exact opposite. In [Acts of the Apostles 17:30] we find that God commands all men everywhere to repent, and that having so commanded, He expects they can and will. John gave as his reason for writing his gospel, "that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God: and that believing ye might have life through His name." [John 20:31] It is very clear that believing comes first and the new birth follows. We see this again written by Paul in [Acts of the Apostles 16:30-31] and again in [Ephesians 1:13]. Man has to respond to the gospel message.

The WCF is not the authority, the bible is. We should start with the bible and trust what it says, since the WCF does not agree with the bible then the WCF is to be discarded

 

[DaveXR650]

Dave you are overlooking the fact that God has given man the ability to think and evaluate information. Man can know what is right and what is wrong. [Genesis 3:22] When you say man can only think one way then it is not the bible you are following rather it is calvinism. Calvinism has taught you to think that way not the bible.

You might be right. But we'll have to just disagree. There are scriptures that point in both directions, which is why people go back and forth on here and elsewhere continuously. And most Calvinist theologians believed that everything we do is done using our minds and wills. That's one reason ( I think it was Spurgeon but I'm not sure ) who said we are all saved as Arminians. But scripture does say some truths are supernaturally revealed. When Jesus said "Who do you say that I am?" and Peter answered Jesus did not say "Good job figuring that out, now move to the head of the class". He said that flesh and blood did not reveal that to him.

And the WCF is not scripture so reject it if you like. My only intention there was to show that the Calvinist viewpoint on how faith is wrought in a believer is explained by that section as more than just an instant zap of a magic wand. And if I quote the WCF, while it is not as authoritative as scripture it is authoritative as representing mainstream Calvinism.

 

[Silverhair]

You might be right. But we'll have to just disagree. There are scriptures that point in both directions, which is why people go back and forth on here and elsewhere continuously. And most Calvinist theologians believed that everything we do is done using our minds and wills. That's one reason ( I think it was Spurgeon but I'm not sure ) who said we are all saved as Arminians. But scripture does say some truths are supernaturally revealed. When Jesus said "Who do you say that I am?" and Peter answered Jesus did not say "Good job figuring that out, now move to the head of the class". He said that flesh and blood did not reveal that to him.

And the WCF is not scripture so reject it if you like. My only intention there was to show that the Calvinist viewpoint on how faith is wrought in a believer is explained by that section as more than just an instant zap of a magic wand. And if I quote the WCF, while it is not as authoritative as scripture it is authoritative as representing mainstream Calvinism.

I think you are right on the Spurgeon comment. Yes some information is revealed supernaturally but I think to many people think that is to only way it happens. So while we will have different views on the WCF or LBCF as I said before I think we are much closer in our thinking then what may come through in our comments.

I consider myself fortunate that I had never heard of this Calvinism vs Arminianism battle until about 10 yrs ago. I came from a baptist background that just trusted the bible as written. So for me it has always been bible first, last and always.

 

[KenH]

( I think it was Spurgeon but I'm not sure ) who said we are all saved as Arminians.

There is no salvation in Pelagianism, nor in Semi-Pelagianism(Arminianism), nor in Calvinism, nor in any other "ism" that man has devised to organized his thinking about the Bible. There is salvation only by the sovereign grace of God in Christ and in His perfect righteousness on behalf of God's elect.

Acts of the Apostles 4:11-12 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

 

[DaveXR650]

Ken. This is an example of why people get so fired up on here. If my quote is correct (and it might not have been Spurgeon) he was not trying to say that Arminianism saved him. What he meant was that in his consciousness of what happened when he came to Christ was that it seemed to him that he came to Christ. Or he decided to believe. Then, looking back and learning more about salvation and scripture, he started realizing that something more had happened than just his decision. When he started asking why he believed he concluded that an external action of the Holy Spirit was responsible.

That's why it is correct to sing the song "I have decided to follow Jesus". You really did. But you can still give all credit to the work of God in causing this.