Biblical Chastening

[James_Newman]

Ok you go with the KJV Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord LOVETH HE CHASTENETH, AND SCOURGETH every son whom he receiveth. Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 1 Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are CHASTENED of the LORD, that we should not BE CONDEMNED WITH THE WORLD. Brother I do not thank you know the reason God chastise.

1. When are we judged?

2. When is the world condemned?

 

[Amy.G]

James, what is the purpose of the 1000 years in outerdarkness?

 

[TCGreek]

I believe they will be cast into outerdarkness.

1. Where is the scriptural support?

I think that would be oversimplifying what we teach. We don't teach 'sinless perfection', but we do believe it is possible for believers to reach a relatively high degree of righteousness.

2. My statement is the resistless conclusion of your statement about those who sin will miss the reign. Therefore, those who reign are those who do not sin. What prevents this conclusion in your argument?

3. What do you mean by a "relatively high degree of righteousness? Does it involve sinning along the way?

Scripture says a man will reap what he sows. If enduring chastening produces the peacable fruit of righteousness, what fruit is produced if a man despises chastening?

4. We're dealing with Heb 12:4-11. The text of Hebrews doesn't address what you're talking about. From Hebrews, I can't answer that.

You said you had a bunch of sins piling up and that would be a problem at the judgment seat of Christ if my doctrine was true. Why aren't sins a problem for your doctrine of the judgment seat of Christ?

5. I never said my sins but someone's sin. It may have been my sin. At any rate, I don't believe a true believer has sins piling up. The atonement has taken care of all sins, past, present and future.

6. Sins that we commit are part of the process of sanctification. Beyond that, I can venture anything for certain. It still remains a mystery to me. But your explanation would not work.

 

[James_Newman]

1. Where is the scriptural support?

Matthew 25:30? It's not important right now, but because you asked, I answered. Webdog believes they will not have a reigning position in the kingdom, but they will enter. I don't see this, but do you believe a Christian can lose the 'reign'?

2. My statement is the resistless conclusion of your statement about those who sin will miss the reign. Therefore, those who reign are those who do not sin. What prevents this conclusion in your argument?

3. What do you mean by a "relatively high degree of righteousness? Does it involve sinning along the way?

I believe that often Christians are beset by sins that they could easily overcome if they had the proper motivation to overcome it. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. The fear of God is part of our shield of faith. By faith, Noah moved with fear. But we are going to need mercy and forgiveness from God when we fail. The bible tells us how to get mercy and forgiveness. God forgives those who confess their sins and forgive others. God shows mercy toward the merciful.

4. We're dealing with Heb 12:4-11. The text of Hebrews doesn't address what you're talking about. From Hebrews, I can't answer that.

Can you answer it from any other scripture?

Deuteronomy 21:18-21
18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

What happens to this son who despised his parents chastening? Could this be a picture for us to learn from?

5. I never said my sins but someone's sin. It may have been my sin. At any rate, I don't believe a true believer has sins piling up. The atonement has taken care of all sins, past, present and future.

Thats kind of what we have been discussing all along. Why is it that the atonement doesn't prevent us from reaping punishment for sins in this life, if all sins have been taken care of?

6. Sins that we commit are part of the process of sanctification. Beyond that, I can venture anything for certain. It still remains a mystery to me. But your explanation would not work.

The process of sanctification for what? What if you get to the end of the process and you aren't sancified? That P in TULIP is supposed to answer the question, but I would venture to guess that if you've been a Christian for a few years, you probably know of some saints who didn't P.

 

[jne1611]

Good catch, Charles. Interesting. Notice how it does NOT say, Whosoever therefore shall BREAK ONE OF THESE LEAST COMMANDMENTS, and shall teach men so, shall be called the least in the lake of fire or outer darkness.

Good Point!

 

[James_Newman]

James, what is the purpose of the 1000 years in outerdarkness?

To motivate you to not want to go there.

 

[TCGreek]

Matthew 25:30? It's not important right now, but because you asked, I answered. Webdog believes they will not have a reigning position in the kingdom, but they will enter. I don't see this, but do you believe a Christian can lose the 'reign'?

1. That entire Ch. demands an exegesis.

I believe that often Christians are beset by sins that they could easily overcome if they had the proper motivation to overcome it. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. The fear of God is part of our shield of faith. By faith, Noah moved with fear. But we are going to need mercy and forgiveness from God when we fail. The bible tells us how to get mercy and forgiveness. God forgives those who confess their sins and forgive others. God shows mercy toward the merciful.

2. I admire your effort to provide an answer, but it wouldn't do it for me.

Can you answer it from any other scripture?

Deuteronomy 21:18-21
18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

What happens to this son who despised his parents chastening? Could this be a picture for us to learn from?

3. You seem to think so.

Thats kind of what we have been discussing all along. Why is it that the atonement doesn't prevent us from reaping punishment for sins in this life, if all sins have been taken care of?

4. I know you guys don't like to hear about tensions in Scripture. Well, that is one such tension I'm happy to live with.

The process of sanctification for what? What if you get to the end of the process and you aren't sancified? That P in TULIP is supposed to answer the question, but I would venture to guess that if you've been a Christian for a few years, you probably know of some saints who didn't P.

5. As a five-point conviced Calvinist, the elect of God are going to be with him; there's no layover on the way. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

 

[James_Newman]

As a kingdom believer, I believe that all the elect will be reigning, but I don't believe that every one who is saved is the elect.

 

[npetreley]

You got ME on the brain, give it a rest.

Are you angry at me, Bob? Better reconcile or you won't be able to have communion, and you may end up in hell for 1,000 years.

 

[DHK]

Thats kind of what we have been discussing all along. Why is it that the atonement doesn't prevent us from reaping punishment for sins in this life, if all sins have been taken care of?

This floors me to the point of suggesting that it is heresy (though I am not supposed to use that word). Where do you get the theology that the atonement is not sufficient to pay the penalty for all our sins. The SDA's believe in the "Investigative Judgement" where Christ continues to atone for our sins even now in heaven. That is indeed a heresy. Do you believe something similar? Is not the blood of Christ sufficient enough to pay the penalty of your sins, all of them, or do you have to provide some works to help Jesus along so that you can have a part in his work of salvation? That is what it sounds like to me. It is either Jesus paid it all (past, present, and future), or when you get to heaven you can boast and say: "Look everyone; look how I helped Jesus on the cross accomplish his great work of salvation by my works." Every work of repentance, confession, etc. after salvation is a work that adds to the work of Christ in salvation, unless Christ has taken care of it with his blood at the cross.
Thus the atonement cannot give us any punishment for our sins; any that will affect our salvation. All chastisement is confined to this earth only. And that is because we are forever his children.

 

[npetreley]

Is not the blood of Christ sufficient enough to pay the penalty of your sins, all of them, or do you have to provide some works to help Jesus along so that you can have a part in his work of salvation?

That's exactly what it is, although they get around this by creating more than one salvation. There's salvation of the spirit, salvation of the soul, and salvation of the body. One is grace, another is works, etc. So they can look you in the face and say, "salvation is by grace alone" but really mean "your eternal salvation of your spirit is by grace alone, but other salvations require works and you will still suffer 1,000 years in hell for your sins if you don't confess them or work them off".

It's a clever system, because you can sound orthodox as long as you don't tell the whole story.

 

[James_Newman]

This floors me to the point of suggesting that it is heresy (though I am not supposed to use that word). Where do you get the theology that the atonement is not sufficient to pay the penalty for all our sins. The SDA's believe in the "Investigative Judgement" where Christ continues to atone for our sins even now in heaven. That is indeed a heresy. Do you believe something similar? Is not the blood of Christ sufficient enough to pay the penalty of your sins, all of them, or do you have to provide some works to help Jesus along so that you can have a part in his work of salvation? That is what it sounds like to me. It is either Jesus paid it all (past, present, and future), or when you get to heaven you can boast and say: "Look everyone; look how I helped Jesus on the cross accomplish his great work of salvation by my works." Every work of repentance, confession, etc. after salvation is a work that adds to the work of Christ in salvation, unless Christ has taken care of it with his blood at the cross.
Thus the atonement cannot give us any punishment for our sins; any that will affect our salvation. All chastisement is confined to this earth only. And that is because we are forever his children.

I don't think what I have said is shocking. We reap consequences in this life for sins. Those consequences are not deferred to the cross. Why can there be no consequences at the judgment seat of Christ? No one here denies that Christ is going to reward us for the works done in the flesh. It is not about helping Christ save us, we are already saved. But what are we saved from? And is that the only thing we need to be saved from?

 

[DHK]

I don't think what I have said is shocking. We reap consequences in this life for sins. Those consequences are not deferred to the cross. Why can there be no consequences at the judgment seat of Christ? No one here denies that Christ is going to reward us for the works done in the flesh. It is not about helping Christ save us, we are already saved. But what are we saved from? And is that the only thing we need to be saved from?

I am saved from the power of sin, the eternal consequence of sin, the penalty of sin.

Jesus paid it all,
All to Him I owe;
Sin had left a crimson stain,
He washed it white as snow.

Jesus said: "It is finished." There is nothing left to do. He paid the full penalty of our sin. Why do you try to add to what Christ already accomplished on the cross?

 

[npetreley]

I am saved from the power of sin, the eternal consequence of sin, the penalty of sin.

Jesus paid it all,
All to Him I owe;
Sin had left a crimson stain,
He washed it white as snow.

Jesus said: "It is finished." There is nothing left to do. He paid the full penalty of our sin. Why do you try to add to what Christ already accomplished on the cross?

One of my favorite hymns! I became familiar with it thanks to Through The Bible Radio (J. Vernon McGee). I don't agree with some of the things McGee taught, but I learned a LOT from the program, and I always liked hearing that hymn.

 

[James_Newman]

I am saved from the power of sin, the eternal consequence of sin, the penalty of sin.

Jesus paid it all,
All to Him I owe;
Sin had left a crimson stain,
He washed it white as snow.

Jesus said: "It is finished." There is nothing left to do. He paid the full penalty of our sin. Why do you try to add to what Christ already accomplished on the cross?

Is this the part where you stop your ears? I'm not saying Jesus didn't pay it all. I'm just saying that apparently that 'all' doesn't include Jesus bearing your chastening for sin, because God does chasten us when we sin, does He not?

 

[charles_creech78]

1. When are we judged?

2. When is the world condemned?

I am talking about chastise and if you thank that all that will come at the end so be it. All I have to say are you a son of God? Heb 12:8 But if ye BE WITHOUT CHASTISEMENT, whereof all are partakers, THEN ARE YE BASTARDS, AND NOT SONS. I think you realy need to read what I wrote again. We are chastised which is Gods judgement to us that are saved so we will not be condemned with the world. And it is happening know. Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the LORD, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him. Heb 12:6 For whom the LORD loveth he CHASTENETH, AND SCOURGETH EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVETH. Heb 12:7 If ye endure CHASTENING, GOD DEALETH WITH YOU AS WITH SONS; FOR WHAT SON IS HE WHOM THE FATHER CHASTENETH NOT? It is know just like the KINGDOM OF GOD IS KNOW.

 

[TCGreek]

As a kingdom believer, I believe that all the elect will be reigning, but I don't believe that every one who is saved is the elect.

And where's your Scripture to prove otherwise?

 

[James_Newman]

I am talking about chastise and if you thank that all that will come at the end so be it. All I have to say are you a son of God? Heb 12:8 But if ye BE WITHOUT CHASTISEMENT, whereof all are partakers, THEN ARE YE BASTARDS, AND NOT SONS. I think you realy need to read what I wrote again. We are chastised which is Gods judgement to us that are saved so we will not be condemned with the world. And it is happening know. Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the LORD, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him. Heb 12:6 For whom the LORD loveth he CHASTENETH, AND SCOURGETH EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVETH. Heb 12:7 If ye endure CHASTENING, GOD DEALETH WITH YOU AS WITH SONS; FOR WHAT SON IS HE WHOM THE FATHER CHASTENETH NOT? It is know just like the KINGDOM OF GOD IS KNOW.

I don't believe that the kingdom is now, but you can have your kingdom now and I will wait for the one that the Lord is going to bring with Him.

 

[James_Newman]

And where's your Scripture to prove otherwise?

2 Peter 1:10-11
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[TCGreek]

2 Peter 1:10-11
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Where does it say in this text that the elect are saved and some who are not elect are saved?