Biblical Penal Substitution

[JonShaff]

Why do you think it is a caricature?
The penalty of the broken law and Gods wrath being poured out seems to not enter in to these other suggested ideas.
Men are under the law of God.
There is a penalty for breaking the law.
This idea of sin and death holding some random power over men, as if the fall has not taken place, is not found.
Unsaved people receive Gods wrath without mercy. They are cast into hell,eternally separated from life.

God's wrath is poured out on the UNRIGHTEOUS, UNBELIEVING, UNHOLY. How many of those words describe our Lord? Think about it.

Edit to add:
I think maybe you and others have never contemplated the severity, the gravity of a Completely righteous person physically dying and being heinously mistreated and beaten and hung on a criminal's cross. And then think about the fact He's God and His own creation did this to Him. Let that sink in. God's wrath is not poured out on the perfectly obedient One. His obedience brought us salvation--Romans 5. That is the context. By one man's obedience, many are made righteous. It does not say because the wrath of God was poured out on Christ, many are made righteous. No, in fact, it says that We are saved from the WRATH TO COME because of His righteous deed. We inherit his righteousness, which is why we will not see the wrath of God.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I believe God frees us on the basis of having become flesh and gaining victory over the bonds of sin and death. I believe this literally the righteousness of God apart from the law.

Christ became flesh and shared in our infirmity under the curse. He was crushed under the powers of sin and death (the powers of this world's). But He was resurrected and rose victorious. We are saved in Him. Not from death but through death. We die to sin and death, and our flesh dies. But we have newness of life.

The cross is absolutely necessary as it is the crux of the powers of darkness, of sin and death, of evil, coming down on Christ as He became a curse for us. Christ had to die the death of a sinner, to share in our iniquities and submit to the evil, the powers of this world. Having not sinned Christ became sin for us. Our hope is in the resurrection, that in Christ we will die (in the flesh) but we are made alive in the Spirit. In a way, you could look at this as a new creation and Christ the Firstborn.

I do not follow Gustav Aulen's position, but at the same time I cannot explain where I would part because I have never studied Gustav Aulén. Coming from a PSA background I just never got around to reading his material. I will put that on my list of things to do.

In terms of Christus Victor (I do not necessarily agree with their theologies as a whole) I would affirm a position akin to Kraybill, Boyd, C.S. Lewis and Wright (probably closer to Wright).

That seems pretty much like Aulen's theory (not that I'm an expert!). Obviously, there's much there with which I can agree, just as I can agree with portions of 'Moral Influence' (Romans 12:1) and 'Ransom' (1 Timothy 2:6 etc.). Ephesians 4::8-10 and Colossians 2:15 come to mind. But when you say that ;He was crushed under the powers of sin and death (the powers of this world's). But He was resurrected and rose victorious. We are saved in Him,' the statements are true, but the last part's a non sequitur. Why is 'our hope...in the resurrection'? It is, but C.V doesn't explain how or why.

Above all, it doesn't explain how God can be 'Just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.'

Satan is presented as the accuser of the brethren. '.....The accuser of our brethren who accused them before our God day and night.....' (Revelation 12:10).
So here is the vital thing that Christ has achieved for us on the cross. '.....That through death He might destroy Him who had the power of death, that is, the devil' (Hebrews 2:14; cf. 1 John 3:8 etc.) . Here I quote from Henri Blocher's Agnus Victor: 'How is Satan's role as the Accuser related to his power? If Satan's opposition to the Lord were a matter of mere power, the rebel's finite resources would equal zero confronted with infinity. But the accuser can appeal to justice. He may also indulge in slander, but his force resides in the rightness of his accusation. Joshua is unclean; unspeakably unclean.......[Zechariah 3:1-3]. The righteous Judge of all the earth, who can only do right, cannot refuse to hear the charges the Accuser brings without denying Himself. In other words, the weapon in the devil's hand is God's own law - hence the association in some passages of the law and inimical powers which Aulen was not able to read aright.'

Satan appeals to God's justice, calling on Him to punish humanity as we deserve. That is why He is called 'the adversary' and 'the accuser of the brethren.'. Consequently, the defeat of the devil must involve the removal of our guilt, and that is the way that the N.T. presents it. That is why Colossians 2:14-15 presents to us Christ's triumph on the cross to the cancellation of the bond of our debt by His substitutionary death upon the cross. Then all the principalities and powers, chief of whom was Satan, were 'disarmed.' They have nothing of which to accuse Christians because Christ has paid the penalty in full. So the ransom paid by Christ to free us from the grasp of Satan was paid to God's justice. Now the ransom has been paid, 'There is now therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.' 'Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies; who is he who condemns?' Not Satan any more! He is cast down because Christ on the cross has satisfied divine justice. Now God can be 'just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.'

Colossians 2:14-15 connects our Lord's triumph to the cross and precisely to the cancellation of the bond of our debt (as defined by the ordinances of the law) when Jesus was crucified. At that very time, the principalities and powers, chief of whom is Satan, 'disarmed.' the action has to do with the law and its demands { 'the handwriting of requirements). The cancellation of the bond is obtained through the payment of the legal debt. This is the meaning of the various 'ransom' sayings; the life, sufferings and death of the Saviour were the price paid to free human beings from bondage..

'Revelation 12 reflects the same understanding. How have the brothers overcome the devil and his host? Not by superior power, but by the blood of the Lamb (v.11). Satan was the accuser, and he prevailed as long as he could point to their sins. But the blood of the Lamb was the price paid for the cancellation of their debt. It wiped out the guilt of their sins forever, and the devil was disarmed.' [Ibid. Henri Blocher]..

 

[Yeshua1]

Part of the issue is that Scripture tells us Jesus’ death is “according to the Scriptures”, not according to a few texts we can pull out as proof text while holding Scripture at an arms length.

This is one reason that I ended up rejecting PSA.

wrath of God is very real in scriptures, as someone has to pay for that cup/bowl of judgement for and against sins!

 

[Yeshua1]

God's wrath is poured out on the UNRIGHTEOUS, UNBELIEVING, UNHOLY. How many of those words describe our Lord? Think about it.

Edit to add:
I think maybe you and others have never contemplated the severity, the gravity of a Completely righteous person physically dying and being heinously mistreated and beaten and hung on a criminal's cross. And then think about the fact He's God and His own creation did this to Him. Let that sink in. God's wrath is not poured out on the perfectly obedient One. His obedience brought us salvation--Romans 5. That is the context. By one man's obedience, many are made righteous. It does not say because the wrath of God was poured out on Christ, many are made righteous. No, in fact, it says that We are saved from the WRATH TO COME because of His righteous deed. We inherit his righteousness, which is why we will not see the wrath of God.

Jesus when he bacame the great sin bearer was at that time treated as if he were all of those by the father!

 

[Yeshua1]

By Grace through Faith in Christ you have been made righteous. Christ paid for your sins on the cross. But to say the Father punished Him with the wrath of God is to go beyond what Scripture says. The Wrath of God is for the unrighteous. Where does it say Christ became unrighteous? Scripture does not say that. Matter of fact, because Christ remained fully righteous, that is Why God raised Him from the dead--a righteous man does not deserve to die.

That ss the grand paradox, as Jesus never ceased to be Holy and fully God, but as the sin bearer, he who knew no sin became sin for our sakes!

 

[Yeshua1]

Also, for the record, there are elements of PSA that are true--i am not denying the parts that are True and Biblical. I'm denying the part that says "God poured out His wrath on His Son."

if not on jesus, where it it go?

 

[Yeshua1]

Not speaking for @JonShaff , but if we allow Scripture to interpret Scripture (which I believe is proper) then 2 Corinthians 5:21 is not the first passage that presents God as sending His Son as a sin offering for us.

One issue here is that no one - not even you - is taking the passage to mean that Christ literally "became sin" (that Christ literally became evil and rebellious towards God).

No, but that when he was doing just that upon the Cross, he experienced exactly what lost sinners will when judged for their sins by God!

 

[JonShaff]

Jesus when he bacame the great sin bearer was at that time treated as if he were all of those by the father!

Heresy bro--Christ was treated by His creation as He was a criminal.

Isaiah 53
yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted.

1 John 3:8
The one who commits sin is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose: to destroy the devil’s works.

 

[Yeshua1]

Heresy bro--Christ was treated by His creation as He was a criminal.

Isaiah 53
yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted.

1 John 3:8
The one who commits sin is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose: to destroy the devil’s works.

Scriptures state that he was forsaken by God the father, so NOT heresy....

 

[JonShaff]

Question: If Christ died in our place, why do we still die physically?

 

[JonShaff]

Scriptures state that he was forsaken by God the father, so NOT heresy....

You take one verse and one quote out of context and you twist it to say He was forsaken of the Father. The entire testimony of Scripture is that the Son is completely obedient to the Father and the Father completely delights in the Son, never forsaking Him.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Caveat--it (Gk. huper) sometimes means "on behalf of". Other times, most of the times, it does not.

Most Greek prepositions have a very large semantic range. It is the context that decides the meaning.

 

[JonC]

That seems pretty much like Aulen's theory (not that I'm an expert!). Obviously, there's much there with which I can agree, just as I can agree with portions of 'Moral Influence' (Romans 12:1) and 'Ransom' (1 Timothy 2:6 etc.). Ephesians 4::8-10 and Colossians 2:15 come to mind. But when you say that ;He was crushed under the powers of sin and death (the powers of this world's). But He was resurrected and rose victorious. We are saved in Him,' the statements are true, but the last part's a non sequitur. Why is 'our hope...in the resurrection'? It is, but C.V doesn't explain how or why.

Above all, it doesn't explain how God can be 'Just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.'

Satan is presented as the accuser of the brethren. '.....The accuser of our brethren who accused them before our God day and night.....' (Revelation 12:10).
So here is the vital thing that Christ has achieved for us on the cross. '.....That through death He might destroy Him who had the power of death, that is, the devil' (Hebrews 2:14; cf. 1 John 3:8 etc.) . Here I quote from Henri Blocher's Agnus Victor: 'How is Satan's role as the Accuser related to his power? If Satan's opposition to the Lord were a matter of mere power, the rebel's finite resources would equal zero confronted with infinity. But the accuser can appeal to justice. He may also indulge in slander, but his force resides in the rightness of his accusation. Joshua is unclean; unspeakably unclean.......[Zechariah 3:1-3]. The righteous Judge of all the earth, who can only do right, cannot refuse to hear the charges the Accuser brings without denying Himself. In other words, the weapon in the devil's hand is God's own law - hence the association in some passages of the law and inimical powers which Aulen was not able to read aright.'

Satan appeals to God's justice, calling on Him to punish humanity as we deserve. That is why He is called 'the adversary' and 'the accuser of the brethren.'. Consequently, the defeat of the devil must involve the removal of our guilt, and that is the way that the N.T. presents it. That is why Colossians 2:14-15 presents to us Christ's triumph on the cross to the cancellation of the bond of our debt by His substitutionary death upon the cross. Then all the principalities and powers, chief of whom was Satan, were 'disarmed.' They have nothing of which to accuse Christians because Christ has paid the penalty in full. So the ransom paid by Christ to free us from the grasp of Satan was paid to God's justice. Now the ransom has been paid, 'There is now therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.' 'Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies; who is he who condemns?' Not Satan any more! He is cast down because Christ on the cross has satisfied divine justice. Now God can be 'just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.'

Colossians 2:14-15 connects our Lord's triumph to the cross and precisely to the cancellation of the bond of our debt (as defined by the ordinances of the law) when Jesus was crucified. At that very time, the principalities and powers, chief of whom is Satan, 'disarmed.' the action has to do with the law and its demands { 'the handwriting of requirements). The cancellation of the bond is obtained through the payment of the legal debt. This is the meaning of the various 'ransom' sayings; the life, sufferings and death of the Saviour were the price paid to free human beings from bondage..

'Revelation 12 reflects the same understanding. How have the brothers overcome the devil and his host? Not by superior power, but by the blood of the Lamb (v.11). Satan was the accuser, and he prevailed as long as he could point to their sins. But the blood of the Lamb was the price paid for the cancellation of their debt. It wiped out the guilt of their sins forever, and the devil was disarmed.' [Ibid. Henri Blocher]..

I would say our hope is in the Resurrection because this is the Life we will have, the life or second birth in Christ.

We still pay, in my view, the wages of sin - but the gift of God is life in Christ Jesus.

The power of sin and death, if darkness and this world, of Satan, is destroyed not because in this life because sin, death, darkness, this world, and Satan are destroyed. They go on as they have since Adam transgressed God's command. But those powers are disarmed because they no longer lay claim to us. We will suffer the wages of sin because God is holy and immutable. It will happen and it is happening even as we converse. But God will deliver us through the wages of sin, having redeemed us by the blood of Christ. God is just. We will face the wages of sin, which is death. We will physically die and we will have to die to our old selves. But God is also the Justifier of sinners based on the work of the Cross as He was reconciling mankind to Himself in the person of Christ.

I realize that our views have many things in common. I am hesitant because I do not know that I can communicate to you what you are asking of me. The reason is I believe that you will take, as I would have years ago, my words and explanations into your framework (into the basic framework of PSA).

 

[JonC]

Most Greek prepositions have a very large semantic range. It is the context that decides the meaning.

I agree here. Context is always the trump card. But that said, context (in my view) dictates that this passage is pointing to the meaning of "sin offering" in that the Father has offered the Son for our redemption. This corresponds with Rom 3:25; 4:25; 8:3; and Gal 3:13. There are no passages that correspond with the definition that Christ being made sin is the Father imputing our sin onto Christ.

Additionally, even here you are not using "sin" to mean "sin" (literally). Otherwise we'd be faced with Christ becoming "rebellious to God/ wicked unrighteous" (which none of us believes).

How do you define "Christ was made sin"?

 

[percho]

Question: If Christ died in our place, why do we still die physically?

My guess would be is because; the dispensation of the fulness of the times, is still future.

 

[JonC]

It seems as if some are saying Jesus could have died in a nursing home as a consequence of sin and death. As long as he rose victorious.....

I do not understand this claim, precisely because Christus Victor (and Ransom Theory, Moral Influence Theory, ect.) view the Cross as that point where all of the principles of this world were set against Christ.

How do you arrive at your conclusion?

 

[JonC]

That seems pretty much like Aulen's theory (not that I'm an expert!).

I purchased his book for kindle, so when I get a chance I'll check it out.

 

[Iconoclast]

2 Corinthians 5:20-21 Commentary | Precept Austin

All the answers are contained in this link.....

Sin is going to be punished in the sinner or the substitute.

Spiritual death happened at the Fall.

Unsaved people will be raised from the dead as well as the saved.

Unsaved remain eternally punished in the realm of death.

Open the link, particularly on vs 21.
I wi open it later.

 

[AustinC]

In very simple terms, I would say that Jesus is our covenantal sacrifice. By his atonement at Calvary the New Covenant was established. God now recognizes everyone for whom the covenant was made as being holy, just as Jesus is holy.
The covenantal sacrifice was finished and accepted by God on my behalf. In essence, God the Father passed through the slain sacrifice of God the Son and made a covenant with those whom He had chosen before the creation of the world. God swore by Himself to keep that covenant with me. I cannot break that covenant which God has sworn to me.
I have no idea where that view lies in all these theories, but that is the view I take based upon reading scripture.

 

[JonShaff]

2 Corinthians 5:20-21 Commentary | Precept Austin

All the answers are contained in this link.....

Sin is going to be punished in the sinner or the substitute.

Spiritual death happened at the Fall.

Unsaved people will be raised from the dead as well as the saved.

Unsaved remain eternally punished in the realm of death.

Open the link, particularly on vs 21.
I wi open it later.

Bro, that's a great resource, but the text itself if very clear. And so is the testimony of Scripture. Christ did not become "sin" for us--really, though, what does that even mean?

Also, Look at the testimony of all of Scripture--even men that were "righteous" in whatever form were always afflicted by the accuser of the brethren and the unrighteous.

Able
Job
Isaac
Joseph
And then Look at Hebrews 11--People were sawed in two, tortured, imprisoned, etc.
And of Course, the Lord of Glory, King Jesus.

And the Scripture is clear that God will vindicate the righteous.

Did God vindicate His Son? That must mean a righteous man was unjustly treated by the unrighteous.

Isaiah 52 (bad chapter break here) declares that the obedient Servant will do the will of God.
13 Behold,
he shall be high and lifted up,
and shall be exalted.

Through His obedience of being unjustly treated by people--not the Father. The Father "used this evil for good", just like He did with Joseph.

1 Peter 2 should tell us much about this....

Who rejected Christ? His Father? NO! the builders! 1 Peter 2:7
21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps. 22 He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. 23 When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly. 24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. 25 For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

What's the context in which Peter writes this? Suffering unjustly.

19 For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endures sorrows while suffering unjustly. 20 For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure? But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God.

And then Peter gives Christ as the example of Suffering UNJUSTLY.

And in all of this, of course there are other things going on that DO coincide with PSA, none however, is the Father pouring out His wrath on Christ.

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.

Once again--He suffered, not penalized, at the hands of the unrighteous--look at context of 1 Peter 3
17 For it is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

Hebrews 9:26
Otherwise, He would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Hebrews 9:28
so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him.


Hebrews 10:10
And by that will, we have been sanctified through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Acts 3
13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus. You handed Him over and rejected Him before Pilate, even though he had decided to release Him. 14You rejected the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. 15You killed the Author of life, but God raised Him from the dead, and we are witnesses of the fact.…