Featured Biblical Atonement (Part 4....but who's counting)

Genesis 9:

6Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man his blood will be shed;
for in His own image
God has made mankind.​

Deuteronomy 19:

16If a false witness testifies against someone, accusing him of a crime, 17both parties to the dispute must stand in the presence of the LORD, before the priests and judges who are in office at that time. 18The judges shall investigate thoroughly, and if the witness is proven to be a liar who has falsely accused his brother, 19you must do to him as he intended to do to his brother. So you must purge the evil from among you. 20Then the rest of the people will hear and be afraid, and they will never again do anything so evil among you. 21You must show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, and foot for foot.
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Completely off topic. These verses are not about the atonement sacrifices, but a mere distraction of one who is attempting to distract from the truth Scripture presents concerning the satisfaction of sacrifices and offerings is the focus rather then substitution.

 

We then would seem to understand the same texts differently.

The notion that the Biblical understanding called penal substitutional atonement to be a theory is from what I understand is an early 20th century invention.

 

Do you believe that God the father Himself was the One who nailed Jesus to that Cross?

 

At the very moment Jesus was paying for the sins of all of His own, He experience being forsaken by the father!

 

The death of Jesus [propitiated the wrath of the father towards us as sinners, and that ONLY can happen if Jesus had imputed to Him our sins, and that the father treated Him as if it was us on that Cross!

 

"For" can mean on behalf of, that being instead of. ὑπέρ Used in Romans 5:8, 1 Corinthians 15:3 translated using the Fnglish word "for." Christ in fact died so lost sinners can be and so are saved from perishing.

 

he died in the place of us!

 

Read what the verse state!

Does it say that God the Father nailed the Son to the cross?

Or, is Peter pointing out to the crowd that their cries to "crucify Him" were placing everyone (the all inclusive "you") as complicit with the soldiers who drove the spikes through the Redeemer's body?

 

You might say that, but under what conditions was the Son forsaken? When were the sins "payed for" (I do not like that term - for it implies something or someone was owed. That is not accurate with the Scriptures).



Hebrews does present a different picture. Hebrews 9:

11But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) 12he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. 13For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, 14how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

15Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
​

Hebrews statement shows no wrath from God, no abandonment from God, and no reason for PSA thinking.

The shedding of blood brought the remission of sins - that is Scripture.

Hebrews points to the exact moment such took place and the results.

 

Don't you mean καταλλάσσω?

 

No, for you assume that prior to death comes the judgement.

That is backwards from the Scripture presentation. Hebrews 9:

27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.​

So what happened to the sin(s) of the believers, for it is Scriptures that state there is no condemnation to those in Christ:

Again from the same chapter in Hebrews:

11But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
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And just a bit further in that chapter it states:

23Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
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The whole thinking of PSA is just not foundationally sound in comparison to the truth of the Scriptures.

The above passage from Hebrews 9 exposes the PSA thinking for the error it conjures in the heart and mind of those that embrace it.

Only by Scripture and the acceptance of the Scriptures will such error be set aside.

 

You need to find a Scripture that states that "Christ died in the place of us."

This is very important, so please, please find that Scripture!!!

 

@JonC , @37818

May I ask why you are coming at this from the Greek?

Is it not already plain that "huper" does not conform to "instead" but the preposition is used as an "endowment" or as a positional expression of placement as one is "over" someone or something, or as that which is accomplished in the "interest" of someone or something?

Is there anyplace that "huper" is used with the thinking of replacement as with "instead?"

I just don't remember, and you both being so much nearer the languages, please help my recall!

 

I have a question that I hope both Jon C and Agedman would answer: I have been perusing your threads on atonement for a while (not exhaustively) and found a lot of what has been said to be compelling. I also have always been taught and more or less assumed PST. One question this conversation leaves me with is one I think that PSA (thus far) doesn't account for:

If Christ is forensically "paying a debt owed to God" and "taking God's wrath in our place", thus satisfying the demands of "justice" as understood/assumed by PST: Than can it be at all correct to say we are "forgiven"? It seems to me that although ya'll haven't elucidated that question (at least that I've seen). It would seem that you guys are suggesting that it is nonsense to speak of sins as "forgiven" if someone else simply pays the debt for us.... Is that part of the argument that you are making?

For instance, the analogy (you've probably heard it) of a fine owed by law and handed down by a just judge for a crime that is paid for by someone who loves us (Jesus in this instance) in order to satisfy the demands of justice....may get us, the guilty party out of paying said fine, but, no one would claim that we were "forgiven" that debt to the State. The State forgave nothing. The judge forgave nothing. A pardon is "forgiveness" and doesn't require someone else to go to prison in our stead. Don't let me put words in your mouths, but it seems like this is something like one of the arguments you guys are making.

 

FYI, Ezekiel 18:4, ". . . the soul that sinneth, it shall die. . . ."
Matthew 20:28, ". . . to give his life a ransom for many. . . ." . . . soul . . . .

 

Oh dear! I've dealt with this so many times that I'm sick of it, but here we go again.
If I post a letter for someone, I post it, he doesn't. I post it instead of him.
If I pay a bill on someone's behalf, I pay it, he doesn't. I pay it instead of him.
If I die for someone, I die, he doesn't. I die instead of him.
And so on. How many examples would you like?