Biblical Human Will Limitations

[Van]

Jesus said it. Perhaps you recall the present middle imperative of ἀγωνίζομαι in Luke 13:24 I pointed out earlier; literally, "keep on struggling to enter."

I have already affirmed that it is true in my first post, citing Acts 17:26. Do you read my posts at all?

In that post, you did not address the truth presented in Luke 13:24, but referenced another verse.
Next, rather than address the topic, many seeking, you bring up another word in another clause.
The issue is Jesus says many seek salvation and Calvinism says Jesus is mistaken.

 

[Van]

The Pharisees tried, but failed due to relying upon their own righteousness!

Yet another change of subject, and another failure to address the fact many seek salvation proving Calvinism is bogus.

 

[Van]

How can someone seek to enter into eternal salvation and not be able? I asked you this earlier and you "dodged" the question.

Did you answer my question with a question?
Ever wonder about all those seeking salvation by works of the Law?
You do realize everyone knows the game you are playing.

 

[Tsalagi]

So Jesus refuses to save any who come unto Him for salvation?

You don't seem to have understood my question. If Jesus is talking about eternal salvation in Luke 13:24, then "Strive to enter" means struggle to get saved, and "many will seek to enter and not be able" means there will be many who want to be eternally saved who will not be able to do so. That makes no sense, especially in this context and with this audience in Luke 13. Eternal salvation is not under discussion; rather, it is God's coming kingdom, fulfilling His OT covenant promises to Israel. They aren't the same thing.

 

[Tsalagi]

Did you answer my question with a question?
Ever wonder about all those seeking salvation by works of the Law?
You do realize everyone knows the game you are playing.

I don't know what game you think is being played. I do know you can't seem to answer my simple question about Jesus' use of the present imperative in Luke 13:24. I'm pretty sure you can't explain it because your interpretation inevitably forces the conclusion of salvation by works. Your contention is that Jesus is saying we must continuously strive to enter into salvation. I disagree.

 

[Tsalagi]

In that post, you did not address the truth presented in Luke 13:24, but referenced another verse.
Next, rather than address the topic, many seeking, you bring up another word in another clause.
The issue is Jesus says many seek salvation and Calvinism says Jesus is mistaken.

Jesus can't be talking about seeking salvation in Luke 13:24 because salvation does not require a constant struggle. I have clearly and repeatedly made this point, and you have clearly and repeatedly failed to address it.

 

[Van]

I don't know what game you think is being played. I do know you can't seem to answer my simple question about Jesus' use of the present imperative in Luke 13:24. I'm pretty sure you can't explain it because your interpretation inevitably forces the conclusion of salvation by works. Your contention is that Jesus is saying we must continuously strive to enter into salvation. I disagree.

Sir, you repeatedly charge me with "salvation by works" when I advocate salvation by grace alone through faith alone.
The issue is did Jesus say many seek salvation? The answer is yes. You have not said yes or no, but post dodge after dodge.
Since many seek salvation, then total spiritual inability is bogus doctrine. That is the truth

And you are not addressing that many seek salvation.

Instead you put words in my mouth. So sad...

 

[Tsalagi]

Sir, you repeatedly charge me with "salvation by works" when I advocate salvation by grace alone through faith alone.
The issue is did Jesus say many seek salvation? The answer is yes. You have not said yes or no, but post dodge after dodge.
Since many seek salvation, then total spiritual inability is bogus doctrine. That is the truth

The issue is, did Jesus say many seek salvation in Luke 13:24, the verse you cite as a refutation of "bogus doctrine." The answer is NO, Jesus did NOT say many seek salvation in Luke 13:24. Whatever the merits of your position on the ability of unregenerate people to come to saving faith, this passage is not pertinent. If you truly advocate salvation by grace alone through faith alone you cannot understand Jesus to be talking about eternal salvation in Luke 13:24, because continual struggle is not required for salvation. You need to build your case on other scripture. It is that simple.

 

[Van]

Matthew 7:14
“For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Here we have a statement that people (few) find the way that leads to life. Pay no attention to those who deny scripture.

 

[Van]

The issue is, did Jesus say many seek salvation in Luke 13:24, the verse you cite as a refutation of "bogus doctrine." The answer is NO, Jesus did NOT say many seek salvation in Luke 13:24. Whatever the merits of your position on the ability of unregenerate people to come to saving faith, this passage is not pertinent. If you truly advocate salvation by grace alone through faith alone you cannot understand Jesus to be talking about eternal salvation in Luke 13:24, because continual struggle is not required for salvation. It is that simple.

Your interpretation of the verse is your own, but contextually Jesus is talking about seeking salvation.
As far as strive, the Greek word might be translated "endeavor" with the idea of earnestly seeking salvation. And if this endeavor is through faith in Christ alone, then "works" is nowhere to be found, except as a figment of your imagination.

 

[Tsalagi]

Your interpretation of the verse is your own, but contextually Jesus is talking about seeking salvation.
As far as strive, the Greek word might be translated "endeavor" with the idea of earnestly seeking salvation. And if this endeavor is through faith in Christ alone, then "works" is nowhere to be found, except as a figment of your imagination.

So you believe in salvation by "continual endeavor"? Changing the translation hardly solves the problem with your view. Endeavor is not faith, and Jesus nowhere offers Himself as an object for salvation faith in this context.

 

[Van]

So you believe in salvation by "continual endeavor"? Changing the translation hardly solves the problem with your view. Endeavor is not faith, and Jesus nowhere offers Himself as an object for salvation faith in this context.

Only falsifiers put disinformation words in the mouths of others. You claim that our endeavor seeking does not stop when found is just the use of absurdity to hide truth.

 

[Tsalagi]

Only falsifiers put disinformation words in the mouths of others. You claim that our endeavor seeking does not stop when found is just the use of absurdity to hide truth.

If your claim about falsifiers is true, one had better not be guilty of putting the disinformation words "our endeavor seeking does not stop when found" in the mouths of others, no?

Let's say you're right, and entrance into the narrow gate means salvation. Jesus then goes on to say many will seek to enter but not be able to, because In your view they are trying to get saved by works (you referenced "all those seeking salvation by works of the Law" above). So then in your view the next six verses (Luke 13:25-30) are also talking about those who are saved (inside the door) and the unsaved (those outside seeking to enter and pleading their works). Am I correct?

 

[Van]

If your claim about falsifiers is true, one had better not be guilty of putting the disinformation words "our endeavor seeking does not stop when found" in the mouths of others, no?

Let's say you're right, and entrance into the narrow gate means salvation. Jesus then goes on to say many will seek to enter but not be able to, because In your view they are trying to get saved by works (you referenced "all those seeking salvation by works of the Law" above). So then in your view the next six verses (Luke 13:25-30) are also talking about those who are saved (inside the door) and the unsaved (those outside seeking to enter and pleading their works). Am I correct?

Of course you are posting errant obfuscation.

When is the door shut on salvation? When we physically die!!

Does anyone continually struggle to fine something, once the something is found? Of course not, the premise is absurd.

And I did not suggest seeking salvation by works of the Law is the only errant method of seeking salvation. Anything other than putting faith in God and His Christ is errant.

The next verses indicate the opportunity to seek is limited and once ended, the result is gnashing and darkness.

 

[MB]

The idea we are free to choose from among available options is consistent with our experience. Scripture tells us God sometimes restricts our options, i.e. hardening the hearts of some such that they will reject the gospel, i.e. Romans 11.

"The absence of free will is, however, devastating to all theists since without it you cannot choose to be evil or good, and therefore deserve neither punishment nor salvation."
So the complete absence of free will is irrational and unrestricted free will is unbiblical. Some assert since we are free to choose among various sinful actions, but unable to choose the narrow path that leads to life, it makes sense for God to punish us for the sin we chose. Rational minds object.

We can harden our own hearts by the practice of sin. And God can harden hearts for His purpose, such as Romans 11. God can choose a person well on the way of hardening his own heart, and complete the process. Scripture does not rule any of the three out.

Some say whatsoever comes to pass is predestined to occur. Therefore God is the author of sin. Then some others say while it is true that God to be sovereign must predestine everything, that does not make God the author of sin. Rational minds object.

Why would God still blame us for our choices after He hardened our heart? My answer is He would not. But prior to that those hardened did make sinful choices, sealing their fate. The hardening, like physical death, simply ends the opportunity to obtain mercy. God, as the potter has the right to harden whoever He pleases.

Why would God do that, cut short the opportunity of some, and endure their hardened behavior? God did so to make known the riches of His glory (see Romans 9), including even us which He called not from Jews only but also from among Gentiles.

Our ability to make choices from among various options can be restricted by God for His purpose, thus the Biblical doctrine is "Limited Free Will."

Romans 9:16 teaches men can will and work to be saved, thus total spiritual inability as the result of the Fall is shown to be mistaken doctrine.

So when you see disputes raging over complete slavery to sin versus complete freedom of our will, consider that we are fallen and therefore predisposed to sin with a corrupt nature, but we are not so incapacitated as to not be responsible for our choices to reject Christ, or to not treat others as we would treat ourselves, because we have the capacity to accept Christ, and strive to do the will of God.

Lessons in Calvinism.
MB

 

[Tsalagi]

Of course you are posting errant obfuscation.

When is the door shut on salvation? When we physically die!!

Does anyone continually struggle to fine something, once the something is found? Of course not, the premise is absurd.

In your view Jesus is not talking to the saved in Luke 13:24, who would certainly no longer need to strive for what they have already found. In your view Jesus is talking to the unsaved, telling them to "keep on struggling" to enter into eternal life. That, my friend, is salvation by works. Your point about when the struggling would end doesn't change the inescapable conclusion that if struggling/striving/endeavoring is required to enter into salvation it is no longer by faith alone.

And I did not suggest seeking salvation by works of the Law is the only errant method of seeking salvation. Anything other than putting faith in God and His Christ is errant.

Such as struggling/striving/endeavoring; I fully agree. That's how we know Luke 13:24 is not about eternal salvation.

 

[Van]

In your view Jesus is not talking to the saved in Luke 13:24, who would certainly no longer need to strive for what they have already found. In your view Jesus is talking to the unsaved, telling them to "keep on struggling" to enter into eternal life. That, my friend, is salvation by works. Your point about when the struggling would end doesn't change the inescapable conclusion that if struggling/striving/endeavoring is required to enter into salvation it is no longer by faith alone.

Such as struggling/striving/endeavoring; I fully agree. That's how we know Luke 13:24 is not about eternal salvation.

Jesus said few find the narrow gate (those heading toward salvation) and the many who do not find the narrow gate (those heading for destruction).

I clearly never said "keep on struggling" those are your words, mine were strive and endeavor. Discerning truth to set our faith on is difficult, made more so by false teachers and false doctrine such as claimed total spiritual inability. How could they strive??

Salvation by grace alone through or by means of faith alone is not "salvation by works."

Next we get yet another falsehood, another fiction, another absurd claim. Jesus said we are to strive, endeavor, and seek to find the narrow gate that leads to life. To claim Jesus is teaching salvation by the works of the Law based on this is vile.

Pay no attention to those who deny scripture.

 

[canadyjd]

Why would God still blame us for our choices after He hardened our heart? My answer is He would not.

(Your answer is wrong; Romans 9:19-20 answers that question)

Romans 9:16 teaches men can will and work to be saved, thus total spiritual inability as the result of the Fall is shown to be mistaken doctrine.

(Amazing that you believe this passage teaches the exact opposite of what it actually teaches)

 

[canadyjd]

Peace to you

 

[Tsalagi]

Jesus said few find the narrow gate (those heading toward salvation) and the many who do not find the narrow gate (those heading for destruction).

I clearly never said "keep on struggling" those are your words, mine were strive and endeavor. Discerning truth to set our faith on is difficult, made more so by false teachers and false doctrine such as claimed total spiritual inability. How could they strive??

Salvation by grace alone through or by means of faith alone is not "salvation by works."

Next we get yet another falsehood, another fiction, another absurd claim. Jesus said we are to strive, endeavor, and seek to find the narrow gate that leads to life. To claim Jesus is teaching salvation by the works of the Law based on this is vile.

Pay no attention to those who deny scripture.

"Keep on striving/struggling/endeavoring to enter" are JESUS' words. Look up ἀγωνίζομαι in the lexicon; "struggle" is a primary meaning. By the way, it is translated "fight" in 1 Timothy 6:12 where it occurs in the same present middle imperative form as Luke 13:24.

The only person here associating Jesus' words "Strive to enter" with salvation is you, my friend. I know salvation is not what He is talking about, because His subject is the kingdom, not eternal salvation, and we are not commanded to "strive" to be saved.

Scripture should dictate our theological understanding, not the other way around.