Biblical Penal Substitution

[JonC]

2 Corinthians 5:20-21 Commentary | Precept Austin

All the answers are contained in this link.....

Sin is going to be punished in the sinner or the substitute.

Spiritual death happened at the Fall.

Unsaved people will be raised from the dead as well as the saved.

Unsaved remain eternally punished in the realm of death.

Open the link, particularly on vs 21.
I wi open it later.

I know PSA and and am familiar with commentaries.

The fact that unsaved people will be raised form the dead (raised to condemnation) while the saved will be raised to life is supportive of Christus Victor as well (perhaps more so as the wages of sin are dealt with as is the Judgment "on that day").

It does not help to just link one another's commentaries.

My question is why did you think that Christus Victor did not necessitate the Cross (that Christ could have died in a nursing home, or via any other means except the powers of this world come to a climax against Him)?

 

[Iconoclast]

I'm driving right now I cannot show the whole link but when I can open up that link it's going to ask answer every question plus any that haven't even been asked yet to link is very thorough and it's not just comparing this commentary with that it's very exact and zeroes in on the key issues that these other ideas do not this is sent from voice to text

 

[JonShaff]

I'm driving right now I cannot show the whole link but when I can open up that link it's going to ask answer every question plus any that haven't even been asked yet to link is very thorough and it's not just comparing this commentary with that it's very exact and zeroes in on the key issues that these other ideas do not this is sent from voice to text

Be careful out there bro!

 

[Iconoclast]

Jon's
Your post is saying Jesus was a murder victim, rather than the Divinely given substitute.
The text is clear....He was made sin for us...the link clarification is solid.

Be careful out there bro!

Crossing Minnesota should be in Wisconsin in about an hour and then I have one more delivery today and then later on I'll get on the laptop

 

[JonShaff]

Jon's
Your post is saying Jesus was a murder victim, rather than the Divinely given substitute.
The text is clear....He was made sin for us...the link clarification is solid.

The text clearly says Christ suffered unjustly. i am not sure what you want me to say? i didn't really give commentary, i just copy and pasted Scripture. God the Father used this heinous evil--as HE always planned to--to bring about good. Christ willingly gave up His life for our sins. It's all there my friend--without having to say the wrath of God was poured out on Him.

 

[JonShaff]

1 Corinthians 15:3
Christ died for our sins

Does this mean Christ died "in stead of" our sins?

 

[JonC]

Jon's
Your post is saying Jesus was a murder victim, rather than the Divinely given substitute.
The text is clear....He was made sin for us...the link clarification is solid.

Crossing Minnesota should be in Wisconsin in about an hour and then I have one more delivery today and then later on I'll get on the laptop

Yes.

My post is saying that Jesus' parables related directly to the His work of reconciliation. The Father sends the Son and the people beat and kill the Son. You cannot ignore, though, that this was the plan of God (it was His will to crush Him) and that Jesus lay down His own life. Peter said the same thing in Acts - that Jesus was handed over by the Jews to be killed by Godless men - they acted wickedly. But this was also the will of God.

That is the point of the gospel.

The text is clear, I believe. He was made sin for us. NOT that He was made to "miss the mark" or be "disobedient" (using the linked commentary) but that the Word became Flesh.

The problem with the linked commentary is not that it fails to teach a certain theology. It is very good, IMHO, for that. The problem is that it does not address other interpretations and takes for granted its own position is correct as it reads its theology into its conclusions (into the commentaries it references).

Do you believe that God literally made Jesus Christ "a deviation from God's truth or His moral rectitude" (sin as defined in your link)?

 

[JonC]

Just for another view:

For he hath made him to be sin for us - Τον μη γνοντα ἁμαρτιαν, ὑπερ ἡμων ἁμαρτιαν εποιησεν· He made him who knew no sin, (who was innocent), a sin-offering for us. The word ἁμαρτια occurs here twice: in the first place it means sin, i.e. transgression and guilt; and of Christ it is said, He knew no sin, i.e. was innocent; for not to know sin is the same as to be conscious of innocence; so, nil conscire sibi, to be conscious of nothing against one's self, is the same as nulla pallescere culpa, to be unimpeachable.

In the second place, it signifies a sin-offering, or sacrifice for sin, and answers to the חטאה chattaah and חטאת chattath of the Hebrew text; which signifies both sin and sin-offering in a great variety of places in the Pentateuch. The Septuagint translate the Hebrew word by ἁμαρτια in ninety-four places in Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers, where a sin-offering is meant; and where our version translates the word not sin, but an offering for sin.

(Clarke Commentary)

 

[JonShaff]

Just for another view:

For he hath made him to be sin for us - Τον μη γνοντα ἁμαρτιαν, ὑπερ ἡμων ἁμαρτιαν εποιησεν· He made him who knew no sin, (who was innocent), a sin-offering for us. The word ἁμαρτια occurs here twice: in the first place it means sin, i.e. transgression and guilt; and of Christ it is said, He knew no sin, i.e. was innocent; for not to know sin is the same as to be conscious of innocence; so, nil conscire sibi, to be conscious of nothing against one's self, is the same as nulla pallescere culpa, to be unimpeachable.

In the second place, it signifies a sin-offering, or sacrifice for sin, and answers to the חטאה chattaah and חטאת chattath of the Hebrew text; which signifies both sin and sin-offering in a great variety of places in the Pentateuch. The Septuagint translate the Hebrew word by ἁμαρτια in ninety-four places in Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers, where a sin-offering is meant; and where our version translates the word not sin, but an offering for sin.

(Clarke Commentary)

This is also called an "allusion" --an expression designed to call something to mind without mentioning it explicitly; an indirect or passing reference.

Other translations have "sin offering" in the footnotes, I.e. NIV

 

[Martin Marprelate]

This is also called an "allusion" --an expression designed to call something to mind without mentioning it explicitly; an indirect or passing reference.

Other translations have "sin offering" in the footnotes, I.e. NIV

There are three reasons why I don't believe that ἁμαρτια can mean 'sin offering' here. I will post those reasons tomorrow. I'm preaching on YouTube tomorrow morning to an empty church, which is actually quite difficult to do, so I need to be well prepared tonight.

 

[Iconoclast]

The text clearly says Christ suffered unjustly. i am not sure what you want me to say? i didn't really give commentary, i just copy and pasted Scripture. God the Father used this heinous evil--as HE always planned to--to bring about good. Christ willingly gave up His life for our sins. It's all there my friend--without having to say the wrath of God was poured out on Him.

jon....who took the wrath and penalty that your sins deserved?
was there no penalty?
were those sins just winked at?
Abraham goes to offer Issac gen22
God provides a substitute sacrifice
Did Abraham not slay the sacrifice?
Those who have no substitute for their sin, do they just miss out on a few nice things?
What are we told by Jesus is the condition of those who go into second death?..
weeping, nashing of teeth?
why?
what do you think my mediator, and surety took in my place?
where does the broken law of God come into your gospel proclamation Gal4:4?
where does any ACTUAL Propitiation take place in your scheme?
why was it necessary?
Your view cannot accurately portray the Covenant work of our Great High Priest without serious defect as I understand it.

 

[JonC]

jon....who took the wrath and penalty that your sins deserved?

Again, not answering for @JonShaff but providing my answer to the thread:

The question pertains only to those who hold PSA as it addresses a situation that is not biblical but presupposed in that theology. Scripture does not look for someone to take upon themselves the wrath that men deserve. What it looks for is a propitiation (someone to advert the wrath to come) and a deliverance from the powers that hold mankind in bondage.

We suffer the wages of sin(“for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” Romans 3:23; “for the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord” Romans 6:23).

In terms of the “wrath to come”, that is Christ centered (“the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son” John 5:22)

Romans 3:21-26 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.


But no one who is saved will face the wrath to come; and no one took that wrath upon themselves. There is no condemnation in Christ (Romans 8:1) and God is faithful to forgive those who turn to Him (1 John 1:9; Psalm 103:10-12; Isaiah 1:18; Luke 7:47-48; Acts 3:19; Luke 24:46-47; Ephesians 1:7-8; Colossians 1:13-14).

God is just and the Justifier of sinners (Romans 3:26)

 

[JonC]

There are three reasons why I don't believe that ἁμαρτια can mean 'sin offering' here. I will post those reasons tomorrow. I'm preaching on YouTube tomorrow morning to an empty church, which is actually quite difficult to do, so I need to be well prepared tonight.

I did not think about it before, but I bet it is very hard to preach to an empty church.

I always enjoyed the interaction when preaching.

 

[Iconoclast]

post 92 suggests my sins did not need to be punished at all, as you say...NNE TOOK THAT WRATH UPON THEMSELVES?

Why as Jesus began approaching the cross did He begin to sweat blood?

All sin is punished by the Sinner or the substitute.
It is God who punishes sin.
There is no force that mysteriously has to be overcome.
No mention of the broken law of God and yet that is central to the gospel message.

 

[JonC]

post 92 suggests my sins did not need to be punished at all, as you say...NNE TOOK THAT WRATH UPON THEMSELVES?

Why as Jesus began approaching the cross did He begin to sweat blood?

All sin is punished by the Sinner or the substitute.
It is God who punishes sin.
There is no force that mysteriously has to be overcome.
No mention of the broken law of God and yet that is central to the gospel message.

Exactly! No one took that wrath upon themselves. The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is life in Christ Jesus.

We are talking about the righteousness of God manifested apart from the law.

To go a little bit N.T. Wright here, what I am saying is that God has rescued us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of His Son,in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

 

[JonC]

post 92 .

@Iconoclast,

For clarity can you use either the quote feature, reply feature, or tag who you are addressing (the "@")?

I ask because, while I know this was addressed to me, it gets confusing with two Jon's.

Thanks

 

[Iconoclast]

JonShaff,

1 Corinthians 15:3
Christ died for our sins

Christ died for our sins...according to the scriptures

Which scriptures JonSchaff?
Which scriptures speak of the need and purpose of the cross?
Why do you suggest...we have sinned ...so Christ dies?
Why, if He dies does it relate to our sins?

Does this mean Christ died "in stead of" our sins?

Are sins alive? I do not follow this comment.

You had asked about the phrase being made sin; from the link;
1]
Murray writes that when we try to expound on God making Christ sin...

Although poieo (made) can mean “make something into something (else),” the meaning in 2Co 5:21 is not “God made the sinless one into sin” (as in the Jerusalem Bible), but “God caused the sinless one to be sin,” where poieo denotes causation or appointment and points to the divine initiative. But we should not forget that matching the Father’s set purpose to deliver Christ up to deal with sin (Acts 2:23; Ro 8:32) was Christ’s own firm resolution to go to Jerusalem to suffer (Mk 8:31; Lk 9:51). Jesus was not an unwilling or surprised participant in God’s action. (International Greek Testament)

2]
Him Who knew no sin - The sinless Lamb of God Christ Jesus. This was an absolute requirement for Jesus to qualify to bear the full wrath of God against the sins for others. Paul is referring specifically to the time of Jesus' incarnation, not to His pre-existent state.

The UBS Handbook says that...The words who knew no sin are a Hebraic expression which means “to have no personal experience with sin.”

3] Hughes adds that...Only He who was entirely without sin of His own was free to bear the sin of others. And only God-become-Man could achieve this unblemished victory over Satan and death for our fallen and rebellious race. Such a Mediator was absolutely essential for our reconciliation to God.

4]
Guzik notes that...

The idea that any man could be sinless was foreign to Jewish thinking (Ecclesiastes 8:5). But when Jesus claimed to be sinless, no one challenged Him (John 8:46). Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Paul carefully chooses his words. He does not say Jesus was made to be a sinner. Jesus never became a sinner, but He did become sin for us. Even His becoming sin was a righteous act of love, not an act of sin. Jesus was not a sinner, even on the cross. But on the cross, the Father treated Him as if He were a sinner. Yet all the while, sin was "outside" of Jesus, not "inside" Him, and a part of His nature (as it is with us).

 

[Iconoclast]

Now it continues with Spurgeon;
Spurgeon writes that in regard to Jesus being made to be sin...

Christ was not guilty, and could not be made guilty;

but He was treated as if he were guilty, because He willed to stand in the place of the guilty.


Yea, He was not only treated as a sinner, but he was treated as if He had been sin itself in the abstract.

This is an amazing utterance. The sinless One was made to be sin. Sin pressed our great Substitute very sorely. He felt the weight of it in the Garden of Gethsemane, where he “sweat as it were great drops of blood falling to the ground.” The full pressure of it came upon him when he was nailed to the accursed tree. There in the hours of darkness he bore infinitely more than we can tell. (The Heart of the Gospel)

 

[Iconoclast]

Concerning the unlikely rendering"sin offering";
Criswell writes that...This verse is a beautiful and concise summation of the gospel, a gospel of reconciliation. "To be sin" could mean "to be a sin-offering," but this gives the word "sin" two different meanings in the same breath, and it weakens the contrast with "righteousness." Paul does not say that Christ was made a sinner; indeed, His sinlessness is clearly affirmed. What Paul says is that Christ was made "to be sin." The meaning is shown by the similar statement that Christ became a curse for us (Gal. 3:13). He bore the sins of believers so that in the sight of God they might be righteous.

Here again CHS;
C. H. Spurgeon - If our Lord's bearing our sin for us is not the gospel, I have no gospel to preach.

Made...to be sin - The words "to be" are not in the Greek text but are added by the translators. Note Jesus was not made sinful but sin. Paul is not saying that Jesus became a sinner or that God made Him commit sins. The NT (see passages above) repeated testifies to our Lord's sinless state which definitively excludes the possibility that He was ever a sinner. He was not a sinner and He did not become one on the Cross! On the Cross, Christ was not personally guilty of sin. Nor was He punished for ANY SIN OF HIS OWN.

 

[Iconoclast]

Here again, commenting on your idea of a "sin offering"


James Smith - He was made sin for us. He was not made a sinner—or He could not have been an acceptable sacrifice for sin. Sin was not transfused into Him, though it was laid upon Him (1Pe 2:24). He was made an offering for sin, or a sin offering, and therefore He was treated as a sinner. The sins of all He represented, of all for whom He became a substitute—were placed to His account. He became answerable for them. He voluntarily undertook to become responsible for them (He 10:7, 9).

The whole debt became His (Ro 3:23). Our breaches of the law—were to be answered for by him.

Therefore as sin was imputed to Him, or placed to His account, it was punished in His person. All that it was necessary to inflict, in order to satisfy divine justice, and present an example of God's hatred to sin, to the universe, was inflicted on Him.

The whole curse of the law (Gal 3:13), the whole desert of sin, the whole of the wrath of God for sin, was put into one cup, and presented to Him. He looked into it and trembled, crying out, "Now is my soul troubled, and what shall I say?" He took it, and fell to the ground, blood oozing from every pore of his body, he cried in bitter agony (Lk 22:44), "If it is possible—let this cup pass from me!" (Mt 26:39)



He drank of it, and exclaimed, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mt 27:46) But it pleased the Lord to bruise him, Jehovah put him to grief, when he made his soul an offering for sin (Isa 53:10KJV). O the tremendous agony which He endured! O the depths of woe through which He waded! O the waves and billows of divine wrath, that went over Him! (From The Marvelous Exchange - James Smith)