Biblical Chastening

[James_Newman]

James, I went right to the end after this thread seemed to go astray, so someone else might have pointed this out so here is my take on your inquiry: God has a reason for chastising His children:

To modify their behavior so that He can bless and reward them in this life:

Hebrews 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.​

The fruit of righteousness is its own reward.

HankD

28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcasses upon the carcasses of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.

What blessing and reward do you suppose these folks will receive once they have been chastised? Surely their behaviour will be modified, as dead folks don't do much.

 

[James_Newman]

I agree. This is painfully obvious. As others have pointed out so well, there's no point to delayed discipline. Doesn't anyone here have children or pets? If your dog pooped on the carpet, would you punish the dog a week later? Of course not. Everyone knows that the only way to teach the dog properly is to discipline it immediately and consistently. A week later it won't even have a clue why you're punishing it. Same goes for raising children. Only a swift, consistent, and just punishment is truly effective.

So ME people can call the 1,000 years in the lake of fire/hell whatever they want, but if they try to call it "corrective", they're even more wacko than one could imagine.

Does the bible teach that all discipline is swift and immediate? How long was it between David's sin and his chastisement? Do I look like a dog to you? Oh, I forgot you can't see me.


Ecclesiastes 8:11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

 

[HankD]

28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcasses upon the carcasses of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.

What blessing and reward do you suppose these folks will receive once they have been chastised? Surely their behaviour will be modified, as dead folks don't do much.

Dear brother, these threats were given to Israel under another Covenant. The Covenant of the Law which ends with a curse:

Deuteronomy 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.​

We are His children, not the Nation of Israel.​

Hebrews 12
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.​

HankD​

 

[J. Jump]

Here is a problem that I see with the "chastisement can only happen in this lifetime" crowd . . . the chastisement has to be received in a positive manner in order for it to have an impact.

Meaning if I refuse to be disciplined as a child then chastisement has not met it's proper goal. And what the final conclusion of this position has is that you can refuse the chastisement throughout your lifetime and still receive your small slice of paradise pie or you simply write those people off as unsaved.

Problem is that Scripture paints a difference picture so that neither of those options are valid. If you don't receive your discipline now God doesn't wipe your sins under the carpet and say "Ah that's okay - I know you were a rebel, but here have some paradise pie anyhow."

If you don't confess your sins in this age they don't get swept under the heavenly carpet in the next age. Sin MUST be dealt with because of Who God.

And we have two choices. We can accept His dealings with it now or we can face the just and due consequences of them at the JSOC.

 

[Brother Bob]

I detect a lie.
How dare you say that you have the mind of Christ if at the same time you can say that you may be watching the wrong kind of TV show. Would Christ watch the wrong kind of TV show? Would Christ spend his time watching TV?
It is Christ that has the mind of Christ. __________________
DHK

1Cr 2:16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
So, you call me a liar once again.

You talked about the JOSC. I hope you don't stand before the JOSC with a unforgiven sin of adultery. Then you will find out what a sin unto death is.
You all wish it were the natural death but the natural death can come from man, and I am talking about the "sin unto death" that the death come from God.
An early natural death would not take away a man's sin of adultery. When Judgement comes, he would still have that sin of adultery and the scripture says there shall be NO adulterers in heaven.
That being the word of God, which you all seem to work around so easy.

Natural death comes because Adam sinned, It was appointed unto man "once" to die, not twice or three times but "once".

1Jo 5:16If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

1Jo 5:17All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Rom 7:25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Seems to me, a person who keeps saying God's children can commit any sin that the world can commit, is either guilty of committing such sin, or getting ready to. Or possible making an excuse for someone close to him. IMO

Jhn 15:19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

 

[DHK]

1Cr 2:16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
So, you call me a liar once again.

You talked about the JOSC. I hope you don't stand before the JOSC with a unforgiven sin of adultery. Then you will find out what a sin unto death is.
You all wish it were the natural death but the natural death can come from man, and I am talking about the "sin unto death" that the death come from God.
An early natural death would not take away a man's sin of adultery. When Judgement comes, he would still have that sin of adultery and the scripture says there shall be NO adulterers in heaven.
That being the word of God, which you all seem to work around so easy.

Natural death comes because Adam sinned, It was appointed unto man "once" to die, not twice or three times but "once".

I do not justify adultery FYI. However, do you have any solid Biblical proof that adultery is a sin unto death. I believe it is all in your imagination. And to claim that you know this for sure is to claim that you are in the position of God. Only God knows what these sins are. They can be any sin--hypocrisy, the abuse of the Lord's Table--as shown in Scripture. Why do you claim to know what God alone knows? Either you claim to be omniscient like God, or you are claiming to be a gnostic, having a higher knowledge than the rest of us. Which is it?

 

[saturneptune]

First of all, there seem to be two definitions of "sin unto death" running back and forth in this thread. One says a Christian commits a certain sin and dies physically. Another says a person commits a certain sin and either it proves he is not saved or cannot be saved. So what is the standard?

Another question about adultery comes to mind. Jesus set the standard not at just the physical act, but an attitude of heart towards others, second looks, running thoughts over and over in your mind, and other such impure motives. Taking this into account, who isn't guilty?

 

[Amy.G]

Meaning if I refuse to be disciplined as a child then chastisement has not met it's proper goal. And what the final conclusion of this position has is that you can refuse the chastisement throughout your lifetime and still receive your small slice of paradise pie or you simply write those people off as unsaved.

How can you refuse discipline? If God disciplines you, then you have been disciplined. You don't get a choice. You cannot refuse discipline.


Hbr 12:11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.

When God disciplines us, there is a result. It yields righteousness.

It doesn't say that it might yield righteousness, it does yield righteousness.

So if God chooses to discipline you, you will not be asked if you want it or not. You will not get a chance to refuse it. It will happen. And it will produce righteousness.

That is what the word says.

 

[Brother Bob]

First of all, there seem to be two definitions of "sin unto death" running back and forth in this thread. One says a Christian commits a certain sin and dies physically. Another says a person commits a certain sin and either it proves he is not saved or cannot be saved. So what is the standard?

No, I am saying he is not saved and never was, but if he repents and is forgiven, then he can join with the family of God.

 

[Brother Bob]

So if God chooses to discipline you, you will not be asked if you want it or not. You will not get a chance to refuse it. It will happen. And it will produce righteousness.

And if you are dead, how can it produce righteous? That is why I say, it is not and early natural death that is chastisement.

 

[DHK]

No, I am saying he is not saved and never was, but if he repents and is forgiven, then he can join with the family of God.

But that is not what the Bible says. What you believe is that a person can lose their salvation. You have no right to judge a person's salvation by their acts. Only God knows the heart. You have demonstrated a theology that says one must be born again and again and again and again....every time he sins.

 

[Brother Bob]

I do not justify adultery FYI. However, do you have any solid Biblical proof that adultery is a sin unto death. I believe it is all in your imagination. And to claim that you know this for sure is to claim that you are in the position of God. Only God knows what these sins are. They can be any sin--hypocrisy, the abuse of the Lord's Table--as shown in Scripture. Why do you claim to know what God alone knows? Either you claim to be omniscient like God, or you are claiming to be a gnostic, having a higher knowledge than the rest of us. Which is it?__________________
DHK

Well, what is saying that God's children can commit it all they want and even die in the act and suffer nothing for it, but go straight to heaven to sing with angels, against the word of God which says there shall be no adulterers there. God controls who will be in heaven and according to His Holy Word, there will be no adulterers there.
To teach men that you can die in the very act of adultery and go to heaven is heresy, and if heeded to, will send many to hell.

 

[DHK]

Well, what is saying that God's children can commit it all they want and even die in the act and suffer nothing for it, but go straight to heaven to sing with angels, against the word of God which says there shall be no adulterers there. God controls who will be in heaven and according to His Holy Word, there will be no adulterers there.
To teach men that you can die in the very act of adultery and go to heaven is heresy, and if heeded to, will send many to hell.

He also says all liars shall have their part in the lake of fire.
Have you ever lied Bob?

 

[Brother Bob]

He also says all liars shall have their part in the lake of fire.
Have you ever lied Bob?__________________
DHK

Not to my knowledge, the same is true with lusting, not to my knowledge.

 

[Amy.G]

And if you are dead, how can it produce righteous? That is why I say, it is not and early natural death that is chastisement.

I think you and I are posting on different subjects. I'm not talking about the sin unto death. I'm talking about the 1000 years in hell, that JJump thinks is dicipline for the believer.

Discipline for the beliver is in this lifetime in order to produce righteousness. Once you're dead, it's over.

The reason a believer is miserable in their sin, is because they are being disciplined by God in order to put them back on the straight and narrow. It's another reason that you can see that you are a child of God, because the unbeliever won't be miserable in his sin. He won't care if he sins against God.

 

[Brother Bob]

But that is not what the Bible says. What you believe is that a person can lose their salvation. You have no right to judge a person's salvation by their acts. Only God knows the heart. You have demonstrated a theology that says one must be born again and again and again and again....every time he sins.__________________
DHK

I believe he never had salvation.

Mat 7:18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

I would love to see you debate the Lord.

 

[Brother Bob]

Discipline for the beliver is in this lifetime in order to produce righteousness. Once you're dead, it's over.

The reason a believer is miserable in their sin, is because they are being disciplined by God in order to put them back on the straight and narrow. It's another reason that you can see that you are a child of God, because the unbeliever won't be miserable in his sin. He won't care if he sins against God.

I agree wholeheartly.

Have a funeral at the Funeral Home, be back later.

 

[DHK]

Not to my knowledge, the same is true with lusting, not to my knowledge.

A clear contradiction between two statements is a lie. One must be false and the other true. If I can pull up a statement that says you have never sinned, and if I can pull up a statement that says you have sinned, then you have lied. I believe that is possible on these threads. Don't you?

 

[J. Jump]

How can you refuse discipline? If God disciplines you, then you have been disciplined. You don't get a choice. You cannot refuse discipline.

Well let's just see what the Scripture has to say on the matter shall we?

If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

So Amy what happens to those that don't endure the chastening? Again do they just get an atta boy slap on the back and a welcome because I know you were a rebel, but that's really okay?

Discipline for the beliver is in this lifetime in order to produce righteousness. Once you're dead, it's over.

Says who? Scripture doesn't say this. No one to date has come up with a Scripture that directly says or even implies that discipline is over and done with in this life.

Once again what if the discipline doesn't bring about the necessary results and I continue in my rebellion? I just get a that's okay here's your smaller piece of paradise pie now enjoy all that eternity has to offer despite your rebellion?

Again please provide Scripture that says a person that stays a rebel in this life gets to enjoy the coming age.

The reason a believer is miserable in their sin, is because they are being disciplined by God in order to put them back on the straight and narrow.

I'm glad you brought this statement up, because it's going to prove once and for all how wrong you actually are. There are a number of people on this board that do practically nothing less than make fun of other believers. There are several on this board that do practically nothing but lie about other believers. But you don't see them miserable in their sin. You don't see these folks repenting and making amends for their actions.

Now you can try to excuse their action and call it unsinful, but to date there has not been one person that has advocated and supported the actions of some on this board, so there's not going to be much support that they aren't sinning.

This idea that you feel bad until you get it right just doesn't fly. Once again it sounds good, but it just doesn't have any basis in Scripture when you put it to the test.

There are some folks that enjoy their sin and aren't even thinking twice about it much less feeling bad or losing sleep over it!

 

[Amy.G]

JJump:

This idea that you feel bad until you get it right just doesn't fly. Once again it sounds good, but it just doesn't have any basis in Scripture when you put it to the test.

There are some folks that enjoy their sin and aren't even thinking twice about it much less feeling bad or losing sleep over it!
__________________

All discipline is unpleasant and sorrowful. If you are not sorrowful for your sin, you are not a child of God.

Sometimes discipline is short and sometimes it takes a long time. Some may take years to respond to God's discipline, but the Bible says that it WILL yield the fruit of righteousness.