Biblical Human Will Limitations

[tyndale1946]

From The London Confession Of Faith 1689... Of Free Will

1._____ God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil. ( Matthew 17:12; James 1:14; Deuteronomy 30:19 )

2._____ Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God, but yet was unstable, so that he might fall from it. ( Ecclesiastes 7:29; Genesis 3:6 )

3._____ Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto. ( Romans 5:6; Romans 8:7; Ephesians 2:1, 5; Titus 3:3-5; John 6:44 )

4._____ When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin, and by his grace alone enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so as that by reason of his remaining corruptions, he doth not perfectly, nor only will, that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil. ( Colossians 1:13; John 8:36; Philippians 2:13; Romans 7:15, 18, 19, 21, 23 )

5._____ This will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone in the state of glory only. ( Ephesians 4:13 )

Brother Glen

 

[Tsalagi]

Romans 9 teaches there are two types of people: vessels of wrath created for destruction and vessels of mercy created for God’s glory.

No, it doesn't. It says God patiently bears with vessels of wrath "having made themselves suitable" "or having been made suitable" (depending on if you take the aorist participle as middle or passive) for destruction in order to make known His glory to vessels of honor which He "prepared beforehand" (see Ephesians 2:10, same word and translation) for glory.

Far from saying that God "creates" vessels for destruction and for honor, Paul says that if a man cleanses himself, he can become a vessel of honor (2 Timothy 2:21).

Which of those two groups do these people who “will to be saved” fall into?

If you say “vessels to of wrath”, then you have God condemning people to destruction who are sincerely seeking Him for salvation.

If you say “vessels of mercy”, then you are contradicting this very passage which says it does not depend upon the “man who wills”; a n essence saying it does depend on the man who wills.

Salvation does not happen simply because a man "chooses" or "intensely desires" to be saved, just as a parched man in the desert doesn't get a drink of water just by really, really wanting it. We can't add a single hour to our lifespan by thinking or choosing (Luke 12:25), much less will or desire ourselves into salvation. Eternal life comes fully and entirely from God's mercy.

 

[Van]

You and Paul seemed to have gotten different messages from God on what it means!

This is all they have folks, taint so but no scripture!!

 

[Van]

SNIP
Your interpretation is wrong
thanks for the conversation
peace to you

Yet another denial of the obvious, and note the reference to "my interpretation" as if "some people will to receive mercy" is not irrefutable.

 

[Van]

From The London Confession Of Faith 1689... Of Free Will
SNIP
3._____ Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto. ( Romans 5:6; Romans 8:7; Ephesians 2:1, 5; Titus 3:3-5; John 6:44 )
SNIP
Brother Glen

Once again the utterly false doctrine is claimed, and supported by the mistaken beliefs of people long dead and unable to respond.
Romans 9:16 teaches that some people have not "wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation. No Siree Bob, they will to receive mercy but that does not count.

Next the lost are said to be "altogether averse" from the good of salvation. Does Romans 9:16 ring a bell? Or the many that seek salvation, Luke 13:24. Or those who would have repented?

Did anyone claim fallen people are able to "by his own strength to convert himself?" Nope - so non-germane.

Romans 5:6 says we are helpless [to save out selves] and that is not at issue, thus non-germane.

Romans 8:7 says when the fallen have their mind set on the flesh, they are hostile to God and unable to subject themselves to the Law of God. Again, not at issue. The claim the fallen are unable to set their minds some of the time on spiritual things is false, behold the people of Matthew 13:23 who were in the process of entering the kingdom, thus seeking the spiritual good accompanying salvation.

Titus 3:3-5 says God saves individuals, and the individuals do not save themselves. Again, not in dispute, thus non-germane.

Ephesians 2:1 says the fallen are "dead in their trespasses and sins. Here the false teachers redefine the condition to include total spiritual inability, without any support. The lost are dead, meaning separated from the God, but as Matthew 23:13 proves, still able to seek God and trust in Christ if not blocked by false and destructive heresy.

John 6:44 says no one can come to Jesus unless drawn (attracted) by the Father. Again, not in dispute and therefore non-germane.

 

[canadyjd]

No, it doesn't. It says God patiently bears with vessels of wrath "having made themselves suitable" "or having been made suitable" (depending on if you take the aorist participle as middle or passive) for destruction in order to make known His glory to vessels of honor which He "prepared beforehand" (see Ephesians 2:10, same word and translation) for glory.

Far from saying that God "creates" vessels for destruction and for honor, Paul says that if a man cleanses himself, he can become a vessel of honor (2 Timothy 2:21).

The verses concerning “vessels of wrath” and “vessels of mercy” in Romans 9 immediately follows the proclamation that God (as a potter) creates some vessels for honor and some for dishonor. So the reading “made suitable for destruction” in the passive is consistent with the context. God clearly creates some for honor and some for dishonor and there is no moving from one group to the other in the election of God.

The 2 Timothy 2:21 passage is an encouragement to believers to purge themselves from iniquity (v.19).

peace to you

 

[Van]

The false teachers post non-stop unbiblical interpretations of scripture. Here is but one example.

Romans 9:21(NASB)
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

Does this verse say God made some people for honorable use and others for common use? No, of course not, it is God, as creator has the right of the creator to create people for honorable or common use. But what does the false teacher proclaim, why God creates people for honor or dishonor. On and on folks, one falsehood after another.

Or does vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, say they were created for destruction? No, of course not, the word "prepare" refers to a repair or alteration for a desired purpose. How were people "prepared for destruction?" The fall, the separation from God and the corruption of the human spirit. But this applies to all people, not a subset.

And why does God endure fallen mankind, prepared for destruction? He did it so He could make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy which He prepared beforehand for glory. And what were these preparations? Choosing Christ as His redeemer, and implementing His redemption plan.

When do fallen humans become "vessels of mercy?" When they are chosen and placed in Christ after they had not received mercy.

There is no support anywhere in scripture for the false doctrine of total spiritual inability afflicting all as a consequence of the Fall.

 

[canadyjd]

The false teachers post non-stop unbiblical interpretations of scripture. Here is but one example.

Romans 9:21(NASB)
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

Does this verse say God made some people for honorable use and others for common use? No, of course not, it is God, as creator has the right of the creator to create people for honorable or common use. But what does the false teacher proclaim, why God creates people for honor or dishonor.....

The KJV uses the terms “honorable” and “dishonorable”, not “common”. It would be appropriate to discuss the meanings of these Greek words without slandering others as “false teachers”.

However, since you are quick to declare someone a “false teacher” who disagrees with you, I’ll withdraw and let you have at it.

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

 

[Yeshua1]

The KJV uses the terms “honorable” and “dishonorable”, not “common”. It would be appropriate to discuss the meanings of these Greek words without slandering others as “false teachers”.

However, since you are quick to declare someone a “false teacher” who disagrees with you, I’ll withdraw and let you have at it.

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

Indeed as the Greek word used there is more akin to shameful and dishonorable using!

 

[Van]

The KJV uses the terms “honorable” and “dishonorable”, not “common”. It would be appropriate to discuss the meanings of these Greek words without slandering others as “false teachers”.

However, since you are quick to declare someone a “false teacher” who disagrees with you, I’ll withdraw and let you have at it.
Thanks for the conversation
peace to you

You falsely taught Romans 9:16 does not teach some people will to be saved.

Here is the quote from your post #38,

teaches men can will and work to be saved, thus total spiritual inability as the result of the Fall is shown to be mistaken doctrine.

(Amazing that you believe this passage teaches the exact opposite of what it actually teaches)

 

[Tsalagi]

The verses concerning “vessels of wrath” and “vessels of mercy” in Romans 9 immediately follows the proclamation that God (as a potter) creates some vessels for honor and some for dishonor. So the reading “made suitable for destruction” in the passive is consistent with the context. God clearly creates some for honor and some for dishonor and there is no moving from one group to the other in the election of God.

Jeremiah says something different than what you claim. The clay made into a vessel of wrath is that which spoiled in the potter's hand (Jeremiah 18:4). The potter chose to make it a different kind of vessel than was first intended because the clay would not hold the shape he originally desired. What do you make of that detail?

The 2 Timothy 2:21 passage is an encouragement to believers to purge themselves from iniquity (v.19).

Agreed. And based on the choice to purge themselves of that which is unfit believers can become vessels unto honor. It doesn't appear to be a sovereignly determined foregone conclusion to my eye.

 

[canadyjd]

Indeed as the Greek word used there is more akin to shameful and dishonorable using!

Thanks for the info. It is helpful to understanding the context.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

You falsely taught Romans 9:16 does not teach some people will to be saved.

Here is the quote from your post #38,

There can be no conversation if you cannot (or are unwilling) to accurately state my beliefs.

Ill leave you to it

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

 

[Yeshua1]

There can be no conversation if you cannot (or are unwilling) to accurately state my beliefs.

Ill leave you to it

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

Clearly shows to us that salvation for us is due to the will and purposes of God!

 

[canadyjd]

Jeremiah says something different than what you claim. The clay made into a vessel of wrath is that which spoiled in the potter's hand (Jeremiah 18:4). The potter chose to make it a different kind of vessel than was first intended because the clay would not hold the shape he originally desired. What do you make of that detail?
.

I haven’t studied Jeremiah 18:4, but from what you have posted it appears the context is different from the Romans 9 passage. When I get a chance, I’ll look a little closer at the passage.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

Clearly shows to us that salvation for us is due to the will and purposes of God!

Yes it does, from start to finish a work of God.

peace to you

 

[Van]

There can be no conversation if you cannot (or are unwilling) to accurately state my beliefs.
Ill leave you to it
Thanks for the conversation
peace to you

On and on they post falsehoods, now to directly quote is not to accurately state. Go figure.

Romans 9:16 teaches some people will to receive mercy, therefore total spiritual inability afflicting all of the fallen is unbiblical.

And anyone who quotes the above statement will be "accurately stating my beliefs."

 

[canadyjd]

On and on they post falsehoods, now to directly quote is not to accurately state. Go figure.

Romans 9:16 teaches some people will to receive mercy, therefore total spiritual inability afflicting all of the fallen is unbiblical.

And anyone who quotes the above statement will be "accurately stating my beliefs."

Partial quotes are not accurate quotes. Paraphrased quotes are not accurate quotes. You do both with my quotes and with scripture which makes any meaningful conversation with you impossible.

peace to you

 

[Van]

Partial quotes are not accurate quotes. Paraphrased quotes are not accurate quotes. You do both with my quotes and with scripture which makes any meaningful conversation with you impossible.

peace to you

On and on, subject change after subject change. More taint so and Van is rotten for saying so.

Romans 9:16 teaches some people will to receive mercy, therefore total spiritual inability afflicting all of the fallen is unbiblical.

And anyone who quotes the above statement will be "accurately stating my beliefs."

 

[Van]

The idea we are free to choose from among available options is consistent with our experience. Scripture tells us God sometimes restricts our options, i.e. hardening the hearts of some such that they will reject the gospel, i.e. Romans 11.

"The absence of free will is, however, devastating to all theists since without it you cannot choose to be evil or good, and therefore deserve neither punishment nor salvation."
​

So the complete absence of free will is irrational and unrestricted free will is unbiblical. Some assert since we are free to choose among various sinful actions, but unable to choose the narrow path that leads to life, it makes sense for God to punish us for the sin we chose. Rational minds object.

We can harden our own hearts by the practice of sin. And God can harden hearts for His purpose, such as Romans 11. God can choose a person well on the way of hardening his own heart, and complete the process. Scripture does not rule any of the three out.

Some say whatsoever comes to pass is predestined to occur. Therefore God is the author of sin. Then some others say while it is true that God to be sovereign must predestine everything, that does not make God the author of sin. Rational minds object.

Why would God still blame us for our choices after He hardened our heart? My answer is He would not. But prior to that those hardened did make sinful choices, sealing their fate. The hardening, like physical death, simply ends the opportunity to obtain mercy. God, as the potter has the right to harden whoever He pleases.

Why would God do that, cut short the opportunity of some, and endure their hardened behavior? God did so to make known the riches of His glory (see Romans 9), including even us which He called not from Jews only but also from among Gentiles.

Our ability to make choices from among various options can be restricted by God for His purpose, thus the Biblical doctrine is "Limited Free Will."

Romans 9:16 teaches men can will and work to be saved, thus total spiritual inability as the result of the Fall is shown to be mistaken doctrine.

So when you see disputes raging over complete slavery to sin versus complete freedom of our will, consider that we are fallen and therefore predisposed to sin with a corrupt nature, but we are not so incapacitated as to not be responsible for our choices to reject Christ, or to not treat others as we would treat ourselves, because we have the capacity to accept Christ, and strive to do the will of God.