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BF&M 2000 vs 1963

BF&M

  • 1963 is too conservative

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 2000 needs additional articles

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    15

Salty

20,000 Posts Club
Administrator
In other words, conform to our creedal coercion and believe like I/we do or leave. Such non-Baptist thinking didn't happen until the fundamentalist cabal took over.
and it works the other way as well - back in the late '60's and '70's scores of SBC churches left the Convention over liberalism and many pastors left their SBC churches.
Now let me ask you on Question (3 parts)
Should Article VII of the BF&M be deleted?
A) Shouldn't it be a local Baptist church issue if baptism is really an ordnance?
B) Shouldn't it be a local Baptist church issue if sprinkling is sufficient?
C. Shouldn't it be a local Baptist church issue if baptism should be required before observing communion

A simple yes or no to each sub-question should be sufficient

Very good! Fundamentalist Baptists and others rail against the RCC and an infallible pope, and then they create a paper pope.
Excuse me for having my head in the sand, but exactly who is the Baptist Pope?
 

HeirofSalvation

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Hmmm....Always thought the most superior one of the three was the 1925....I don't personally care for either 63 or 2000 :laugh:
 

12strings

Active Member
In other words, conform to our creedal coercion and believe like I/we do or leave. Such non-Baptist thinking didn't happen until the fundamentalist cabal took over.

So you believe there should be ZERO uniformity of doctrine in an association of baptist Churches? No guiding principles or basic set of beliefs to be a seminary professor or a missionary?

Why not just admit that it's not the way the 2000 is used, but rather it's content that bothers you...and that if it were less stringent, you would have no problem using it as a criteria for hiring seminary professors?

(or if the above is not true, explain why).
 

12strings

Active Member
Jesus as the revelation is provides all that is needed for salvation, the bible doesn't do this. The bible is the record of God revealing himself to humanity. What the Law could not do, Jesus has done. Making the bible the revelation and not the record of the revelation puts it on equal status with Jesus, which by extension would mean that technically salvation could be found in the bible somehow apart from Jesus. Though I would doubt any SBCer would ever say this, by removing the words the record of, it makes it very real possibility.

I think this is quite an exaggeration. I've never heard any SBCer say the Bible can save you without Jesus, or even imply the possibility. Don't forget this sentance is IN THE SECTION ON SCRIPTURE, not Christ. Revelation means to reveal something...The Bible reveals God, Reveals Jesus. Therefore it is a revelation.

I believe the bible because of Jesus, not the other way around.

Agreed. The historical evidence for Jesus' life, death, and resurection gives us confidence that what the Gospels say about him is true...that what the epistles say is true...Jesus' own words give us confidence that the OT is true...but none of that means it is somehow incorrect to say the Bible is the revelation of God.

The Bible has revealed God to multitudes of people...especially after the invention of the printing press, which revealed what was lacking in the middle ages when the average person did NOT have access to the Bible, was had to rely on a priest's teaching alone.
 

12strings

Active Member
Well I have never seen it but the words "abstract" and "principles" are far to vague for me.

It's simply the old language from 1858...Here it is for those interested...the parts that cause it to be controversial are highlighted, and essentially put forth what might be considered a 4-point calvinistic doctrine.

THE ABSTRACT OF PRINCIPLES:

I. The Scriptures.

The Scriptures of the Old and New Testament were given by inspiration of God, and are the only sufficient, certain and authoritative rule of all saving knowledge, faith and obedience.

II. God.

There is but one God, the Maker, Preserver and Ruler of all things, having in and of himself, all perfections, and being infinite in them all; and to Him all creatures owe the highest love, reverence and obedience.
III. The Trinity.

God is revealed to us as Father, Son and Holy Spirit each with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence or being.
IV. Providence.

God from eternity, decrees or permits all things that come to pass, and perpetually upholds, directs and governs all creatures and all events; yet so as not in any wise to be author or approver of sin nor to destroy the free will and responsibility of intelligent creatures.

V. Election.

Election is God's eternal choice of some persons unto everlasting life -- not because of foreseen merit in them, but of his mere mercy in Christ -- in consequence of which choice they are called, justified and glorified.


VI. The Fall of Man.

God originally created man in His own image, and free from sin; but, through the temptation of Satan, he transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original holiness and righteousness; whereby his posterity inherit a nature corrupt and wholly opposed to God and His law, are under condemnation, and as soon as they are capable of moral action, become actual transgressors.

VII. The Mediator.

Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, is the divinely appointed mediator between God and man. Having taken upon Himself human nature, yet without sin, He perfectly fulfilled the Law, suffered and died upon the cross for the salvation of sinners. He was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended to His Father, at whose hand He ever liveth to make intercession for His people. He is the only Mediator, the Prophet, Priest and King of the Church, and Sovereign of the Universe.

VIII. Regeneration.

Regeneration is a change of heart, wrought by the Holy Spirit, who quickeneth the dead in trespasses and sins enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the Word of God, and renewing their whole nature, so that they love and practice holiness. It is a work of God's free and special grace alone.

IX. Repentance.

Repentance is an evangelical grace, wherein a person being, by the Holy Spirit, made sensible of the manifold evil of his sin, humbleth himself for it, with godly sorrow, detestation of it, and self-abhorrence, with a purpose and endeavor to walk before God so as to please Him in all things.

X. Faith.

Saving faith is the belief, on God's authority, of whatsoever is revealed in His Word concerning Christ; accepting and resting upon Him alone for justification and eternal life. It is wrought in the heart by the Holy Spirit, and is accompanied by all other saving graces, and leads to a life of holiness.

XI. Justification.

Justification is God's gracious and full acquittal of sinners, who believe in Christ, from all sin, through the satisfaction that Christ has made; not for anything wrought in them or done by them; but on account of the obedience and satisfaction of Christ, they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith.

XII. Sanctification.

Those who have been regenerated are also sanctified, by God's word and Spirit dwelling in them. This sanctification is progressive through the supply of Divine strength, which all saints seek to obtain, pressing after a heavenly life in cordial obedience to all Christ's commands.

XIII. Perseverance of the Saints.

Those whom God hath accepted in the Beloved, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere to the end; and though they may fall, through neglect and temptation, into sin, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, bring reproach on the Church, and temporal judgments on themselves, yet they shall be renewed again unto repentance, and be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

XIV. The Church.

The Lord Jesus is the Head of the Church, which is composed of all his true disciples, and in Him is invested supremely all power for its government. According to his commandment, Christians are to associate themselves into particular societies or churches; and to each of these churches he hath given needful authority for administering that order, discipline and worship which he hath appointed. The regular officers of a Church are Bishops, or Elders, and Deacons.

XV. Baptism.

Baptism is an ordinance of the Lord Jesus, obligatory upon every believer, wherein he is immersed in water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, as a sign of his fellowship with the death and resurrection of Christ, of remission of sins, and of his giving himself up to God, to live and walk in newness of life. It is prerequisite to church fellowship, and to participation in the Lord's Supper.

XVI. The Lord's Supper.

The Lord's Supper is an ordinance of Jesus Christ, to be administered with the elements of bread and wine, and to be observed by his churches till the end of the world. It is in no sense a sacrifice, but is designed to commemorate his death, to confirm the faith and other graces of Christians, and to be a bond, pledge and renewal of their communion with him, and of their church fellowship.

XVII. The Lord's Day.

The Lord's Day is a Christian institution for regular observance, and should be employed in exercises of worship and spiritual devotion, both public and private, resting from worldly employments and amusements, works of necessity and mercy only excepted.

XVIII. Liberty of Conscience.

God alone is Lord of the conscience; and He hath left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men, which are in anything contrary to His word, or not contained in it. Civil magistrates being ordained of God, subjection in all lawful things commanded by them ought to be yielded by us in the Lord, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

XIX. The Resurrection.

The bodies of men after death return to dust, but their spirits return immediately to God -- the righteous to rest with Him; the wicked to be reserved under darkness to the judgment. At the last day, the bodies of all the dead, both just and unjust, will be raised.

XX. The Judgment.

God hath appointed a day, wherein he will judge the world by Jesus Christ, when every one shall receive according to his deeds; the wicked shall go into everlasting punishment; the righteous, into everlasting life.


"...the Abstract of Principles which currently serves, along with the Baptist Faith and Message 2000, as the doctrinal standard at Southern and Southeastern."
 

go2church

Active Member
Site Supporter
I think this is quite an exaggeration. I've never heard any SBCer say the Bible can save you without Jesus, or even imply the possibility. Don't forget this sentance is IN THE SECTION ON SCRIPTURE, not Christ. Revelation means to reveal something...The Bible reveals God, Reveals Jesus. Therefore it is a revelation.



Agreed. The historical evidence for Jesus' life, death, and resurection gives us confidence that what the Gospels say about him is true...that what the epistles say is true...Jesus' own words give us confidence that the OT is true...but none of that means it is somehow incorrect to say the Bible is the revelation of God.

The Bible has revealed God to multitudes of people...especially after the invention of the printing press, which revealed what was lacking in the middle ages when the average person did NOT have access to the Bible, was had to rely on a priest's teaching alone.


Record of the revelation is more accurate and less confusing. I don't want any thought of the possibility of a maybe that the bible and Jesus are on the same plain, they aren't.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The 2000 is now used as a creed, except at Southern Seminary. I would take the approach of finding out what one believes and then determine if take will work. There is room for differences.

Soul freedom, bible freedom, church freedom and religious freedom for me would be essential for someone to affirm.

Also, record of revelation to me is way different then just revelation. Jesus is the revelation, the bible is the record of God revealing himself. To me this is a huge difference.

How so? BOTH would be from and of God, and jesus and the originals are BOTH fully correct!
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Record of the revelation is more accurate and less confusing. I don't want any thought of the possibility of a maybe that the bible and Jesus are on the same plain, they aren't.

they are in the sense of BOTH being fully a revelation of God to man, as jesus was the Word become flesh, while the originals were the word put down to written form!

So BOTH were perfect reveltions from God to us, but we ONLY worship the one who was God incarnated, jesus!
 
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go2church

Active Member
Site Supporter
How so? BOTH would be from and of God, and jesus and the originals are BOTH fully correct!

Jesus wasn't just FROM God, he was God

In theory the originals are fully correct, we don't actually have them so no one really knows. It is at this point a statement of faith.

Can the bible save you? No

Now you see why it is important to keep a clear distinction between what can save and what cannot.
 

Thomas Helwys

New Member
So you believe there should be ZERO uniformity of doctrine in an association of baptist Churches? No guiding principles or basic set of beliefs to be a seminary professor or a missionary?

Why not just admit that it's not the way the 2000 is used, but rather it's content that bothers you...and that if it were less stringent, you would have no problem using it as a criteria for hiring seminary professors?

(or if the above is not true, explain why).

Where did I say that?

If anyone claims to be Baptist, either an individual or a body of believers, they should hold to Baptist principles. The 2000 BF&M does not.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You just did what theb person you replied to said she/he was afraid of, made the Bible and Jesus equal, thus deifying the Bible.

No, rather that they BOTH are the perfect revealtion of God to us, its just that Jesus IS Gid in the human flesh , so he revealed perfectly to us who God is, while the originals Perfectly gave us the thoughts He had for us!

We worship JUST the creator/saviour, but BOTH equally in the sense of perfect!
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jesus wasn't just FROM God, he was God

In theory the originals are fully correct, we don't actually have them so no one really knows. It is at this point a statement of faith.

Can the bible save you? No

Now you see why it is important to keep a clear distinction between what can save and what cannot.

BOTh, again, were perfect in what they revealed to us about God...

jesus IS God in human flesh, while the originals were his thoughts in written form!

both totally perfect, but we worship the lord jesus, not his book to us!
 

12strings

Active Member
Hi Thomas, I'm trying to reconcile the following:


If anyone claims to be Baptist, either an individual or a body of believers, they should hold to Baptist principles. The 2000 BF&M does not.

What I'm reading here: "There SHOULD BE a standard by which Baptists agree with in order to work together, and those who don't hold to such Baptist principles should leave."

In other words, conform to our creedal coercion and believe like I/we do or leave. Such non-Baptist thinking didn't happen until the fundamentalist cabal took over.

What I'm reading here: "It is UN-BAPTIST to require someone to conform to some standard in order to work together."

THESE SEEM CONTRADICTORY....what am I missing?
 
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