Bible Study: God's Foreknowledge

[Van]

I do not think the grammar allows the possiblity that the Calvinist view is valid. I am not removing words, I am attempting to show through sanctification and faith is tied to chose, not salvation. If you do not know how prepositional phrases drop out which showing the main idea of the sentence, there is nothing I can say.

 

[jbh28]

I do not think the grammar allows the possiblity that the Calvinist view is valid. I am not removing words, I am attempting to show through sanctification and faith is tied to chose, not salvation. If you do not know how prepositional phrases drop out which showing the main idea of the sentence, there is nothing I can say.

You can't always do that to prepositional phrases. You are talking about independent clauses. This is a dependent clause. Also, "through" is a preposition as well, along with "by" and "in." So I guess we can take that out too. :rolleyes"

Also, you didn't give how you would word with "proper grammar" the sentence in my view. How would you word that?

What you need to do is determine what the propositions modify. Is it an adverbial phrase or an adjective phrase? If it is an adverbial, it would modify "choosing," but if it is an adjective, it would modify "salvation."

I say it's an adjective phrase.

I saw something in the corder of the room.
Here we have to propositional phrases. The first one, "in the corner," is an adjective phrase. It modifies the noun "something." The second phrase, "of the room" modifies the noun "corner."

Here in the passage, we have an adjective phrase.

God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
"from the beginning" (or "as the firstfruits") modifies "chosen"
"for salvation" would modify the verb "chosen."
"through sanctification" would modify the noun "salvation"
"by the spirit" would modify "sanctification"
"[through] faith" would modify "salvation"
"in the truth" would modify "faith"



In addition, how is sanctification and faith tied to choosing. It says "through" (meaning, by means of) sanctification and belief. How does that work in your view if it isn't about salvation? On what grounds do you say that this is an adverbial phrase that modifies "chosen" instead of the adjacent noun "salvation"? Also, who is being sanctified? God is the one choosing here. He has chosen through sanctification? Who is being sanctified and what does it mean? What does "belief in the truth" mean if not for salvation but election. Who is doing the believing here? What purpose is the believing if it isn't unto salvation.

If you are going to say that it is for choosing and not salvation, you need to have a lot better support for that position.

 

[Iconoclast]

So,

God needs man's assistance

to "discover" who the elect are? How can God discover anything if he knows all things? And why does God need man's help to save people? And if it is so important that salvation be all of God, why does he allow men to work with him? And doesn't God limit himself by allowing men to preach the gospel? If for example there was a populated island that had never heard the gospel, isn't God limited of who he can discover who is elect there if no man goes there and preaches the gospel?

Boy, for a Calvinist, you sure seem to make God dependent on man in this statement.

Winman,
you do not understand my post.or you are putting ideas in my post that are not there.[i think you do this sometime]

1] God does not need anything from man or any other creature
2God knows all things..re-read my post
3] God ordains the means of salvation

so when you say all this;

God needs man's assistance, why does God need man's ,doesn't God limit himself , isn't God limited ,

your whole post is off.

19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity

 

[Iconoclast]

Hi Winman, yes when God credits our faith as righteousness, Romans 4:5, He puts us spiritually in Christ, 1 Corinthians 1:30, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, the Spirit spiritually baptizes us into Christ, and therefore this election for salvation is accomplished through the sactification by the Spirit and faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

Van,
You keep posting this false idea.No one believes this but you.Nobody.

 

[Iconoclast]

Wow, just wow. Total misrepresentation of what Iconoclast said. Where did he say that "God needs man's assistance to discover who the elect are"? Where did he say that GOD didn't know who the elect are? The answer is no where. you twisted his statements around just to take another jab at his post. your behavior is very unchristlike. you may disagree, but at least act like Christ in your disagreements. Taking someones statements and twisting them around is being dishonest. i accidentally did that with you yesterday and apologized for it, but that's very unusual for me.

jbh,
It is puzzling how this happens..I was surprised to read it myself

This is how scriptures get mis read also.

 

[Iconoclast]

To me, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is straightforward, God chose them for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. Through sanctification and belief in the truth describes the mechanism of election, not the mechanism of salvation. I am not an English expert, but if you diagrammed the English sentence, you could drop our "for salvation" to below the line because it is a preposition, and simply have chose you through sanctification and belief. What I believe Paul is saying is: When God credits our faith as righteousness, He places us spiritually "in Christ."

Van,
this is not how believers understand this verse or Gods election.here is how it is taught;
[QUOTEhttp://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc10.html][/QUOTE]

Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )
2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )

 

[Iconoclast]

Thanks for agreeing with me in part.

Where we part company is that belief in the truth is the human part of
election. He chose us through belief in the truth, therefore it is God's action of
crediting our (worthless) faith as righteousness that is the mechanism of election for salvation.

Wrong,and heretical.God is never subject to the creature.

 

[Robert Snow]

Van,
You keep posting this false idea.No one believes this but you.Nobody.

You don't know what everybody else believes. I agree with the posting you say "nobody" agrees with. You don't agree because it goes against Calvinistic teachings.

 

[Robert Snow]

Wrong,and heretical.God is never subject to the creature.

What would the response from the moderators be if I declared Calvinism to be heretical? Don't be so quick to call others heretics, even though the administration seem to allow some people more latitude than other here.

 

[Rippon]

What would the response from the moderators be if I declared Calvinism to be heretical? Don't be so quick to call others heretics, even though the administration seem to allow some people more latitude than other here.

Well,as I documented on 2/27/11 --you have repeatedly called Calvinism false doctrine and a false gospel. The admins have been rather lenient to allow your frequent postings saying such things. You have no room to complain Robert. You are the one who has been given a lot of latitude.

 

[Van]

Mistaken doctrine is false doctrine

I think it is ok for folks to think some other viewpoint is mistaken and therefore my logical necessity false doctrine. But simply to post it is wrong and heretical without supporting the statement biblically seems likely to derail the thread into personality.

The topic of this thread is using the Bible to define what foreknew, foreknow and foreknowledge meant to the original authors. Based on my study, I concluded the idea was using knowledge obtained in the past for some purpose in the present, and has nothing to do with foreseeing the future.

Since this view is inconsistent with Calvinism, the defenders of that view said I was mistaken and offered it meant having a relationship with someone before creation in the mind of God. I offered that believing in that manifest conjecture rather than what the Bible actually said was weak.

Next I said contrary to God choosing us individually before He created us, the Bible says God chose us individually when He spiritually put us in Christ, and that view is substantiated by 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

 

[Luke2427]

I think it is ok for folks to think some other viewpoint is mistaken and therefore my logical necessity false doctrine. But simply to post it is wrong and heretical without supporting the statement biblically seems likely to derail the thread into personality.

The topic of this thread is using the Bible to define what foreknew, foreknow and foreknowledge meant to the original authors. Based on my study, I concluded the idea was using knowledge obtained in the past for some purpose in the present, and has nothing to do with foreseeing the future.

Since this view is inconsistent with Calvinism, the defenders of that view said I was mistaken and offered it meant having a relationship with someone before creation in the mind of God. I offered that believing in that manifest conjecture rather than what the Bible actually said was weak.

Next I said contrary to God choosing us individually before He created us, the Bible says God chose us individually when He spiritually put us in Christ, and that view is substantiated by 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

Yea, you hit a tender spot with me.

I can take almost any insult, even heresy, if the person who hurls it will have the backbone to back it up with their reasons.

If they supply reasons then we can examine them and see if they are sound or just stupid.

So, some of these guys love to drive-by post and hurl smart alek remarks and run off without having the character to back up their remarks with reasons.

That is low class and trashy in my book.

If you think someone is a heretic- say it- I suppose that is OK.
But then back up your claim with your reasons so that all can scrutinize your reasons and discover if they are sound or if you are just full of bull and a jerk.

 

[Van]

Whom He foreknew

Romans 8:29 using the term "Whom He foreknew" and Calvinist doctrine says that means the individuals God elected before the foundation of the world. On the other side of the street, I stepped out with "Whom He foreknew" refers to the corporately elected target group of His redemption plan.

Then I said the Calvinist view could not be correct because then folks would be individually elected twice and that was not sound. I offered several verses, one mistakenly, such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13, James 2:5, 1 Peter 2:9-10, and 1 Corinthians 1:26-28 supporting God choosing us while we were physically alive, living without mercy and not yet a people chosen by God. Some were chosen while living poor but few while living rich. Basically I believe the evidence for election for salvation during our physical life is strong. And I believe we are chosen on the basis of God crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness.

 

[webdog]

Wrong,and heretical.God is never subject to the creature.

Since you are doing the very thing you accuse of, I will quote you here

This is how scriptures get mis read also.

 

[jbh28]

Next I said contrary to God choosing us individually before He created us, the Bible says God chose us individually when He spiritually put us in Christ, and that view is substantiated by 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

did you see my previous post?

 

[Van]

Reply to jbh28,

Basically there is nothing I can say, your post illustrates that you do not understand grammar the way I do.

When you rolled eyes, because both prepositional phases (for or to salvation) and through sanctification and faith) could be dropped out, you missed what I was saying. Both are connected to "chose you" We were chosen for salvation and we were chosen through sanctification and faith.

How would it be written if Paul's idea was the Calvinist view? Chose you for salvation AND saved you through sanctification and faith. But the grammar does not allow that reading, in my opinion.

 

[jbh28]

Basically there is nothing I can say, your post illustrates that you do not understand grammar the way I do.

When you rolled eyes, because both prepositional phases (for or to salvation) and through sanctification and faith) could be dropped out, you missed what I was saying. Both are connected to "chose you" We were chosen for salvation and we were chosen through sanctification and faith.

How would it be written if Paul's idea was the Calvinist view? Chose you for salvation AND saved you through sanctification and faith. But the grammar does not allow that reading, in my opinion.

I understand grammar just fine. You are stating its an independent clause and that it modifies something other than the adjacent word. Its up to you to show that us the case, something you jane not done. If my post shows I don't understand grammar like you, then you need to do some refreshing on adjective and adverbial phrases.


And your change isn't necessary. There is nothing gramatically that keeps the adjective phrase from modifying its adjacent word

Now as far as doctrine goes, I don't base my theology on this verse alone. There is a preposition here and that means that the definitions can because broad and difficult to grasp without looking at other passages.

 

[Van]

Reply to jbh28

As I said, there is nothing I can say.

The fact that you are saying my view uses through sanctification and faith as an independent clause makes my case. I have no comment on your grasp of grammar, all I am saying is your grasp is very different from mine. Lets leave it there.

 

[jbh28]

As I said, there is nothing I can say.

The fact that you are saying my view uses through sanctification and faith as an independent clause makes my case. I have no comment on your grasp of grammar, all I am saying is your grasp is very different from mine. Lets leave it there.

It's not a matter of grasp. Grammar is grammar. You don't make up your own rules. You have said that the phrase "through sanctification..." cannot be an adjective phrase but and adverbial phrase. Please share with us why you say that instead of it being and adjective phrase modifying the adjacent term.
Does "by the spirit" modify chosen or sanctification? What reason do you put "by the spirit" modifying "sanctification" but not through? What about "in the truth"? What does that modify and what reason do you have.

don't just say we look at grammar differently. There isn't room for differences here. It is what it is. Please share with us the rule you are using. Just saying we look at it differently is a cop out.


For review...
"from the beginning" (or "as the firstfruits") modifies "chosen"
"for salvation" would modify the verb "chosen."
"through sanctification" would modify the noun "salvation"
"by the spirit" would modify "sanctification"
"[through] faith" would modify "salvation"
"in the truth" would modify "faith"

 

[Jarthur001]

I offered several verses, one mistakenly, such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13..........

Hello Van,

Good to meet you. I don't have much time this month to "play" ...but I have read a few of your post. You seem to place a lot of weight in how you read 2 Thess 2:13. Really, its kinda hard to find many post where you don't bring this up. So I think its fair to say, this is your pet verse in the debate. I would like to go over it with you.

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

We will get to the main subject later, but for now I want to look these words:

"at through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth"

1) what does sanctification mean?
2) Who does the sanctifying?
3) being that the greek primary preposition "en" (through) is used here as it relates to sanctification, what do you feel this is saying? In other words...election through sanctification....what does that mean?
​

I want to offer one meaning because of time, and see if you agree.

We are chosen to salvation, through the work of Holy Spirit who sets us apart from the rest of the world.

Would you agree with this so far?

I understand the weight you place is on the next part, which I hope we can look at next.

James