Originally posted by bmerr:
DHK,
[qb]Take as you will. The COC teaches false doctrine, as does the Catholic Church and the Oneness Pentecostal. They all teach baptismal regeneration, which is a damnable heresy. Any teacher of baptismal regeneraton is a false teacher. I ust included more than one in five of the world's population. So how can you say that I am pointing deliberately at you?bmerr here. And yet again, you condemn me as a false teacher. As far as parapelegics and the infirm are concerned, they'd probably make a special effort to be baptized if they were taught what the Bible says about it, instead of what some men have reduced it to.
I do believe in salvation by grace through faith. Eph 2:8, 9 affirms it for me. I do not believe in salvation by "grace alone through faith alone", since that is not what the Bible says. Man has come along and inserted "alone" into many passages, perhaps not to the actual text, but to his understanding of it. To do so is to depart from the doctrine of Christ (2 John 9-11).
For one that believes in baptismal regeneration it is impossible for them to say at the same time (as you do) "I do believe in salvation by grace through faith." Quite frankly it is a lie. If it isn't then please explain what Paul said:
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Baptism is a work. Can you prove otherwise using both Scipture and a dicitonary. I don't believe you can. If it a work, then so is your salvation, and your former statement is a lie. Your salvation is a works salvation which is another gospel according to Paul. Paul said that those who preached another gospel are accursed.
I would expect an honest answer to a sincere question, but that was not the case was it. You did not confine your answer to the question that I asked. You went much farther, then the parameters of the question that I asked. In fact you went way outside the parmaeters of not only the question, but the rules of BB board, of which you full well know much better than that. Again I tell you: don't be so naive. It won't work.As far as my answer to your question, what answer did you think would be given? Really, I'd like to know. What did you think the response would be to your question. If one were to simply allow the pattern of conversion in the NT be his guide, the answer would be just as I gave it.
And that is exactly what happens when you take your theology from a history book instead of a doctrinal book like the book of Romans. I say again, you cannot develop doctrine solely based on people's experiences. You are no better than the Oneness Pentecostals, the Charismatics, and many other groups when you do that. Your theology becomes based on experience rather than your experience coming as a result of Bible-based theology. And that is exactly what you have. There is no command in the Scripture that specifies a time limit between the time limit between salvation and baptism. If there is, find it for me. There is no Scripture that teaches one is saved by baptism except in the imagination of your own mind because of the preconceived ideas implanted into your own mind by the indoctrination of the COC.The longest delay between one's belief and one's baptism is recorded for us in Acts 9. There we find that Paul waited three days, (which were spent in prayer and fasting), to be told what the Lord said he "must do" (9:6). We find later that he was told he must "Arise, and be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:16).
This is your opinion based on your imagination, and not Scripture. It is heresy at the most, and unbiblical doctrine at the least. Paul testified many times that he was saved when he heard the heavenly voice. He was saved when he called on Jesus as Lord; when he said, "Lord what will you have me to do?" No man could say that to Christ without having being saved first. Consider Paul's background. Baptism had absolutely nothing to do with his salvation. You contradict Scripture if you say that it did.For those three days between his belief and his baptism, Paul was still in his sins, and therefore, still lost. It was in baptism that Paul called upon the name of the Lord and his sins were washed away by the blood of Christ.
The baptism wasn't important to Paul's salvation. He was already saved. As a believer he obeyed the commandment of Christ and was baptized (as a beleiver in Christ--which he already was).Now I'm sure you still don't agree with any of this, but one thing is certain: Paul was told that he must be baptized, and he was told what baptism was for. His three day separation between faith and baptism is the longest recorded lapse in the Bible. Everyone else was baptized immediately. The importance of baptism was taught by the early church, including Paul.
Yes yuu are right. They are both works. If you read Romans 4, Paul calls the offering of Isaac a work. Abraham was justified by faith without doing any acts of obedience whatsoever. He believed God, and it was accounted unto him for righteousness sake. The qualification that he had to be righteousnewss sake, the Scripture says, was faith and faith alone. He was justified soley by faith. Works had no part in it. And of course that inclueded baptism.Baptism is not a work of merit, any more than Abraham offering Isaac was. It's just something God commands us to do in order to receive the forgiveness of sins.
Submitting to baptism is how one obeys the gospel (2 Thes 1:8). It has a purpose, and a method. It is in the authority of Christ. It is commanded under the New Testament. It is a commandment of God. If we love Him, it will not be burdensome (1 John 5:3).[/quote
Not true. One obeys the gospel by believeing the gospel, and trusting Christ as Saviour. Any other gospel is a false gospel, which the COC teaches.
God requires obedience in many things: prayer, fellowship, witnessing, study of the Bible, meditation of the Word, fasting, monetarily giving (such as tithing), etc. But are all these requred for salvation. No! Absolutely not! Obedience to Christ comes after salvation, not as a part of salvation.Obedience to God requires that we do what He says, in the way that He says, for the reason He says. Anything short of that is just doing what we want to do.
If I have things wrong then you have to demonstrate things through Scripture. Every Scripture you have "demonstrated" so-called has been amply refuted not only by me, but by others as well. There is no cause for name-calling, and putting into different words the actual phrase that you seemed to want to use: "Damn You!" for that is what it really mean, wasn't it? Saying that a person is lost is the polite way of saying the same thing carnally.Look, we both understand that it's easy to get riled up when discussing these matters. Contrary to what you thought, I was not angry when I wrote the offensive post. I got no pleasure from it at all. I am simply concerned for you. You have a great zeal and passion for Christ, and a strong sense of duty toward those of like faith. None of this can be denied by anyone who skims over these boards. You are to be commended for these attributes.
I just think you've got some things wrong, that's all. I too, have a duty to help others see the truth as best I can. I'm sorry my attention to this duty seemed like a personal attack. It wouldn't be the first time I sounded more harsh than I intended.
DHK
[ August 01, 2005, 04:54 AM: Message edited by: DHK ]
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believe, belief, faith, believe "in"
- Thread starter billwald
- Start date
DHK,
bmerr here. You said,
The Bible says that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Tim 3:16).
The Bible also tells us that "...all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come" (1 Cor 10:11).
Are you sure that no man could call Jesus Lord and still be lost? Jesus said that "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matt 7:21-23).
Paul was still in his sins when Ananias came to him. He was still lost, though he believed.
You seem not to believe that obedience has anything to do with salvation, but the Bible says of Christ, "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Heb 5:8, 9).
You can't have Biblical faith apart from obedience, sir.
Also, the Bible does teach that continued faithfulness is required if one is to be saved in the end. 2 Pet 1:5-10 reads,
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the father, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
As for showing you your error, you have refuted none of it, but simply argued form the position that is in question, taken words out of their context to try and prove a point (ie. baptism--NOT), and in many other ways distorted the Scriptures to match your own preconcieved notions about what they MUST mean.
We can go through it all again, if you want to.
In fact, here's one of the things that has been covered already, but I don't mind going over it again.
Abraham's justification by faith. Remember that both Paul and James use Abraham as an example to demonstrate their position. Paul demonstrated that Abraham was justified without the works of the Law, or works of merit, and James demonstrated that Abraham was justified when he did what God had commanded him to do. Here's James 2:21-24,
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
If we understand that Paul and James were speaking of different classes of works, then the supposed contradiction goes away. Paul fought against the Judaizers. James fought against the "do nothings".
Neither is my telling someone that they're lost equivilent to my saying, "Damn you". I say enough stupid things on my own, sir. I don't need any help from you.
Why on earth would I want you to be condemned? What kind of person do you think I am? I want to see you in heaven as much as I want to see my own children there.
In Romans (a good doctrinal book, right?) 10:1, Paul says, "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved."
Is Paul saying "Damn you, Israel" there? Of course he isn't. He recognizes that they're lost. He wants them to be saved. The problem is that they've gone about establishing their own righteousness, instead of submitting to the righteousness of God.
I don't dislike you, sir. I want the best for you.
In Christ,
bmerr
bmerr here. You said,
So apparently you believe that there are some books of the Bible that are not to be used to teach doctrine. It also seems as if you believe that there is no value in the Biblical records of the experiences of others.And that is exactly what happens when you take your theology from a history book instead of a doctrinal book like the book of Romans.
The Bible says that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Tim 3:16).
The Bible also tells us that "...all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come" (1 Cor 10:11).
Are you sure that no man could call Jesus Lord and still be lost? Jesus said that "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matt 7:21-23).
Paul was still in his sins when Ananias came to him. He was still lost, though he believed.
You seem not to believe that obedience has anything to do with salvation, but the Bible says of Christ, "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Heb 5:8, 9).
You can't have Biblical faith apart from obedience, sir.
Also, the Bible does teach that continued faithfulness is required if one is to be saved in the end. 2 Pet 1:5-10 reads,
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the father, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
As for showing you your error, you have refuted none of it, but simply argued form the position that is in question, taken words out of their context to try and prove a point (ie. baptism--NOT), and in many other ways distorted the Scriptures to match your own preconcieved notions about what they MUST mean.
We can go through it all again, if you want to.
In fact, here's one of the things that has been covered already, but I don't mind going over it again.
Abraham's justification by faith. Remember that both Paul and James use Abraham as an example to demonstrate their position. Paul demonstrated that Abraham was justified without the works of the Law, or works of merit, and James demonstrated that Abraham was justified when he did what God had commanded him to do. Here's James 2:21-24,
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
If we understand that Paul and James were speaking of different classes of works, then the supposed contradiction goes away. Paul fought against the Judaizers. James fought against the "do nothings".
Let me ask you something: When you tell someone that they're lost, is it the same thing as wishing they were lost? I'm sure it's not.There is no cause for name-calling, and putting into different words the actual phrase that you seemed to want to use: "Damn You!" for that is what it really mean, wasn't it? Saying that a person is lost is the polite way of saying the same thing carnally.
DHK
Neither is my telling someone that they're lost equivilent to my saying, "Damn you". I say enough stupid things on my own, sir. I don't need any help from you.
Why on earth would I want you to be condemned? What kind of person do you think I am? I want to see you in heaven as much as I want to see my own children there.
In Romans (a good doctrinal book, right?) 10:1, Paul says, "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved."
Is Paul saying "Damn you, Israel" there? Of course he isn't. He recognizes that they're lost. He wants them to be saved. The problem is that they've gone about establishing their own righteousness, instead of submitting to the righteousness of God.
I don't dislike you, sir. I want the best for you.
In Christ,
bmerr
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.Originally posted by bmerr:
You seem not to believe that obedience has anything to do with salvation, but the Bible says of Christ, "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Heb 5:8, 9).
You can't have Biblical faith apart from obedience, sir.
--No gift requires obedience. You deny the Word of God.
The topic here is baptism as it relates to salvation.
You just inferred that Christ was unsaved, because he had to learn obedience. That is heresy. Christ was God from all eternity. Even when he came to this earth as an infant he was still God. He never gave up his divinity. He was the God-Man at all times on this earth--totally God and totally man at the same time. He did not have to learn obedience to become God, or become saved. Are you suggesting that the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, was at some point in his life on earth lost and doomed to Hell?????? That is heresy.
DHK
DHK,
I wanted you to draw your own conclusion based on scripture. Don't think for a second that I am afraid to answer you.
I don't want to become your enemy because I tell you the truth.
My motivation is love, whether you believe that or not. It is also the truth.
Baptism puts us into Christ (Rom 6:3-4, Gal 3:27). I challenge you to find another way into Christ. Can one be saved outside of Christ? (II Tim 2:10)
I Pet 3:21 Baptism now save us. You teach it doesn't.
Baptism washes away our sins (Acts 22:16). Can one be saved in his sins?
Baptism is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). Can one be saved without having his sins remitted?
We are baptized into Christ's death, where His blood flowed. Can one be saved and not come in contact with Christ's death?
We are baptized into the Church (I Cor 12:13). Christ is savior of the body (which is the church, Eph 1:22-23, Col 1:18)- Eph 5:23. Can one be saved outside of the church?
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. Can one be saved who refuses to comply with such a simple instruction.
You say baptism in not from faith. The only source of faith (biblical faith) is God's word (Rom 10:17). If God's word said nothing about baptism, then you would be correct, but it DOES!
I did not invent baptism. I am not the one who said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." (Mark 16:16) Jesus said it, and I believe Him. If you don't believe Him, that is between you and God. All I can say is Jesus said it and he used some easy to understand words. It fits in perfect harmony with the rest of scripture. I believe Jesus. If you want to call me a heretic for believing and teaching the words of Jesus, that is up to you.
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...," so plain you would have to have help to misunderstand.
I wanted you to draw your own conclusion based on scripture. Don't think for a second that I am afraid to answer you.
I don't want to become your enemy because I tell you the truth.
My motivation is love, whether you believe that or not. It is also the truth.
Baptism puts us into Christ (Rom 6:3-4, Gal 3:27). I challenge you to find another way into Christ. Can one be saved outside of Christ? (II Tim 2:10)
I Pet 3:21 Baptism now save us. You teach it doesn't.
Baptism washes away our sins (Acts 22:16). Can one be saved in his sins?
Baptism is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). Can one be saved without having his sins remitted?
We are baptized into Christ's death, where His blood flowed. Can one be saved and not come in contact with Christ's death?
We are baptized into the Church (I Cor 12:13). Christ is savior of the body (which is the church, Eph 1:22-23, Col 1:18)- Eph 5:23. Can one be saved outside of the church?
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. Can one be saved who refuses to comply with such a simple instruction.
You say baptism in not from faith. The only source of faith (biblical faith) is God's word (Rom 10:17). If God's word said nothing about baptism, then you would be correct, but it DOES!
I did not invent baptism. I am not the one who said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." (Mark 16:16) Jesus said it, and I believe Him. If you don't believe Him, that is between you and God. All I can say is Jesus said it and he used some easy to understand words. It fits in perfect harmony with the rest of scripture. I believe Jesus. If you want to call me a heretic for believing and teaching the words of Jesus, that is up to you.
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...," so plain you would have to have help to misunderstand.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by bmerr:
You seem not to believe that obedience has anything to do with salvation, but the Bible says of Christ, "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Heb 5:8, 9).
You can't have Biblical faith apart from obedience, sir.
--No gift requires obedience. You deny the Word of God.
The topic here is baptism as it relates to salvation.
You just inferred that Christ was unsaved, because he had to learn obedience. That is heresy. Christ was God from all eternity. Even when he came to this earth as an infant he was still God. He never gave up his divinity. He was the God-Man at all times on this earth--totally God and totally man at the same time. He did not have to learn obedience to become God, or become saved. Are you suggesting that the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, was at some point in his life on earth lost and doomed to Hell?????? That is heresy.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]First of all, he listed the verse and you drew your own wrong conclusion.
The verse plainly says what he does for those who obey Him. You must not like that part of the verse, do you?
Yes, salvation is a gift. Jericho was also a gift.
Josh 6:2 And the LORD said to Joshua: “See! I have given Jericho into your hand, its king, and the mighty men of valor.
When did they get their gift, before or after they obeyed?
The wall fell by faith (Heb 11:30). Was any action required?
You have basically said these Old Testament examples are meaningless.
The Hebrew writer did not think they were meaningless. In fact, without the type of faith in Heb 11, it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God. (Heb 11:6). What type of faith? Obedient faith.
Gal 3:26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.-ESV
You have created an absolute ridiculous dichotomy.Originally posted by mman:
When did they get their gift, before or after they obeyed?
Please, look up the word "gift" in a dictionary.
A gift cannot be worked for. There is no obedience involved in receiving a gift. There is no work involved in receiving a gift. Consult a dictionary. Find out what a gift is. A gift is to be received, and that is all. Please don't tell me that you have never given away a gift to a relative at a birthday party or someother occasion. Do they work for the gifts that you give them.
Salvation is a gift. You cannot work for it.
Baptism is a work.
Salvation is not of work. It is the gift of God (Eph.2:8,9; Rom.6:23)
Gifts must be received. If one said, I will give you a million dollars if you will come to the front of the room and receive it. The person who wants the gift of money would have to go to the front of the room to get it. Gifts may require certain conditions.
Salvation by grace is based upon conditions. Faith is one such condition or requirement mandated by the new testament of Christ. Eph. 2:8,9. Repentance is also required. Luke 13;3 as is confesssion, Mat. 10:32,and baptism, Mark 16;16. Jesus stipulataed the conditons for salvation and our inheritance. Mat. 11: 28-32. Come unto me. And, behold I come quickly and my reward is with me to give to every man according as his works shall be. Rev. 22:12.cf. Rev. 14:13, I Pet. 1:1-5. The idea of conditonal gifts are found in the old testament, too. Isaiah. 1:18-20. God's spiritual gifts have always been stipulated in terms of conditions.
Salvation by grace is based upon conditions. Faith is one such condition or requirement mandated by the new testament of Christ. Eph. 2:8,9. Repentance is also required. Luke 13;3 as is confesssion, Mat. 10:32,and baptism, Mark 16;16. Jesus stipulataed the conditons for salvation and our inheritance. Mat. 11: 28-32. Come unto me. And, behold I come quickly and my reward is with me to give to every man according as his works shall be. Rev. 22:12.cf. Rev. 14:13, I Pet. 1:1-5. The idea of conditonal gifts are found in the old testament, too. Isaiah. 1:18-20. God's spiritual gifts have always been stipulated in terms of conditions.
There is no such thing as a conditional gift, except perhaps in the COC.Originally posted by Frank:
Salvation by grace is based upon conditions.
The idea of conditonal gifts are found in the old testament, too. Isaiah. 1:18-20. God's spiritual gifts have always been stipulated in terms of conditions.
Grace is God's free unmerited favor. He gives grace without conditions. He gives the rain without condition to both saved and unsaved alike. He gives the sunshine to save and unsaved alike, without condition, even though there are none of us that deserve it. That is grace. What did you do to deserve the sunshine, the rain, the exact percentage of nitrogen to oxygen in the atmosphere that you might be able to breathe properly, etc. That is God's grace, and you don't work one iota for it, and you don't deserve it. It his gift, his free unmerited favor to you--the grace of God.
Salvation is also a free gift--paid for with the blood of Christ, given to all those who will accept it by faith with no ocnditions attached. All they have to do is receive it.
I suggest you learn what a gift is.
DHK
DHK,
bmerr here. I would agree that the neccessities of life on this planet that you mentioned are free to all, no conditions required. People don't even have to acknowledge that they come from God, or believe that He exists to get them. He gives these gifts to the Creationist and the evolutionist alike. But none of these gifts lasts for ever, do they? None of these gifts cost God the blood of His Son.
Eternal life, on the other hand, will not pass away. Eternal life, in fact, did cost God the blood of His Son. I think God is entitled to put a few conditions on such a gift as eternal life. Certainly you don't put the gift of eternal life on the same level as sunshine, do you?
I don't think you do, sir. You even said that salvation was "given to all those who will accept it by faith with no conditions attached". Is faith not a condition? I believe it is. You contradict yourself, sir.
No, there are conditions for salvation, for pardon from sin. Faith is one of them. In fact, the Bible often rolls all the conditions up into one word and calls it "faith". But there is repentance also (Acts 17:30). There is confession (Rom 10:9, 10). There is baptism for the remisison of sins (Acts 2:38). These are the conditions of pardon for the alien sinner.
None of these conditions earns salvation for the sinner. These are not works of merit. They are not works of the Law. They are simply the things that God has commanded we do in order to become the children of God (John 1:12).
God's grace is given to all men without condition, but His salvation, which is by grace, through faith (Biblical, obedient faith), is conditional.
In Christ,
bmerr
bmerr here. I would agree that the neccessities of life on this planet that you mentioned are free to all, no conditions required. People don't even have to acknowledge that they come from God, or believe that He exists to get them. He gives these gifts to the Creationist and the evolutionist alike. But none of these gifts lasts for ever, do they? None of these gifts cost God the blood of His Son.
Eternal life, on the other hand, will not pass away. Eternal life, in fact, did cost God the blood of His Son. I think God is entitled to put a few conditions on such a gift as eternal life. Certainly you don't put the gift of eternal life on the same level as sunshine, do you?
I don't think you do, sir. You even said that salvation was "given to all those who will accept it by faith with no conditions attached". Is faith not a condition? I believe it is. You contradict yourself, sir.
No, there are conditions for salvation, for pardon from sin. Faith is one of them. In fact, the Bible often rolls all the conditions up into one word and calls it "faith". But there is repentance also (Acts 17:30). There is confession (Rom 10:9, 10). There is baptism for the remisison of sins (Acts 2:38). These are the conditions of pardon for the alien sinner.
None of these conditions earns salvation for the sinner. These are not works of merit. They are not works of the Law. They are simply the things that God has commanded we do in order to become the children of God (John 1:12).
God's grace is given to all men without condition, but His salvation, which is by grace, through faith (Biblical, obedient faith), is conditional.
In Christ,
bmerr
All of these gifts ultimately point man to a Creator. Even before they were created Christ "was the Lamb slaim before the foundation of the world." They were not created without the knowledge that Christ Himself would die for His love of man who He himself would create.Originally posted by bmerr:
DHK,
bmerr here. I would agree that the neccessities of life on this planet that you mentioned are free to all, no conditions required. People don't even have to acknowledge that they come from God, or believe that He exists to get them. He gives these gifts to the Creationist and the evolutionist alike. But none of these gifts lasts for ever, do they? None of these gifts cost God the blood of His Son.
Even so his entire creation would point man to the Creator, and they would be without excuse in believ in in God as the Creator:
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
What gives you the authority to redefine what a gift is. All gifts comt someone something. The more value the gift, the more precious it is. But you have changed the meaning. You say: "The more value the gift, the more you have to work for it." That is heresy and demeans the work of Christ. It is compable to spitting in the face of Christ, and telling him that his atonement wasn't good enough. What an insult to Christ!Eternal life, on the other hand, will not pass away. Eternal life, in fact, did cost God the blood of His Son. I think God is entitled to put a few conditions on such a gift as eternal life. Certainly you don't put the gift of eternal life on the same level as sunshine, do you?
Salvation is a gift. Period! No ocnditions attached! It is the gift of God. The Bible declares it to be so. If you have a problem with that I suggest you take it up with the author of the Book--God.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
"You think God is entitled to put conditions on it." You are entitled to your opinion, but praise the Lord, you are not God. God has put no conditions on his salvation. Salvation is by faith, and faith alone. And that is not a condition by its very definition.
Go back to Eph.2:8,9
For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works.
--Salvation is through faith..Not of works.
It is through faith because faith is not a work (obviously). Faith is not a condition. It is the way it is received. Conditions are works.
A child receives a gift from her father by faith. The faith is that she doesn't have to and work for it. She believes that he is giving her a gift, and not going to take it back and conditions on it--like doing certain work, or working for it first. If it is truly a gift, then she accepts freely right there and then with no conditions attached. All she does is receive it. And that is exactly what John 1:12 says:
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
A gift is a gift is a gift. You cannot change the definition of a gift just because the value of the gift may change. It remains a gift nevertheless. A gift never has conditions attached. The moment it does, it ceases to be a gift.I don't think you do, sir. You even said that salvation was "given to all those who will accept it by faith with no conditions attached". Is faith not a condition? I believe it is. You contradict yourself, sir.
Is faith a condition. I answered that. No of course not. Faith is the absence of all conditions. Read above. If you accept salvation by faith, it is by faith that there are no conditions attached. Christ alone saves and nothing else. That is what the object of your faith is--Christ, not baptism. If your faith is any other thing or person, you will die in your sins. Only Christ can save. That is why salvation is by faith and faith alone with no conditions attached. The very fact that is by faith implicitly means that there are no conditions attached.
You are very confused (and possibly brain-washed). Faith is not a condition, not a work.No, there are conditions for salvation, for pardon from sin. Faith is one of them. In fact, the Bible often rolls all the conditions up into one word and calls it "faith". But there is repentance also (Acts 17:30). There is confession (Rom 10:9, 10). There is baptism for the remisison of sins (Acts 2:38). These are the conditions of pardon for the alien sinner.
Repentance is the same thing. What happens when a man believes (has faith). What happened to the prodigal son when he came to his sense and decided to return to his father? He had a change of mind. He changed his mind about the way that he was living compared to the way his father would treat him. He repented. He was accepted by the father, and repented or changed his mind about the world and its way of life. His attitude towards both had changed. That is not a work. That is not "doing." It is a change of mind, which repentance is. When I believe (or have faith in God), I am changing my mind and attitude toward God at the same time. That in fact is what I am believing isn't it. Part of what I am believing is that Christ can save me and change my life, something this world could never do, therefore I give my life to Christ, and turn from this wicked world. That is repentance and faith in Christ all at the same time--all without being a work. And one can confess that (confession only being a vehicle of one's faith) and still not have performed a single work.
However baptism is a work. It is man's work. It is man's doing. Man does it. Man receives it. It is all of man. It has nothing to do with salvation.
The only condition that you yourself imposed (not the Bible) is baptism. Therefore it is heresy. For God did not impose any conditions on salvation. It is a free gift.None of these conditions earns salvation for the sinner. These are not works of merit. They are not works of the Law. They are simply the things that God has commanded we do in order to become the children of God (John 1:12).
A gift is a gift is a gift. Learn what a gift is.God's grace is given to all men without condition, but His salvation, which is by grace, through faith (Biblical, obedient faith), is conditional.
The value of a gift many change. But the nature of a gift never changes. The most valuable gift that ever was given was salvation, bought and paid for with the blood of Jesus, given to all who will freely receive it. If you don't take you won't get it.
If the people in Ethiopia don't take the precious wheat provided for them, they will starve. They have to actively receive that which is provided for them. It must be received. Thus it is with salvation. It must be received. No conditions attached.
DHK
Nevertheless
New Member
If one cannot receive salvation without faith then faith is a condition for receiving salvation.
Saying 'Is not!' over and over again does not change the fact.
Saying 'Is not!' over and over again does not change the fact.
You have created an absolute ridiculous dichotomy.Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by mman:
When did they get their gift, before or after they obeyed?
Please, look up the word "gift" in a dictionary.
A gift cannot be worked for. There is no obedience involved in receiving a gift. There is no work involved in receiving a gift. Consult a dictionary. Find out what a gift is. A gift is to be received, and that is all. Please don't tell me that you have never given away a gift to a relative at a birthday party or someother occasion. Do they work for the gifts that you give them.
Salvation is a gift. You cannot work for it.
Baptism is a work.
Salvation is not of work. It is the gift of God (Eph.2:8,9; Rom.6:23) </font>[/QUOTE]You just can't see, can you. They didn't earn the walls falling down, yet obedience was required. They fell BY FAITH. When you open the gift package, you do work, but you do not earn the gift inside. How ridiculous to think that any effort required in obtaining a gift, negates the gift. Naaman received the cure for his leprosy, but he didn't have to earn it, yet he was obedient. When they looked on the brass serpent, they didn't earn their cure, yet action was required.
Nowhere does the bible say baptism is a work. Baptism is does not earn you anything. If it did, then God would owe everyone who has ever been dunked for any reason. That is not faith. People are baptized because God said. Baptism is not a work of merit. This is where you err. You cannot accept the plain teaching of Gal 3:26-27 or Col 2:12 that says we are baptized through faith.
Just what is YOUR definition of a work? Whatever it is, it will include confession. Does confession earn you salvation? Neither does baptism.
I know, baptism seems foolish to you. You've mocked it, called it a pagan ritual, a heresy, and so forth.
It takes true faith to submit to baptism for the remission of sins. I could have never figured it out on my own. Why would I any anyone think that being submurged under water would earn anything? I don't know.
Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" - Does one really have faith in Jesus when they reject what he says?
Is that so? God had already given Jericho to the Isrealites. (Josh 6:2). So here we have a gift that was already given. Had it been received? Not yet. Was any action required for them to receive that gift? (Heb 11:30). Did they earn it by their actions? Of course not, the walls fell by faith.Originally posted by DHK:
A gift is a gift is a gift. You cannot change the definition of a gift just because the value of the gift may change. It remains a gift nevertheless. A gift never has conditions attached. The moment it does, it ceases to be a gift.
If you work to open the package, does it cease to be a gift? By your logic, YES!
DHK,
bmerr here. Yet again, you speak contrary to the Bible, yea, even the Son of God. Here's what you said:
In John 6:28, 29, we find these words:
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Notice that the Lord said that for them to believe (have faith) was the work of God. Did that mean that it was up to God for them to believe or not? No, for Jesus was not a Calvinist. For them to believe in Jesus was the work commanded by God, or as Jesus put it, the work of God.
Of course, my main point here is that while you said,
Jesus Himself calls faith a work in John 6:28. 29.
That's all I had.
In Christ,
bmerr
bmerr here. Yet again, you speak contrary to the Bible, yea, even the Son of God. Here's what you said:
(I've taken the liberty of bolding a portion of your words for emphasis.)Originally posted by DHK: One may rightly say that the condition for salvation is to simply receive Christ by faith. But in no way can one classify faith as a work.
In John 6:28, 29, we find these words:
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Notice that the Lord said that for them to believe (have faith) was the work of God. Did that mean that it was up to God for them to believe or not? No, for Jesus was not a Calvinist. For them to believe in Jesus was the work commanded by God, or as Jesus put it, the work of God.
Of course, my main point here is that while you said,
,But in no way can one classify faith as a work.
Jesus Himself calls faith a work in John 6:28. 29.
That's all I had.
In Christ,
bmerr
A gift is a gift. Some Parents have a problem giving gifts (transfetting assets) to their children. If there are strings attached is it a gift? Does the child have a "right" to trash a gift? YES. It is his loss, not the parents.
Does this relate to the "salvation" problem? If a person trashes the gift of salvation is this God taking back a gift?
Is "sinning so that grace may abound" part of this problem?
Does this relate to the "salvation" problem? If a person trashes the gift of salvation is this God taking back a gift?
Is "sinning so that grace may abound" part of this problem?
Why do you continue to use irrelevant OT examples?Originally posted by mman:
You just can't see, can you. They didn't earn the walls falling down, yet obedience was required. They fell BY FAITH. When you open the gift package, you do work, but you do not earn the gift inside. How ridiculous to think that any effort required in obtaining a gift, negates the gift. Naaman received the cure for his leprosy, but he didn't have to earn it, yet he was obedient. When they looked on the brass serpent, they didn't earn their cure, yet action was required.
Was Naaman saved as a result of his obedience? No.
Were the Israelites saved as a result of walking around the walls of Jericho. No, they had already been previously saved.
Your examples are red herrings and have nothing to do with the topic.
A work is a work is a work. This is where you err. Look up the definition of "work" in a dictionary. Have you bought one yet? Baptism is a work. It is a work of man. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that baptism is the gift of God.Nowhere does the bible say baptism is a work. Baptism is does not earn you anything. If it did, then God would owe everyone who has ever been dunked for any reason. That is not faith. People are baptized because God said. Baptism is not a work of merit. This is where you err.
Certainly I can.You cannot accept the plain teaching of Gal 3:26-27 or Col 2:12 that says we are baptized through faith.
Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
--By faith and faith alone, I am a child of God, because I have put my faith in the atoning work of the Lord Jesus Christ. Nice verse. It disproves everything that you have been saying. There is no baptism here; simply faith and faith alone. Faith in Christ saves. It makes one a child of God entirely without baptism.
Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
--On the day that I trusted Christ as my Saviour (nothing to do with baptism) the Holy Spirit immersed me into Christ. It is a work of the Holy Spirit, and not of man. It has nothing to do with water baptism. Water gets you wet, and that is all.
No, confession is an expression of one's faith. Why would I call it a work.Just what is YOUR definition of a work? Whatever it is, it will include confession. Does confession earn you salvation? Neither does baptism.
Baptism is a work because it is an act of doing something by man. Putting someone under the water and bringing him out of the water takes work. It is work. Confession, the expression of one's faith is not work; it is simply the expression of one's faith, the vehicle through which faith is expressed. Why is that such a difficult concept for you to see?
It is not foolish, when put in its rightful place--obedience to Christ after salvation. However it is superstitious paganism to think that baptism could wash away sins. Only the blood of Christ can do that. We are not Hindus. Baptism is not part of salvation, never was. Christ alone can take away your sin; baptism never.I know, baptism seems foolish to you. You've mocked it, called it a pagan ritual, a heresy, and so forth.
Does it take faith to submit to baptism?It takes true faith to submit to baptism for the remission of sins. I could have never figured it out on my own. Why would I any anyone think that being submurged under water would earn anything? I don't know.
Does it take faith for the Mormons to be baptized hundreds of times over, each time for a deceased relative in hopes that that relative will then be saved out of perdition? Is that the kind of faith that you have--a blind superstitious faith not supported any where in Scripture?
Baptism doesn't take faith; it takes obedience.
Others (including myself) have already taken the time to explain this verse to you. If you do not believe our words, I will leave you to yourself to find out the correct interpretation. But know this that the Bible does not contradict itself.Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" - Does one really have faith in Jesus when they reject what he says?
DHK
Already explained this one.Originally posted by mman:
Is that so? God had already given Jericho to the Isrealites. (Josh 6:2). So here we have a gift that was already given. Had it been received? Not yet. Was any action required for them to receive that gift? (Heb 11:30). Did they earn it by their actions? Of course not, the walls fell by faith.
If you work to open the package, does it cease to be a gift? By your logic, YES!
It is the use of non applicable Old Testament examples to New Testament salvation. How ridiculous, and yet you do it all the time.
I ask you again? Did the Israelites get saved through their obedience? No.
They were already saved. This has nothing to do with NT salvation.
Dealing with the illustration only in simple terms it goes like this.
God had given Jericho to the Israelites. Like any gift they had to receive it. That is all. It was theirs to receive. It was a gift, no conditions attached. They knew ahead of time that there mission was to go into the promised land and take it. It was a battle for the entire land. Christianity is a battle, a spiritual battle. That is why your illustration doesn't fit. The gain of Jericho was obtained by a saved people. We as saved people are commanded to work and pray. In fact travail in prayer which is work. You might call it a work of faith. That has nothing to do with salvation. Why are you confusing works of the Christian life with salvation, which has no works, but is a free gift without conditions?
,Originally posted by bmerr:
Notice that the Lord said that for them to believe (have faith) was the work of God. Did that mean that it was up to God for them to believe or not? No, for Jesus was not a Calvinist. For them to believe in Jesus was the work commanded by God, or as Jesus put it, the work of God.
Of course, my main point here is that while you said,
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />But in no way can one classify faith as a work.
Jesus Himself calls faith a work in John 6:28. 29.
That's all I had.
In Christ,
bmerr </font>[/QUOTE]First, I am not a Calvinist.
Second you greatly misunderstand this passage.
The Jews come to Jesus asking:
"What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?"
Jesus uses a play on words, for there is no work that man can do to work his way into heaven. There is nothing that they can do. No work. Nada. Zip. Zero. Nothing. Nilch.
Thus he says:
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
He is saying: Call it a work if you will, but the only thing that you can do: is believe on him whom he hath sent. Man feels that he has to do something like the COC feel they have to be baptized--a work of man. They have to help God in his atonement (What a shame!). The Jews thought that they had to do something. Jesus makes a play on their words. This is what you must do--This is your "work" "Believe!" But he knew it is not a work. It was a play on words, a literary device.
DHK
Hi DHK
Originally posted by DHK:
Acts 2 tells us that baptism is for the remission of sins Peter says no such thing. Their sins were remitted. On that basis were they baptized. The word "for" is a bit tricky there.[qb]First, I agree with you. I have used your exact same argument many times.
Second, to make the apologetic defense rest on the word "for" is a serious tactical error. It gives water baptism generation folks the feeling that they are right since inded the preposition is best and most often translated "for" or "into" and rarely "because of."
Third, a better tactic is to use context. Peter was preaching to Jews alone. He warned them to flee the wrath coming on that "untoward generation."
Thus, it is wrong to take material point designed to national Israel trying to avoid the judgment of AD 70 and apply it to Gentiles of any time period.
The "repent and baptise" was to get these rebellious Israelites to accept their Messiah Whom they had cruicified.
When you use context, they have no standard recourse to well rehearsed replies using Greek prepositions.
Lloyd