Bible Modesty - Part 1

[Rufus_1611]

The Bible, the Word of God, says the heart is desperatly wicked. It is not Herb's Bible and Rufus' Bible.

This expression is found only in Jeremiah 17:9 and only contained within two versions. From past posts you have indicated that your Bible is the NKJV and as it turns out, your Bible contains this expression as well. However, not all the books say that the heart is desperately wicked.

Jeremiah 17:9

KJV - "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Herb and Rufus' Bible)

NKJV - "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?" (Saturneptune's Bible)

NASB - "The (A)heart is more (B)deceitful than all else And is desperately (C)sick; Who can understand it?"

NIV - "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure.Who can understand it?"

Amplified - "The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly perverse and corrupt and severely, mortally sick! Who can know it [perceive, understand, be acquainted with his own heart and mind]?(A)"

ESV - "The heart is deceitful above all things,and desperately sick;who can understand it?"​

 

[Rufus_1611]

It wouldn't be the first time people have come here trying to degrade women and make us trash by calling us lesbians and similar junk.

Their was a time when some women (particularly Christian women) found the dress of Hooters girls, SI swimsuit calendars, Playboy bunnies, Jordache Jeans commercials and other such contraband to be degrading to women. Now the men that speak out against such things are the degraders?

This guy has a real problem is he focuses on breast, crotches, buttocks and thighs. His focus needs to be on the Lord, and when thses ideas come to him, run from them to God.
But a lass, it isn't his fault if this is his focus in life.

I've seen Herb speak out on Bible version issues, Kingdom accountability other issues on this board. What do you have to substantiate that this is the "focus in his life"?

 

[Rufus_1611]

No one ever responded to my post:

Let me tell you a story about something that happened in Taiwan when the Christian missionaries went there. They not only imparted Bible, but insisted on some cultural changes. One of them was that toddlers and babies wear pants/diapers. Up until that time, they had been allowed to run around naked. So the people, thinking that Christianity was also tied to culture, started making sure their little ones were dressed.

And the little ones started dying.

Not just getting sick. Dying.

Taiwan is quite humid in the late spring and summer. Fungus infections which cannot thrive in the open air were killing the children.

If your idea of feminine modesty demands dresses and not pants, then that is what you must follow yourself in your own home. If my idea of feminine modesty is not yours, don't hold me to your ideas. As long as I am feminine and modest, and as long as any Christian girl is, then back off. Behavior is a whole lot more important.

I didn't respond to your post as I did not feel it to be germaine to this discussion. When we start promoting diapers for women in Taiwan then you will have an excellent argument for why this has health complications. In the meantime, dresses for ladies in America should not be impacted by the Biblical instruction for modesty and covering their nakedness.

 

[tinytim]

Their was a time when some women (particularly Christian women) found the dress of Hooters girls, SI swimsuit calendars, Playboy bunnies, Jordache Jeans commercials and other such contraband to be degrading to women. Now the men that speak out against such things are the degraders?

I've seen Herb speak out on Bible version issues, Kingdom accountability other issues on this board. What do you have to substantiate that this is the "focus in his life"?

With all do respect, Rufus, I don't think anyone here is upholding the dress of Hooters girls, or any of the others you mentioned.
Yes, what you mentioned is degrading to women, but the average woman wearing jeans is nothing like a playboy bunny.

 

[Rufus_1611]

Yeah,... in it they will say that men are not allowed to wear shorts, or short sleaved shirts, and women's heads must be covered....

Oh, wait... that was the Taliban board I was reading.

On one hand we have the extreme view that Christian women should be able to dress anyway they please because of God's grace, the other extreme is that women should be oppressed and have their glory hidden. Both of these are extremism and neither has been promoted by the individuals who support the OP.

 

[Rufus_1611]

With all do respect, Rufus, I don't think anyone here is upholding the dress of Hooters girls, or any of the others you mentioned.
Yes, what you mentioned is degrading to women, but the average woman wearing jeans is nothing like a playboy bunny.

Tell me, according to your worldview, what is unbiblical about the dress of Hooters girls? Would this not be an acceptable vocation for a Christian woman if t-shirts and shorts are considered acceptable dress because of grace?

 

[Dale-c]

I've just looked in on this board for the first time in months if not years (I usually stick to Yahoo groups) and I saw an old name which I remember with some affection - Herb Evans. And it seems he's banned. Whatever happened???

Liz

I am not sure, I have been away from this board for a while myself. I don't know him myself but I do know people that do know him.
I would be interested to know what the reason as well.

 

[blackbird]

Tell me, according to your worldview, what is unbiblical about the dress of Hooters girls? Would this not be an acceptable vocation for a Christian woman if t-shirts and shorts are considered acceptable dress because of grace?

Its funny what we try to hide under the invisible robes of God's grace!!!

A Christian woman working at Hooters ought to be ashamed ---- not only for donning such appearal ---- but they ought to be doubley shamed that they would allow someone other than their husband to "gawk" at them

But go ahead on with the invisible cloak of grace --- yeh, right!!!!

Blackbird

 

[Bro Tony]

I've just looked in on this board for the first time in months if not years (I usually stick to Yahoo groups) and I saw an old name which I remember with some affection - Herb Evans. And it seems he's banned. Whatever happened???

Liz

Has Herb been banned? He was here yesterday, but I don't see his name on the member's list. Do we have a problem?

Bro Tony

 

[Helen]

Its funny what we try to hide under the invisible robes of God's grace!!!

A Christian woman working at Hooters ought to be ashamed ---- not only for donning such appearal ---- but they ought to be doubley shamed that they would allow someone other than their husband to "gawk" at them

But go ahead on with the invisible cloak of grace --- yeh, right!!!!

Blackbird

ummm, blackbird, I don't think that is what is being discussed here. I think, if I have read the thread correctly, that all of us who are saying that women not wearing pants etc., is a legalistic thing, are also saying that women should be feminine and modest no matter what they are wearing.

It was Rufus who dragged through the red herring about Hooters. No one here is claiming that that is what modesty is!

And, by the way, to the others of the legalists who claim that what a person wears leads to sexual orientation -- please get your heads out of your respective holes in the ground and take a look at the studies that have been done. When a man is domineering in the home, it is more likely (but still not likely in and of itself) that a daughter will prefer other women. Likewise, when a woman is a nag and domineering in the home, the son may turn to other men rather than risk another woman like mom. People with parents like that tend to rebel one way or another, whether it is by divorcing themselves from their parents' faith and values, becoming violent themselves, or other ways.

The other extreme has also shown up, where, if one parent is the proverbial dishrag, the child of the opposite sex will sometimes prefer the same sex partner as him or herself in order to express hatred of the behavior of that one parent.

God is very, very clear about parents not frustrating their children. Displine, yes, but the way we raise our children has a great deal to do with the way they turn out. And the way we raise our children also has a great deal to do with the kind of people we ourselves are. Legalism tends to breed either total unthinking submissiveness or rebellion. God created us to be thinking, reasoning, individual people. Crush that and consequences will be seen.

I think you will also find a greater correlation between divorced parents and homosexuality than people are willing to admit, as well.

 

[Rufus_1611]

It was Rufus who dragged through the red herring about Hooters. No one here is claiming that that is what modesty is!

It should be easy then to make an argument for why it isn't modest. If because of grace, Christian women can wear pants, t-shirts, shorts, and bikinis then why does that same grace not apply to Hooter wear? If it is immodest, what verses would you cite to rebuke a Christian sister for becoming a Hooter girl?

 

[Amy.G]

On one hand we have the extreme view that Christian women should be able to dress anyway they please because of God's grace, the other extreme is that women should be oppressed and have their glory hidden. Both of these are extremism and neither has been promoted by the individuals who support the OP.

I think we can all agree that this is extremism, but what is the middle ground? And who decides? Is there some sort of Christian manual that I'm not aware of? Should I check with you and Herb before I get dressed in the morning? Can I wear my Titans football jersey? Nope. Too manly and wouldn't look good with a long flowing skirt. You can't just say "dress modestly", not define it, and then criticize us for not following your rules of modest dress. We have to follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit above all man made rules. Men will lust after women no matter what they wear. I trust the Holy Spirit to tell me what's appropriate and what's not and He has never told me that wearing jeans is wrong or unfeminine. If you really believe what you say, then we should all wear uniforms like the Amish or the Arabs and cut personal decision out of it completely.

 

[Amy.G]

By the way Rufus, do you dress modestly? And who defines what modest dress for a man is anyway?

 

[Brother Bob]

It seems from experience throughout the 34 years I pastored that what is modest to one person is not modest to another. I have heard some with bikinis on say, "it don't condemn me", as if that is the rule.
Well, I think women should dress modest as I do the same for men. A few years ago, the french designed a pair of paints with a pouch for the men. I am sure glad that fell by the wayside for there are surely some who would of wore them. Also, they designed a purse like women for men and that went by the wayside. For those who say that tight pants on women don't cause men to look are just blinded. As Helen said overseas the children had to go naked to keep from dying, good thing the same was not true for grownups. I really think everyone knows what is modest or it would not be discussed on BB so much. I know this, when I run into a sister at Wal-Mart and if she is not dressed properly, she feels unconfortable around me. That tells me she already knew, she went a little to far in the dress code. I used to be real hard on pants but have mellowed over the years as long as they are not so tight they look like they are melt in them and I am still not too fond of blue jeans. Just my opinion, hope I don't get banned over it.
If clothing reveal the form of the private parts of eithe male or female, with the exception of the breast of the women and then if the cut is so low that they reveal the breast then all of it is wrong. I think that is what modest means to cover and not wrap around the private parts of ourselves.
My wife has certainly informed me that sometimes I sit in a revealing position and told to "watch it!!!!".


If we dress in such a manner and this would include "hooter girls" as to cause the opposite sex to lust after us then it is sin. Does someone have to explain to you why the hooter girls dress as they do? So, if you women think showing your clevage is being modest and in style, I got news for you. Also, when mini skirts were in style, some of our sisters sat on the front row and showed all the way up and had to be told to cover themselves. The old statement of "it don't offend me", is used for anyone who wants to go too far.

 

[Helen]

It should be easy then to make an argument for why it isn't modest. If because of grace, Christian women can wear pants, t-shirts, shorts, and bikinis then why does that same grace not apply to Hooter wear? If it is immodest, what verses would you cite to rebuke a Christian sister for becoming a Hooter girl?

I am curious why you are lumping bikinis with pants?

I am also curious as to why you think a follower of Christ would become a Hooter girl -- has this happened, in your personal knowledge?

Modesty means not dressing to excite someone sexually and to dress in such a way as is appropriate to the occasion and not cause embarrassment to others. Because of this, there is definitely a cultural aspect, which I brought up before and which you ignored. Many tribes in Africa, Christian or not, do not consider a woman's breasts to be sexually provocative. They are the means by which the little ones gain nourishment. Therefore bare breasts are not considered immodest. Here, yes. There, no.

But in both places, regardless of dress, there is behavior which is considered provocative and immodest.

Please understand I am not advocating nudity at all. For me, in our culture, modesty means keeping a good deal more of me covered than the aforesaid natives of Africa feel necessary. It's also colder here....

However I, for one, will not and cannot and dare not do the Holy Spirit's job for Him in informing people of other cultures what is proper dress and what is not.

Similarly, here in the United States of America, if a woman is clearly a woman and is modestly dressed in whatever she is wearing, who am I to tell her she is wrong?

The Hooters things is just a red herring you are dragging across the argument, as is the mention of bikinis. I would look absurd, to say the least, in a bikini, even in the privacy of my own home with my husband locked out of the bathroom! However in a good pair of jeans, I'm quite comfortable and I do know that no one is going to mistake me for a man at any distance short of needing binoculars!

 

[swaimj]

If it is immodest, what verses would you cite to rebuke a Christian sister for becoming a Hooter girl?

Rufus, the scripturall instruction is that women should wear modest apparel. What H******* girls wear is not modest. Case closed! NNE on this board disagrees with this! What is the point of bringing it up?
Again, your act of raising the issue and using the name of the restaraunt puts a mental image in the mind of every man on this board that is not spiritually helpful. YOU are as much a stumbling block to men on this board as any girl who works in the restaraunt!

 

[Deacon]

Sooooo,



the real question is:



How....


do....


you....


know...



what....


a....


Hooter....


girl...


wears? :laugh:


Rob

 

[Amy.G]

Yes Rufus, how DO you know what a hooter's girl wears?

 

[annsni]

For me, am I comfortable in what I wear? Do I feel like I have to keep pulling things up or down to cover what I want covered? Can I stand in front of my brothers, my father, my pastor - even God - in what I'm wearing?? As Brother Bob said, if I bumped into someone in the store, would I feel embarrassed (I have but for another reason - no make-up and dressing TOO comfortably and messy)? Right now, I'm wearing jeans and a V-neck fleece top. Nothing is showing that shouldn't be showing. The jeans are NOT tight at all and show very little shape (most of my pants fit this way - can't find casual pants that fit well). Last night I went to a party and wore a lovely pair of cream pants with lose legs, a red turtleneck sweater and black boots. My husband complimented me and I felt VERY comfortable in what I was wearing and never once gave a thought to how I looked. To me, that is modest. My husband is a Godly man and I go by what he says looks good or if anything is cut too low or whatever (although I don't think I've ever bought anything like that - tried on, yes, but never purchased). He is my authority and I'll listen to him.

Ann

 

[Rufus_1611]

I think we can all agree that this is extremism, but what is the middle ground? And who decides? Is there some sort of Christian manual that I'm not aware of?

Yes. It is called the Holy Bible (look for Authorized Version or King James Version in small letters).

Should I check with you and Herb before I get dressed in the morning?

No. You should seek guidance from your husband.

Can I wear my Titans football jersey? Nope. Too manly and wouldn't look good with a long flowing skirt.

Why would you desire to? How does a football jersey accentuate your feminine beauty and why would you desire to wear that which pertains to a man?

You can't just say "dress modestly", not define it, and then criticize us for not following your rules of modest dress.

Brother Herb provided 3-5 pages worth of material defining modest dress which I endorse.

We have to follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit above all man made rules.

We have to follow the word of God.

Men will lust after women no matter what they wear.

Disagree.

I trust the Holy Spirit to tell me what's appropriate and what's not and He has never told me that wearing jeans is wrong or unfeminine.

How are you expecting this communication to be transmitted exactly?

If you really believe what you say, then we should all wear uniforms like the Amish or the Arabs and cut personal decision out of it completely.

These cultures are far closer to a Biblical example of modesty then the bulk of America is.