-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Believed King James was most accurate, now unsure what to think
- Thread starter JasonF
- Start date
The KJV teaches that Eve was created by God from the sleeping body of Adam and then given to him as his wife and through whom Cain and Abel (twins) were born to him and later Seth, after that sons and daughters. Not all Bibles teach that. You should discard those as soon as possible.
Where do you get that Cain and Able were twins?
My KJV does not say that at all. I am aware of tradition that Cain and Able were twins....not to each other but that each had twin sisters. But that is Hebrew tradition.
37818
Well-Known Member
Please give an example translation issue of this problem. So it can be discussed here. Or start a thread on this problem.
AVL1984
<img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>
Where is your scriptural proof that Cain and Abel were twins? I don't find that anywhere.
37818
Well-Known Member
How they were born. Genesis 4:1-2, "And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. And she again bare his brother Abel. . . ."
She there conceived once and bore twice per the simple reading of the text.
The Untold Story of Cain and Abel | AHRC
Last edited:
This is a very mature and wise answer. Using the word mature does not mean that I think the poster is old.
Alan, this is a gross misrepresentation of modern translators. Wayne Grudem led the ESV translation. I just read his 1100 page Systematic Theology in 4 months, and he absolutely opposes the garbage you accuse him of. He absolutely believes in the Full Deity of Jesus Christ. You are embarrassing.
That would be OK. I AM 62!!This is a very mature and wise answer. Using the word mature does not mean that I think the poster is old.
This is a good question. The proof is in the words of God and how he has chosen to present them. You probably do not read the KJV Bible but God teaches us his ways. all through the scriptures. He made this charge against the Hebrews with whom he had a personal relationship.
Ps 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
David said this when all his enemies were defeated;
2Sa 22:22 For I have kept the ways of the LORD, and have not wickedly departed from my God.
Now, notice how God handles the births of Cain and Abel;
Ge 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
2 And she again bare his brother Abel.
You will notice that Eve conceived and bare Cain. And with Abel she just bare him. No mention of conception or Adam knowing her again. She conceived once but she bare two men. One conception, two men. They were one yet two for the sake of the type.
Why is this important to get right? Because of the typology that God is instituting here with these two men. It will be consistent and instructive throughout the scriptures. Here is the truth God wants to emphasize as a means of teaching us his ways.
Ga 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
This necessitates the new birth because God is the only remedy for the spirit of man who would do good to overcome the flesh. Cain represents the flesh who is opposed to God and his rule over him. Abel represents the second birth. Cain and Abel was at war until Abel was killed by Cain.
God hates the flesh and will one day totally rid the world of the Adamic nature that resides in the bodies of his offspring. God says in Romans 9 concerning Esau and Jacob. "Jacob, (the second born of the twins,) have I loved, but Esau have I hated." Shem, Ham, and Japheth were triplets but God used Shem to create the nation through whom the seed of the woman would come. Japheth was the elder and Shem was the second born. God uses the second born.
Ro 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Isaac was the second born of Abraham and Ishmael was his firstborn.
Esau was the firstborn of Isaac and then Jacob.
Israel was the firstborn son of God (ex 4) and Jesus was his second born Son, but the only Son begotten of a woman.
Now watch this typology that was set in these two brothers.
Ge 4:2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
So, thanks for the question. All scripture is interrelated in some manner.
What's that got to do with the KJVO myth ? And the KJV's Genesis 4:1-2 does NOT say Cain & Abel were twins.
Phew, safe at home. I'm 60.
37818
Well-Known Member
Has nothing to do with KJV. Has to do with understanding the Hebrew as translated into our English.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Then, he needs to use a Bible that also believes in the Deity of Jesus Christ.
The ESV is no friend of the Lord Jesus Christ
as it contains many verses which have been chopped up by the Gnostics.
"They have taken the name of the Lord Jesus Christ
and have shortened it since they did not believe
that Christ was God and man at the same time."
"The English Standard Version like its modern counterparts
has attacked the name of the Lord Jesus Christ by shearing off parts of the name.
"There are a total of 22 verses that have been mutilated by the Gnostics.
"These mutilations have been retained in the ESV
which means the translators agree with the Gnostics.
"With every new translation, the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ
is attacked and His position brought down a little lower..."
Also, for example, this is what the Preservation of the Bible looks like
on this first one, by comparison,
which Doctrine of the Preservation of the Bible
has been entirely given up and lost by the 'modern bibles',
as you will notice in all of the ESV verses cited;
Geneva Bible of 1587
But we beleeue, through the grace of the Lord Iesus Christ to be saued, euen as they doe.
Bishops' Bible of 1568
But we beleue, that through the grace of the Lorde Iesu Christe, we shalbe saued, euen as they.
Coverdale Bible of 1535
But we beleue to be saued thorow the grace of the LORDE Iesu Christ, like as they also.
Tyndale Bible of 1526
But we beleve that thorowe the grace of the Lorde Iesu Christ we shalbe saved as they doo.
Acts 15:11
(KJV) But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
(ESV) But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."
Acts 16:31
(KJV) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
(ESV) And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Romans 16:18
(KJV) For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
(ESV) For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.
Romans 16:24
(KJV) The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
(ESV) Omitted
1 Corinthians 5:4
(KJV) In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
(ESV) When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
1 Corinthians 16:22
KJV) If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.
(ESV) If anyone has no love for the Lord, let him be accursed. Our Lord, come!
1 Corinthians 16:23
(KJV) The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
(ESV) The grace of the Lord Jesus be with you.
2 Corinthians 11:31
(KJV) The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
(ESV) The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying.
Ephesians 3:14
(KJV) For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
(ESV) For this reason I bow my knees before the Father ................,
Colossians 1:2
(KJV) To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
(ESV) To the saints and faithful brothers in Christ at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father ..................
1 Thessalonians 2:19
(KJV) For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?
(ESV) For what is our hope or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at his coming? Is it not you?
1 Thessalonians 3:11
(KJV) Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.
(ESV) Now may our God and Father himself, and our Lord Jesus, direct our way to you,
1 Thessalonians 3:13
(KJV) To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
(ESV) so that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.
2 Thessalonians 1:8
(KJV) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
(ESV) in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2 Thessalonians 1:12
(KJV) That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
(ESV) so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Timothy 1:1
(KJV) Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
(ESV) Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,
1 Timothy 5:21
(KJV) I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
(ESV) In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality.
2 Timothy 4:1
(KJV) I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
(ESV) I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:
2 Timothy 4:22
(KJV) The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit. Grace be with you. Amen.
(ESV) The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you.
Titus 1:4
(KJV) To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
(ESV) To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.
2 John 3
(KJV) Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
(ESV) Grace, mercy, and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ the Father’s Son, in truth and love.
Revelation 22:21
(KJV) The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
(ESV) The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.
Last edited:
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
see also: ESV - More Changes to the Text –
The ESV is going to offer only more confusion and false teaching.
This article by Will Kinney shows the corruption behind the 2001 ESV.
The ESV is going to be revised in 2016 but it will only be more of the same.
Fifty Biblical Teachings and Doctrines Affected in the ESV-
The ESV is not the accurate version you think it is!
Here is visible proof!
The English Standard Version Exposed –
Just like all the other modern versions the ESV is as corrupt.
This article takes 50 verses and shows how corrupt it really is
and that it is no better than the others
although preachers advocate its usage
like R.C. Sproul and John MacArthur.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
BIBLE DOCTRINES AFFECTED BY MODERN VERSIONS
By Paul L. Freeman
"INTRODUCTION
"The battle for the Word of God is going on today as it always has.
"The work of the Evil One himself has ever been
to cause men to doubt the Word (Gen. 3:1),
"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field
which the LORD God had made.
"And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said,
Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?"
to corrupt the Word (2 Cor. 2:17),
"For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God:
but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ."
and to misquote the Word (Luke 4:10-11).
10 "For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee,
to keep thee:
11 "And in their hands they shall bear thee up,
lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone."
"There are many Modern Versions on the scene today
all claiming to be more accurate
or more readable renderings of the Word of God.
"Most of these versions follow the MINORITY Greek Text
even though that text exhibits corruption throughout.
(this is a list of 770 verses that show their Preservation
through various versions, as well as listings of the variety of texts used,
corrupt and uncorrupt, and reasons why the changes
affect Christian teachings.
KJV Comparison Page)
"The King James Version was translated
from the MAJORITY Greek Text
which agrees with about 95% of all available manuscripts.
"The MAJORITY Greek Text can be traced back
to the Peshitta (Syriac Version) about 150 A.D."
"Those who want to replace our King James Version
with new Modern Versions are constantly stating that
no Bible Doctrines are affected by the changes.
"One school recently published an article by one of its teachers
in which he said that "BOTH TEXTS ARE THE WORD OF GOD."
"It is difficult to understand how two texts
differing in over 5,000 places can both be the Word of God.
"It only serves to show the absolute desperation
on the part of the MINORITY Text champions
to defend their indefensible position.
"The purpose of this volume is to show the changes made
by the MINORITY text and how they affect the Bible Doctrines
which Christians have always believed.
"Though I do not consider any change in the Word of God
to be unimportant, I have singled out the most glaring examples.
"A careful reading will show that
the Fundamental Doctrines of the Christian faith
have been affected many times."
"Are we to believe the scholars when they tell us
that no important doctrines are affected by the new Modern Versions?
"It is obvious that they are not correct.
"What they really mean to say is that
when all the changes have been made the Bible Doctrines
are still there somewhere else in the Bible.
In other words, "If there are ten verses showing
the Virgin Birth of Christ,
and they have removed two,
there are still eight remaining to prove the doctrine.
"That may satisfy them, but the Fundamental believer
sees that as a piece-by-piece destruction of the Word of God."
Dozens of verses where Doctrines are affected: Bible Doctrines Affected by Modern Versions
It is no surprise to me that you have totally missed the metaphor that is established in the very first record of fallen humanity. These two men were twin brothers of the same stock and sets the precedent for the battle between the flesh and the spirit The first man is born of the flesh and Cain typifies that man while the second birth produces the man God can use and through whom he can accomplish his will. Cain was sensual and Abel was spiritual. Their actions toward God and each other demonstrates this.(Ro 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God)
Jesus Christ says his words are spiritual and are life (Jn 6:63) and that means they carry his spiritual meanings.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Nicodemus was a pharisee, a master and teacher of the OT. Jesus said he should have known about the second birth. How would he have known? By understanding the spiritual nature of the words in it. It was dead sure he knew this chapter about Cain and Abel and all the other second born men whom God used after rejecting the first born but the metaphor was not realized by him.
These men were twins. One conception, two births.
Can you provide sound evidence that proves this statement to be true?
Does every reading followed in the KJV actually agree with 95% of all available Greek NT manuscripts?
Does this statement ignore the fact that the KJV follows a few readings that were introduced into the printed Textus Receptus editions that are found in no known preserved Greek NT manuscripts?
Does this statement ignore the evidence that indicates that the KJV may follow over 1,000 readings that are found in less than 50% of available Greek NT manuscripts?
In the second appendix of a reprint of Murdock's translation, Isaac Hall maintained that none of the manuscripts of the Peshitta "contain the story of the adulteress, John 7:53 to 8:11, nor the text of the three Heavenly Witnesses, 1 John 5:7, nor Luke 22:17, 18" (p. 495). Scrivener observed that the first printed edition (1555) of the Peshitta by Albert Widmanstadt was "apparently based on manuscript authority alone" and that it did not contain the second epistle of Peter, the second and third epistles of John, Jude, Revelation, John 7:53-8:11, Luke 22:17-18, and doubtful clauses in Matthew 27:35, Acts 8:37, 15:34, 28:29, and 1 John 5:7-8 (Plain Introduction, II, pp. 8-9). Scrivener again asserted that Acts 15:34 “is wanting [lacking] in the Peshitto (only that Tremellius and Gutbier between them thrust their own version into the text)” (Ibid., p. 373). Some later printed editions of the Peshitta added or interpolated some of the verses and clauses that are not found in any of the existing manuscripts of the Peshitta.
The Peshitta Syriac Bible has the different reading "Titus" at Acts 18:7. Because of a likeness of ending, a line of Greek is said to be omitted from some Greek manuscripts at John 6:11, and this copying error can be found in the Peshitta Syriac Version. Thus, at John 6:11 the Lamsa Bible and Glenn David Bauscher’s translation of the Peshitta have Jesus distributing the bread to the multitude rather than to the disciples who distribute it to the multitude. At Luke 8:12, Murdock’s New Testament, the Lamsa Bible, and the Peshitta as translated by Glenn David Bauscher have "the enemy" where the KJV has "the devil." Bob Ross cited John Gill as noting: "The Syriac version here [John 1:18] renders it, 'the only begotten God'" (Trinity and the Eternal Sonship of Christ, p. 257). The Lamsa Bible has "firstborn of God" at John 1:18 while Murdock's translation and Bauscher’s translation of the Syriac have "the only begotten God." Murdock, Lamsa, and Bauscher have "Isaiah the prophet" at Mark 1:2 instead of “the prophets.” At John 1:28, Murdock, Lamsa, and Bauscher have “Bethany” instead of “Bethabara.” Murdock has “a certain Jew,” Lamsa has “a Jew,” and Bauscher has “a certain Judean” instead of “the Jews” at John 3:25. Murdock’s has “Joseph of Ramath” at John 19:38 instead of “Joseph of Arimathaea.” At Matthew 11:19, Lamsa and Bauscher have “justified by its works” where the KJV has “justified of her children.” At Luke 7:35, Lamsa and Bauscher have “justified by all its works” where the KJV has “justified by all her children.” Murdock’s and Lamsa have “gospel of God” at Acts 12:24 where the KJV has “word of God.” Murdock’s and Lamsa have “Barnabas” at Acts 13:13 where the KJV has “his company.” Murdock’s, Lamsa’s, and Bauscher’s translations of the Peshitta have “the day of our Lord” instead of “the Lord’s supper” at 1 Corinthians 11:20. Murdock’s has “Cephas” instead of “Peter” at Galatians 1:18. Instead of “bishops” at Philippians 1:1, Murdock, Lamsa, and Bauscher have “elders.” At Revelation 1:8, Murdock and Lamsa have “the Lord God” where the KJV has “the Lord.” Murdock has “O Lord our God, the Holy,” Lamsa has “O our Holy Lord and God,” and Bauscher has “Our Lord and Our God” at Revelation 4:11 where the KJV has “O Lord.” Murdock, Lamsa, and Bauscher have "eagle" at Revelation 8:13 instead of "angel." At Revelation 14:4, Murdock and Lamsa have “redeemed by Jesus” where the KJV has “redeemed.” These three English translations of the Peshitta Syriac Bible have “tree of life” instead of “book of life” at Revelation 22:19.
Along with other differences, there are also several other omissions besides the whole verses listed earlier and some additions in the Peshitta when compared to the KJV. At Matthew 27:9, Murdock’s, Lamsa’s, and Bauscher’s translations omit “Jeremy.” As translated into English, the Peshitta does not have "God" at Mark 12:32, and it does not have the last half of Matthew 27:35. Two phrases [“by them of old time”] are omitted at Matthew 5:27. At Matthew 25:13, a clause [“wherein the Son of man cometh”] is omitted. Another clause [“as they went to tell his disciples”] is missing at Matthew 28:9. Several words [“into the fire that never shall be quenched”] are omitted at Mark 9:45. At Mark 11:20, Murdock’s and Lamsa omitted two phrases [“in the name of the Lord“]. The first half of Acts 9:6 is omitted. At Acts 28:16, several words [“delivered the prisoners to the captain of the guard”] are omitted. One commandment [“thou shalt not bear false witness”] is omitted at Romans 13:9. At Colossians 1:14, a phrase “through his blood”] is not found. Several words [“I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last”] are missing at Revelation 1:11. The clause “which are in Asia” is also omitted at Revelation 1:11. The phrase “unto me” or “to me” after “saying” at Revelation 1:17 is not found in the Peshitta.
In some verses, English translations of the Peshitta may have additional words such as “the river” at Matthew 3:6, “it is I; be not afraid“ or “do not be afraid“ at Luke 24:36, “in Hebrew“ at John 20:16, “over Egypt” at Acts 7:18, “surnamed Agrippa“ at Acts 12:1, “to Antioch“ at Acts 12:25, “of the Lord” at Acts 14:25, “of Jesus“ at Acts 16:7, “in him“ at Romans 3:22, “the son of Nun” at Hebrews 4:8, and “a third part of the earth was burnt up” at Revelation 8:7. At Matthew 28:18, the Peshitta Syriac added the following words as translated in the Lamsa Bible: "just as my Father has sent me I am also sending you." At Acts 14:10, the Lamsa Bible has the phrase "in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ" which is not found there in the KJV.
At Matthew 10:8, the Lamsa Bible and Bauscher’s translation do not have "raise the dead," which is also not found in the Greek Majority Text. Murdock’s has “raise the dead” in brackets with a marginal note that stated “omitted in most copies.”
Does selecting 50 verses that are thought to favor one Bible translation actually prove that it is more accurate overall than another English Bible translation?
There would be the possibility that in a different set of 50 verses that the other English Bible translation could be more accurate than the KJV. What may be true of a few individual or even 50 renderings may not be true of the whole overall translation just as what may be considered true overall of the whole translation may not be true of each individual rendering.
Does this article's claims and conclusions possibly involve use of the fallacy of composition?
Henry Virkler noted: “The fallacy of composition occurs when someone assumes that what is true of the individual members of a class is true of the entire class” (Christian’s Guide to Critical Thinking, p. 202). In his glossary, Gordon Clark defined composition as “an informal logical fallacy in which the characteristic of the part is attributed to the whole” (Logic, p. 134).
In their glossary, Norman Geisler and Ronald Brooks defined fallacy of division as “fallacy that assumes that what is true of the whole is true of the parts” (Come, Let Us Reason, p. 190). Henry Virkler observed: “A person commits the fallacy of division when he or she says that what is true of a group is also true of the individual members of a group” (Christian’s Guide, p. 204).
Use of an adjective to describe the whole text of a translation can involve use of the fallacy of composition when or if it is assumed or maintained that what is true of a few individual renderings or what is claimed to be true of 50 or more individual renderings is true of all the renderings in that translation.