Billy Graham on How to Become a Christian

[Darrell C]

I will only say this one more time. Explain what Jesus means in Luke 24:47 as found in the ESV translation, which is using the best textual evidence, "REPENTANCE FOR FORGIVENESS"; which means that REPENTANCE brings about FORGIVENESS of sins. This is the crux of the Gospel of the salvation for any sinner.

It is the crux of your false gospel only.

I guess you are either unable to understand the points raised to you or you simply don't care.

You demand an answer to the same question answered several times in numerous ways.

Here it is again:


And that is the inevitable result of an unstable Gospel, you combat the elements of Salvation in Christ against each other.

The above statement must be be balanced with all relevant Scripture, so I will give you a couple to seek the balance through:


Matthew 28:18-20
King James Version (KJV)

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


Acts 1:4-8
King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


God is responsible for sending out the messengers.

Now I want you to carefully consider that process as defined by Peter:


Acts 11:13-18
King James Version (KJV)

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


God grants repentance unto Life, and that is a gift of God, as you should know by now. Here we see Cornelius and his household were baptized with the Holy Ghost through the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

We don't separate repentance and make it a requirement for salvation, this nullifies the numerous passages that teach that salvation in Christ, Eternal Redemption...is freely given. That is Paul's point in regards to Abraham being justified by faith alone (believing God), if it was a work then it is then a payment for services rendered:


Go and learn what that meaneth.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

clearly you are blinded by your theology, as you remark "I know a sinner can be forgiven and saved without "first repenting.", is 100% against what Jesus says in Luke 24:27 (ESV).

That has been addressed numerous times yet you still refuse to address the points raised to you.

You are a false teacher who conveys a false gospel of works-based devilry.

This is my last comment on this, as it is clear to me that you cannot understand what the Bible teaches on a sinner being saved, nor do you really want to know!

Last comment? Great. If the false teacher will not repent and be converted to the truth, then it is sufficient that he keep his mouth closed.



So I will leave you with this:


2 Timothy 2:24-26
King James Version (KJV)

24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.



Salvation is wholly the work of Holy God, as I have tried to persuade you of before.

The good news is your false gospel has no effect on those who are born again believers, because we are shown the truth by God. You deny that you are a works-based charlatan yet call to mind our discussions about Jesus Christ, the Author and Finisher of our faith.

Yes, repentance is an element of salvation, but not a requirement.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

Great. Now if you can show me a Scripture reference to back that up I'll be happy to look at it.

As it is, what we do read is that they were justified by grace through faith and works.

When you can distinguish the temporal perspective and limitations of one being justified based on what they do with being freely justified by grace through the REdemption which is in Christ Jesus, then you will understand why your works-based view is heretical:


Romans 3:21-25
King James Version (KJV)

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


Old Testament Saints were indeed saved by grace through faith, but, they were not Eternally Redeemed. Their sins had not been atoned for:


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.




Agreed, we too are saved by grace through faith, however, the difference being is that we are, when we turn to Christ the Risen Savior...eternally redeemed at the time of salvation.




Show me where Abraham repented.

Show me where this...

Romans 3:21-25
King James Version (KJV)

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


...states we are saved freely by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus...and repentance?

Repentance is a result of His ministry in the heart of the unbeliever. When the Comforter convicts of sin, righteousness, and judgment...repentance is generated.




No, it is not the equivalent, because general faith in God could see a man justified, but, will never see a man eternally redeemed and born again:


Hebrews 6
King James Version (KJV)

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,


Nor is "looking forward to Messiah" a means of eternal redemption, because if that were the case, then we would have to say all Jews who are still looking forward to MEssiah coming (the first time) are "saved" in a New Covenant context, thereby creating a second means of salvation, thus compounding the error.




That's the point, lol.

The Jew had the Word of God, the Gentile did not, and it is the one who is the doer, not the hearer...that will stand in judgment.

So in regards to the attack on Billy Graham's statement, as I said, it is not only possible those who have never heard the Gospel can end up in Heaven, it is verified by the Word of God.

God will judge every man according to his deeds, and He will judge every man according to their response to whatever revelation God has provided to them, whether this be the Testimony of Creation, the internal witness God gives every man, or, direct revelation, which is what Paul holds the Jew accountable for in Romans 1-2.


God bless.

Every sinner that has ever, will ever get saved was by and on the basis of the death of Jesus for their behalf, and placing faith into Him as their Lord and savior.
OT believers trusted in the coming Messiah, did not know Him by name as we do now!

 

[Darrell C]

Every sinner that has ever, will ever get saved was by and on the basis of the death of Jesus for their behalf, and placing faith into Him as their Lord and savior.
OT believers trusted in the coming Messiah, did not know Him by name as we do now!

It is true all believers are eternally redeemed through the Redemption that is in Christ Jesus, but, as you have been shown many times...

...the eternal redemption, eternal remission, and eternal union of the Old Testament Saints was retroactive. They were redeemed post-mortem.

No amount of exclamation points are going to change that.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

It is true all believers are eternally redeemed through the Redemption that is in Christ Jesus, but, as you have been shown many times...

...the eternal redemption, eternal remission, and eternal union of the Old Testament Saints was retroactive. They were redeemed post-mortem.

No amount of exclamation points are going to change that.


God bless.

All are saved by Grace alone/faith alone, not by any works even in the OT!

 

[Darrell C]

All are saved by Grace alone/faith alone, not by any works even in the OT!

That is actually the point I am defending. Read the thread, Yeshua1.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

That is actually the point I am defending. Read the thread, Yeshua1.


God bless.

I have been following it, did you not write that the OT saints were saved by faith and works though?

 

[Darrell C]

I have been following it, did you not write that the OT saints were saved by faith and works though?

No, I am sure I wrote the Old Testament Saints were justified by faith and works. That is an inarguable fact of Scripture:


James 2:21-24
King James Version (KJV)

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


Now, here is what we have to consider: James, nor Paul...are equating the justification of Abraham with being freely justified by God's grace through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

While I would go so far as to say that Abraham being justified by his belief, faith, and works did secure his eternal destiny, that does not mean that he was eternally forgiven, eternally indwelt, and a born again believer in the Body of Christ as we are now in this Age. Men have always been justified or unjust based on their response to the revelation available to them. For Adam it was simple, yet he disobeyed the revelation given him. So too with Cain, who did not offer up sacrifice, but presumed to being something else. That is the familiar pattern, becoming pronounced when the Covenant of Law was established, where the will of God was literally spelled out for them.

James speaks of a temporal justification, and that is the application as seen in the context of Chapter One, unless one wanted to suggest that one can be eternally redeemed by giving out food and clothing. Abraham was justified by his works and we understand that to be the evidence of the underlying belief and faith. James' point is, "Why would anyone believe a profession of faith if there is no evidence?"

So if you saw anywhere in my statements that anyone was "saved by faith and works," let me know, because that is an error and not intended. Sometimes that happens when addressing so many posts.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I have been following it, did you not write that the OT saints were saved by faith and works though?

And my apologies, I am confusing this with the other Billy Graham thread, lol. Like I said, not uncommon when addressing so many posts.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

No, I am sure I wrote the Old Testament Saints were justified by faith and works. That is an inarguable fact of Scripture:


James 2:21-24
King James Version (KJV)

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


Now, here is what we have to consider: James, nor Paul...are equating the justification of Abraham with being freely justified by God's grace through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

While I would go so far as to say that Abraham being justified by his belief, faith, and works did secure his eternal destiny, that does not mean that he was eternally forgiven, eternally indwelt, and a born again believer in the Body of Christ as we are now in this Age. Men have always been justified or unjust based on their response to the revelation available to them. For Adam it was simple, yet he disobeyed the revelation given him. So too with Cain, who did not offer up sacrifice, but presumed to being something else. That is the familiar pattern, becoming pronounced when the Covenant of Law was established, where the will of God was literally spelled out for them.

James speaks of a temporal justification, and that is the application as seen in the context of Chapter One, unless one wanted to suggest that one can be eternally redeemed by giving out food and clothing. Abraham was justified by his works and we understand that to be the evidence of the underlying belief and faith. James' point is, "Why would anyone believe a profession of faith if there is no evidence?"

So if you saw anywhere in my statements that anyone was "saved by faith and works," let me know, because that is an error and not intended. Sometimes that happens when addressing so many posts.


God bless.

paul though in Romans though made it VERY clear that all saved, both OT/NT, were freely justified by God by faith alone in Him and His promises, on the basis of the Cross, and that the works done by Abraham or any of us for that matter, show that our faith is genuine, not ever was faith+works=salvation!

 

[Darrell C]

paul though in Romans though made it VERY clear that all saved, both OT/NT, were freely justified by God by faith alone in Him and His promises,

Sorry, no. Paul makes it very clear that everyone was considered a sinner and in need of redemption.

Look at the "now, all," and "at this time" in this:


Romans 3:21-26
King James Version (KJV)

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


Abraham was credited as being righteous through his faith, belief, and works, but that does not mean he would not need to have the imputed righteousness of Christ based on the Cross.


Galatians 4:3-6
King James Version (KJV)

3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


Note that it was at a particular time God sent His Son, and the purpose stated was to redeem those who were under the Law (and keep in mind that this includes all Old Testament Saints, but the Age of Law was the primary contrast to the New (Covenant) Age) so that we...

...might receive the adoption of sons.

What that means is that not one person was a son of God in a New Covenant sense prior to Christ coming, and we can further nail down the "when" through v.6...

...when God sent forth His Spirit.

Which is of course the sending of the Comforter for the purpose of eternally indwelling the believer.

on the basis of the Cross

Sorry, no.

The Cross retroactively redeemed the transgressions that were under the First Testament/Covenant...


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


...because it was through His blood (death on the Cross) that we receive those promises, namely...Eternal Redemption.

Abraham died in faith, not having received the promises:


Hebrews 11:13
King James Version (KJV)

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


Hebrews 11:39-40
King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


You have been shown these simple truths numerous times, Yeshua1, when are you going to seriously consider what is being said?

They are reiterated over and over in the New Testament. So take a break from posting and just read your Bible. Get with God and let Him teach you, my friend.

and that the works done by Abraham or any of us for that matter, show that our faith is genuine, not ever was faith+works=salvation!

You are denying Holy Scripture:


James 2:21-24
King James Version (KJV)

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


Not one statement of an holy Apostle or Prophet is in error, so we can believe the Word of God in this statement as well. The problem you have is that you are so invested in the Catholic/Protestant error that you cannot see that neither James or Paul are saying that Abraham's faith, belief, or works contributed to his eternal redemption.

Abraham was "saved" from an eternal perspective in that his eternal destiny was secured through his faith and obedience. But, it would not be until Christ died, rose again, returned to Heaven, and sent the Promised Spirit that men would be eternally forgiven, reconciled to God, and immersed in Eternal Union with God.

Don't let Catholic/Protestant Doctrine keep you from understanding this truth.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

Sorry, no. Paul makes it very clear that everyone was considered a sinner and in need of redemption.

Look at the "now, all," and "at this time" in this:


Romans 3:21-26
King James Version (KJV)

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


Abraham was credited as being righteous through his faith, belief, and works, but that does not mean he would not need to have the imputed righteousness of Christ based on the Cross.


Galatians 4:3-6
King James Version (KJV)

3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


Note that it was at a particular time God sent His Son, and the purpose stated was to redeem those who were under the Law (and keep in mind that this includes all Old Testament Saints, but the Age of Law was the primary contrast to the New (Covenant) Age) so that we...

...might receive the adoption of sons.

What that means is that not one person was a son of God in a New Covenant sense prior to Christ coming, and we can further nail down the "when" through v.6...

...when God sent forth His Spirit.

Which is of course the sending of the Comforter for the purpose of eternally indwelling the believer.




Sorry, no.

The Cross retroactively redeemed the transgressions that were under the First Testament/Covenant...


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


...because it was through His blood (death on the Cross) that we receive those promises, namely...Eternal Redemption.

Abraham died in faith, not having received the promises:


Hebrews 11:13
King James Version (KJV)

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


Hebrews 11:39-40
King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


You have been shown these simple truths numerous times, Yeshua1, when are you going to seriously consider what is being said?

They are reiterated over and over in the New Testament. So take a break from posting and just read your Bible. Get with God and let Him teach you, my friend.




You are denying Holy Scripture:


James 2:21-24
King James Version (KJV)

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


Not one statement of an holy Apostle or Prophet is in error, so we can believe the Word of God in this statement as well. The problem you have is that you are so invested in the Catholic/Protestant error that you cannot see that neither James or Paul are saying that Abraham's faith, belief, or works contributed to his eternal redemption.

Abraham was "saved" from an eternal perspective in that his eternal destiny was secured through his faith and obedience. But, it would not be until Christ died, rose again, returned to Heaven, and sent the Promised Spirit that men would be eternally forgiven, reconciled to God, and immersed in Eternal Union with God.

Don't let Catholic/Protestant Doctrine keep you from understanding this truth.


God bless.

All who were evr saved was by the same basis, but the same Gospel, its just that the OT saints did not have the full revealtion from God as of yet on it, but all saved just as much as we are, for can a sinner be saved unless the Spirit now indwells them?

 

[Darrell C]

All who were evr saved was by the same basis, but the same Gospel,

Not entirely accurate: Abraham did not know the Name of Jesus Christ, and in fact did not even have the revelation provided to Israel through the Prophets. He knew God would, through his offspring, bless all families of the earth, for example.

its just that the OT saints did not have the full revealtion from God as of yet on it,

Bingo.

We know this because Paul teaches clearly that the Gospel was a Mystery, which is unrevealed truth.

Think about the Rapture, that was a mystery. The Old Testament Saints believed in the resurrection of the dead (for the most part, the Sadducees, the first known annihilationists, did not, but believed that when men died that was it), but, they were not privy to revelation given us by the Spirit through Paul. They did believe Messiah was coming, but thought He would be a man. That He would die for their sins was not understood as we understand it, again, because of the revelation we have been provided. They did not know that He would be raised as the Firstborn from the dead in a glorified body, never to die again. They did not know that they, and we, would also be glorified.

As I have said numerous times, the Old Testament Saints were justified by grace through faith...and works. Their works, as you said earlier, was in fact an evidence of the belief and faith they had. The key to understanding this is to understand that being justified by grace through faith in the Old Testament was tantamount to salvation, but, it would not be until Christ died and redeemed them that the Old Testament Saints would be made perfect.

We cannot impose the receiving of the promises in the Old Testament in a practical sense, because numerous New Testament Writers, as well as Christ, deny this.

but all saved just as much as we are,

From an eternal perspective, yes, they were every bit as "saved" as we are, however, they were not eternally forgiven, eternally redeemed, eternally indwelt born again believers in the Church of Christ. The Church began at Pentecost, not a moment before. It began when God began eternally forgiving men through the Atonement, this is Reconciliation. It began when God began baptizing men into Himself, this is the Church. It began when God began allowing men to literally come into His presence at death.

Imagine if Messiah had not come yet. The Old Testament Saints would still be in Hades, and we would still be awaiting Eternal Redemption.

Its a great time to be alive, my friend, especially when we have been given eternal life, which was not given to the Old Testament Saints. So they were saved, yes, but entirely like as we.

for can a sinner be saved unless the Spirit now indwells them?

Yes, in the Old Testament economies, but not...in this Age:

Romans 8:9
King James Version (KJV)

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


They did not receive the eternal indwelling of GOd in the Old Testament, not even during Christ's Ministry:


John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


John 14:20, 22-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Kind of hard, when Christ is teaching of something that will occur in the future, to impose it into that time-frame.

They would not receive the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost in eternal indwelling, whereby they received eternal life, until after Christ was glorified:


John 7:38-39
King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


Abraham, nor the disciples during Christ's Ministry, had received those promises of the Scriptures.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

Not entirely accurate: Abraham did not know the Name of Jesus Christ, and in fact did not even have the revelation provided to Israel through the Prophets. He knew God would, through his offspring, bless all families of the earth, for example.




Bingo.

We know this because Paul teaches clearly that the Gospel was a Mystery, which is unrevealed truth.

Think about the Rapture, that was a mystery. The Old Testament Saints believed in the resurrection of the dead (for the most part, the Sadducees, the first known annihilationists, did not, but believed that when men died that was it), but, they were not privy to revelation given us by the Spirit through Paul. They did believe Messiah was coming, but thought He would be a man. That He would die for their sins was not understood as we understand it, again, because of the revelation we have been provided. They did not know that He would be raised as the Firstborn from the dead in a glorified body, never to die again. They did not know that they, and we, would also be glorified.

As I have said numerous times, the Old Testament Saints were justified by grace through faith...and works. Their works, as you said earlier, was in fact an evidence of the belief and faith they had. The key to understanding this is to understand that being justified by grace through faith in the Old Testament was tantamount to salvation, but, it would not be until Christ died and redeemed them that the Old Testament Saints would be made perfect.

We cannot impose the receiving of the promises in the Old Testament in a practical sense, because numerous New Testament Writers, as well as Christ, deny this.




From an eternal perspective, yes, they were every bit as "saved" as we are, however, they were not eternally forgiven, eternally redeemed, eternally indwelt born again believers in the Church of Christ. The Church began at Pentecost, not a moment before. It began when God began eternally forgiving men through the Atonement, this is Reconciliation. It began when God began baptizing men into Himself, this is the Church. It began when God began allowing men to literally come into His presence at death.

Imagine if Messiah had not come yet. The Old Testament Saints would still be in Hades, and we would still be awaiting Eternal Redemption.

Its a great time to be alive, my friend, especially when we have been given eternal life, which was not given to the Old Testament Saints. So they were saved, yes, but entirely like as we.




Yes, in the Old Testament economies, but not...in this Age:

Romans 8:9
King James Version (KJV)

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


They did not receive the eternal indwelling of GOd in the Old Testament, not even during Christ's Ministry:


John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


John 14:20, 22-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Kind of hard, when Christ is teaching of something that will occur in the future, to impose it into that time-frame.

They would not receive the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost in eternal indwelling, whereby they received eternal life, until after Christ was glorified:


John 7:38-39
King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


Abraham, nor the disciples during Christ's Ministry, had received those promises of the Scriptures.


God bless.

Both Abraham and David were saved by God on basis of the Cross of Christ, by grace alone and faith alone, but the OT believers had their sins remitted by god, passed over and not held against them, but the sealing and indwelling by the Spirit waited until Pentecost.

 

[TCassidy]

All the Old Testament Prophets preached Christ (Heb - Messiah - Daniel 9).

Acts 10:43 "All the prophets testify about him, that through his name everyone who believes in him will receive remission of sins.”

 

[Darrell C]

All the Old Testament Prophets preached Christ (Heb - Messiah - Daniel 9).

Acts 10:43 "All the prophets testify about him, that through his name everyone who believes in him will receive remission of sins.”

Doesn't equate to their having an understanding about the Gospel they delivered. That the Prophets "testify" of Christ refers to the fact that the truths revealed to us by the Spirit are verified by the testimony of the Prophets.

We see here...


1 Peter 1:10-12
King James Version (KJV)

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


In other words, the Prophets knew they were prophesying of future events. The question is...why is that ignored?



Romans 16:25-27
King James Version (KJV)

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


So, if you would like to take up the position that the Gospel of JEsus Christ was being revealed to men in the Old Testament (which includes Christ's Ministry up to the Cross), then I would start with these few Scriptures, and ask you to reconcile what they say with that position.

I will also add this one...


John 20:8-9
King James Version (KJV)

8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.


...and ask if Christ was revealing the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, then why is it...

...His Own Disciples did not know the Scripture that He must rise again from the dead?

Pretty much done for the day, so if you do not respond before I go, I will address any response, from you or any other, when I return.


God bless.

 

[TCassidy]

Doesn't equate to their having an understanding about the Gospel they delivered.

Gen 3:15 I will put hostility between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring. He will bruise your head, and you will bruise his heel.”

 

[Darrell C]

Both Abraham and David were saved by God on basis of the Cross of Christ,

Sorry, no, they were saved by grace through faith based on their obedience to the revelation available to them.

But thanks for your opinion.

by grace alone and faith alone,

This is true.

but the OT believers had their sins remitted by god, passed over and not held against them,

Yeshua1, you have been shown numerous times that this is not the case.

Their sins were forgiven, they did receive atonement...through animal sacrifice.

You are teaching heresy and equating the sacrifice of animals with the Sacrifice of Christ.


Hebrews 10:1-4
King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


Hebrews is specific to the people of Israel, but, the blood (death) of animals offered up by Abel, Noah, and Abraham...

...didn't take their sins, despite their receiving atonement and remission of sins through those sacrifices.

This...

Hebrews 10:14
King James Version (KJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

...is the only Sacrifice that can take away sins and the penalty, and make the comer thereunto...perfect.

That is...complete in regards to the subject the Writer is trying to teach you about, which is Remission of sins.

This is the (one) promise of God in the Old Testament...


Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version (KJV)

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Hebrews 10:15-18
King James Version (KJV)

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


Do you understand that when Abel died...men kept offering up sacrifice?

When Noah died...men kept offering up sacrifice?

When Abraham died...men kept offering up sacrifice?

When Christ died...there is no more offering for sacrifice?

Honestly, Yeshua1, this is just basic. You need to let that pulpit mythology go.

but the sealing and indwelling by the Spirit waited until Pentecost.

So did Remission of Sins on an eternal basis, as shown above.

So did Eternal Redemption, as shown here...


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Abraham and David did not receive the promises:


Hebrews 11:13
King James Version (KJV)

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


They were not made perfect:


Hebrews 11:39-40
King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


So your statement...

but the OT believers had their sins remitted by god, passed over and not held against them,

...is grave error, though a common one embraced by many.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Gen 3:15 I will put hostility between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring. He will bruise your head, and you will bruise his heel.”

The Proto Evangelium.

I have never denied that the Gospel is found throughout Scripture, that is a fact. What I am saying is that while you and I can place Genesis 3:15 in context, Adam and Eve could not.

Now, most try to limit the Mystery of the Gospel to Gentile inclusion, but I will mention that we see Gentile Inclusion throughout Scripture as well:


Genesis 12:1-3
King James Version (KJV)

1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.


Isaiah 42:5-7
King James Version (KJV)

5 Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.


So when we read...


Ephesians 3
King James Version (KJV)

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


...Paul is not saying Gentile Inclusion is the Mystery, he is clearly speaking of the Mystery of Christ.

Gentile Inclusion is pointed out as his ministry, that he should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ.

I have made green those verses relevant to his ministry, and left those relevant to the Mystery of Christ black.

We see the same distinction here:


Colossians 1:23-27
King James Version (KJV)

23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


Here we see that, again, the Mystery has been hid from Ages and generations, but is now made manifest to His Saints. In Ephesians 3 it was not revealed to "the sons of men." That is all inclusive of all men.

The "riches of the glory of the Mystery" is...

...the indwelling of God.

That is what is being discussed, not whether we see the Gospel, or Gentile Inclusion for that matter...in the Old Testament.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Gen 3:15 I will put hostility between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring. He will bruise your head, and you will bruise his heel.”

If you are going to ignore the points made, then do not waste space in the thread.


God bless.