Billy Graham on How to Become a Christian

[Darrell C]

Gen 3:15 I will put hostility between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring. He will bruise your head, and you will bruise his heel.”

So you want to show me where Adam and Eve were told that Jesus Christ died for their sins, and that having done that has brought about Reconciliation?

It's not there.

It will not be until His Name is announced...


Matthew 1:21
King James Version (KJV)

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.


...that men would begin to call upon the name Jesus Christ for their salvation.

And unless you want to say that those who embrace the Hebrew Scriptures and believe on a coming Messiah are eternally redeemed through that faith in the Prophecy, which would mean that you would have to consider all the people who reject Jesus Christ and still await His coming as eternally redeemed, then you will have to acknowledge that salvation in Christ is through placing faith in Jesus Christ and specifically in His death.

So if you want to show me another means by which men can be eternally redeemed, which is what being "saved" in this Age means, feel free.

And that is it for me for the night.

I would ask that you do not do as the others have done, and try to address the points being presented to you.

Hope you and all here have a blessed evening, and a great day in the Lord tomorrow.


God bless.

 

[TCassidy]

It's not there.

Because you can't see it does not mean it is not there.

"To Him gave ALL THE PROPHETS witness." Accept it or reject it.

 

[TCassidy]

If you are going to ignore the points made, then do not waste space in the thread.

I'm sorry you didn't understand. I will be glad to explain it to you. Just ask.

 

[TCassidy]

Now, most try to limit the Mystery of the Gospel to Gentile inclusion, but I will mention that we see Gentile Inclusion throughout Scripture as well:

Of course. Because, compared to you, Adam and Eve were really, really stupid.

 

[Darrell C]

So you want to show me where Adam and Eve were told that Jesus Christ died for their sins, and that having done that has brought about Reconciliation?

It's not there.

Because you can't see it does not mean it is not there.

It's not there.


Hebrews 11:13
King James Version (KJV)

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


Hebrews 11:39-40
King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


2 Corinthians 5:14-19
King James Version (KJV)

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

"To Him gave ALL THE PROPHETS witness." Accept it or reject it.

Thais just basic: the Prophets testify in advance and after the fact.

Now, one simple question: were the Old Testament Saints baptized into Christ?

Because if you are teaching that men were reconciled prior to the Cross, that is what you are teaching.

Please answer the question.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Now, most try to limit the Mystery of the Gospel to Gentile inclusion, but I will mention that we see Gentile Inclusion throughout Scripture as well:

Of course. Because, compared to you, Adam and Eve were really, really stupid.

[Discussing Moderator Action in Open Forum]

It isn't a matter of intellect, it is a matter of Revelation:


Galatians 3:22-26
King James Version (KJV)

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.


Why is it that men needed to be justified by Faith in Christ?

Why is is that Paul teaches that the Faith was not revealed prior to this Age?

How is it that men were trusting in Christ when the last Age available has them...under Law?

When Is Paul talking about when he says "But after that faith is come...?


Now, another question, adding to the first: if men were baptized into Christ, why then is it only after Pentecost that men are "made one in Christ?"


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I'm sorry you didn't understand. I will be glad to explain it to you. Just ask.

I've been asking for years, lol.

It is highly unlikely you will at this time take the discussion serious.

Yes, explain it to me, [Name Calling Edited] I will try to ask simple questions along the way, perhaps you would deign to bestow some of that [Name Calling Edited] and straighten me out.

Here is the simple question for this post:


John 20:8-9
King James Version (KJV)

8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.


Explain.

Why did they as yet not know the Scripture that Christ should rise from the dead?


God bless.

 

[glad4mercy]

would you say that the clip is Biblical?

Sadly, I say no.

 

[TCassidy]

Why did they as yet not know the Scripture that Christ should rise from the dead?

Because they were ignorant of the OT, not because God failed to tell them.

 

[TCassidy]

Why is it that men needed to be justified by Faith in Christ?

Because they were lost in trespass and sin.

Why is is that Paul teaches that the Faith was not revealed prior to this Age?

He didn't.

How is it that men were trusting in Christ when the last Age available has them...under Law?

Ever "age" has been an age of Grace. The law never saved anyone. This is the great theological error of excessive application of the dispensational hermeneutic.

When Is Paul talking about when he says "But after that faith is come...?

Individually.

Now, another question, adding to the first: if men were baptized into Christ, why then is it only after Pentecost that men are "made one in Christ?"

They aren't and they aren't.

 

[TCassidy]

Now, one simple question: were the Old Testament Saints baptized into Christ?

No. Baptismal regeneration is a damnable doctrine straight out of the pit of hell.

Because if you are teaching that men were reconciled prior to the Cross, that is what you are teaching.

Wrong again. The Old Testament saints were reconciled to Christ "slain from the foundation of the world."

 

[Martin Marprelate]

So you want to show me where Adam and Eve were told that Jesus Christ died for their sins, and that having done that has brought about Reconciliation?

It's not there.

It will not be until His Name is announced...

This may seem a little off topic, but I wonder if you can riddle me a riddle. Can you tell me why Abel is a prophet (Luke 11:51-52) and how it is that he's still speaking now he's dead (Hebrews 11:4) since there is no record of him speaking whilst he was alive (Genesis 4:1-8)? I'm looking for something more than his blood speaking, though it does that. What is he saying?

 

[Darrell C]

Why did they as yet not know the Scripture that Christ should rise from the dead?

Because they were ignorant of the OT, not because God failed to tell them.

But that is not what everyone is trying to argue, lol: they are trying to argue that Christ was preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ and it was being revealed to men.

And this...

John 20:8-9
King James Version (KJV)

8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.


...denies that argument. They did not know...not yet.

You have approached this debate with the same misunderstanding many come into it with, thinking I am denying that the Gospel is foretold. But you should know the difference between Prophecy and Revelation.

The Messiah was right there, and told them directly the Gospel, and they did not believe before the Cross, nor after.

The reason?

John 20:8-9
King James Version (KJV)

8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.


And when did that revelation begin?


Ephesians 3
King James Version (KJV)

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;


Undeniable. And again, trying to make this refer to Gentile Inclusion only establishes more error:


1. It suggests men were being Baptized with the Holy Ghost (which is being baptized in God, into Christ, and is the moment we receive eternal life);

2. It suggests that Jews already knew and understood, despite the Mystery being hidden and not revealed since the world began;

3. It denies that God has always saved men from the beginning and Jew/Gentile played no part in that;

4. It denies that both Jew and Gentile are now, in this Age...made one in Christ, and that was not happening prior to Pentecost (when men began being eternally indwelt);

5. It equates the redemption and atonement provided in Old Testament Economies with The Atonement, and The Redemption (which is eternal) which is through Christ Jesus;

6. It denies very clear statements concerning the unbelief (in Christ and His Resurrection) of the disciples;

7. It denies the clear teaching that Redemption was Prophecy in the Old Testament and fulfilled in Christ;

8. Lastly, and worst of all, it demands a different means of Eternal Redemption than Christ's Sacrifice and Resurrection.


I could actually keep going with this list but that is enough to goad anyone who holds to the popular pulpit mythology of the Eternal Redemption of the Old Testament Saints to address these questions.

Will you? Or will you once again step in and make an "It was answered by Minister So and So in Post#what-have-you...so move on!"?

I dare you to engage in this discussion.

I double dog dare you.




God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Why is it that men needed to be justified by Faith in Christ?

Because they were lost in trespass and sin.

You're missing the point:

Galatians 3:22-26
King James Version (KJV)

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.


The argument presented is "Men have always been justified by grace through faith (though many reverse that and think we have been justified by faith through grace, quite a different story)," yet here Paul teaches that the Promise was received by men through faith in Christ, specifically, The Faith of Jesus Christ. And for those who think this refers to Christ's faith it doesn't change what is being said, because we still see promises given in the Old Testament and the Promises received through Christ.

My question to you is...if men were already being justified by faith...why was there yet another faith to come? Again, this is specific faith in Christ.

We also see that this Faith was to be revealed afterwards. After what, TCassidy?

We also see men were not being brought to Christ. How could they, when they were under Law? Do you deny the authority of that Covenant? Was not Christ made under the Law? Did He not minister under the Law? Did He not...abrogate the Law by fulfilling it?

We also see that The Faith came at a specific time (vv.23, 25). The implication is that...

...it was not present before it came.

These points are open to anyone that feels they can reconcile these basic truths to the popular pulpit mythology that the Old Testament Saints were already Eternally Redeemed through Christ, and that it was "applied to them prior to the Cross."


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Why is is that Paul teaches that the Faith was not revealed prior to this Age?

He didn't.

He did:

Galatians 3:22-26
King James Version (KJV)

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.


The faith of Christ was not present during the time of the Law...that is made clear in "But before faith came (they were kept under Law)" and "But after that faith came."

Acknowledge this simple truth.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

How is it that men were trusting in Christ when the last Age available has them...under Law?

Ever "age" has been an age of Grace.

That too is an undeniable basic truth, the problem is...it's a false argument, because I have never denied that.

The point being raised is that despite the fact that men were saved by grace through faith in the Old Testament, they were not Eternally Redeemed, eternally forgiven, eternally indwelt, and as I asked you about before...

...reconciled to God.

They were not baptized into Christ.

Secondly, while God's grace has been seen throughout history since the world began, salvation established by the Gospel of Christ, which Paul teaches plainly was a Mystery and not revealed since the world began...was not:


Romans 16:24-26
King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Again, if you try to establish Jews already had this revelation...what about those who were saved by grace prior to the creation of Israel?

How, when we just saw Paul teach in Galatians 3...can you have them under Law embracing a faith that was not even revealed yet? They were shut up unto the Law until that faith came, remember?

How is it that men were trusting in Christ when the last Age available has them...under Law?

Ever "age" has been an age of Grace. The law never saved anyone.

TCassidy, I want you to think about that remark: why, when I am arguing that the Faith of Jesus Christ and being justified freely through the (Eternal) Redemption which is through Jesus Christ (specifically His Offering of Himself and His Resurrection, which takes place just prior to this Age being established)...

...would you charge me with teaching men were saved through the Law?

How is it that men were trusting in Christ when the last Age available has them...under Law?

This is the great theological error of excessive application of the dispensational hermeneutic.

Twaddle.

It is just basic to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and the one thing that leaves many other systems drawing such erroneous conclusions.

You cannot deny the simple points being made, not even in the few that I have offered since you joined the discussion.

You said you would explain my error...now do so.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

When Is Paul talking about when he says "But after that faith is come...?

Individually.

I agree, but, it was to those who were no longer under the Law, lol.

It's right there, TCassidy.

Now, another question, adding to the first: if men were baptized into Christ, why then is it only after Pentecost that men are "made one in Christ?"

They aren't and they aren't.

Better think that through again.

Are you seriously denying that it was after Pentecost, when the Promised Spirit was sent, and when men began to be Baptized with the Holy Ghost...

...that men were then made one with Christ?


John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


John 14:20-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


I am glad you deny men were baptized into Christ in the Old Testament, now it is up to you to reconcile why that is and how they were ETernally REdeemed without being in Christ.

They weren't even forgiven their sins at that point.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Now, one simple question: were the Old Testament Saints baptized into Christ?

No. Baptismal regeneration is a damnable doctrine straight out of the pit of hell.

We aren't talking about Baptismal Regeneration (and I agree it is demon doctrine).

We are talking about whether men were baptized, immersed...into Christ?

The answer is no, yet you, and pretty much everyone on this forum that I have debated...equates men not in Christ to the Church, the Body of Christ, which is made up of men and women immersed into God in eternal union, having been reconciled through the Death, burial, and Resurrection of Christ.

Most teach that they were born again, which has men new creatures before they are even indwelt by God.

While that is not necessarily demon doctrine, just confusion, it is no less harmful to the understanding of the Saints.

Because if you are teaching that men were reconciled prior to the Cross, that is what you are teaching.

Wrong again. The Old Testament saints were reconciled to Christ "slain from the foundation of the world."

I'm not wrong. I'm the only one that can remain in this discussion and not be presented with Scripture that denies what I am saying. I am in fact presenting the Scripture which supports, irrefutably, what I am saying.

So we have a starting point: you agree men were not baptized into Christ in the Old Testament, right?

Would you agree with this...


2 Corinthians 5:17-21
King James Version (KJV)

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


Abraham was declared righteous, just, but, he was not made the righteousness of God through Christ...

...until Christ actually died in his stead.

He died in the same boat as all other Old Testament Saints (with the exception of Noah, lol (just a little humor there)), he died still in need of the Redeemer prophesied to come to redeem men.

That is just simple truth taught throughout the New Testament, and stated directly here:


Romans 3:21-25
King James Version (KJV)

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

This may seem a little off topic, but I wonder if you can riddle me a riddle. Can you tell me why Abel is a prophet (Luke 11:51-52)

This is how I see it: Abel is viewed as a Prophet through his "speaking" both for the will of God (in that he offered up sacrifice rather than tried to approach God in what is evidently contrary to God's will (and his sacrifice correlates to the Old Testament provision for remission of sins and atonement)) as well as prophetically preaching Christ (again through His sacrifice):


Hebrews 12:22-24
King James Version (KJV)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


We know it is not talking about Abel's death, because Abel did not die on the behalf of anyone, he was murdered. If you notice, the Writer contrasts the Church and the "spirits of just men made perfect," which if you follow the theme of perfection taught by the Writer, draws us to the conclusion that in view is what Christ accomplished contrasted to what the Law did not accomplish, which is given the additional point which basically has the Writer telling us "And not only that, but, you are come to the Sacrifice which is superior and not to be equated to any of the Old Testament sacrifices...going all the way back to Abel."

Pretty cool, no.

What do you think it means?

and how it is that he's still speaking now he's dead (Hebrews 11:4)

The key is in his intro:


Hebrews 11
King James Version (KJV)

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.


By...his faith, evidenced in his works (the offering up of sacrifice).

Again, the theme of perfection is an important issue in Hebrews, and helps us understand the primary thrust of what the Writer seeks to convey to his brethren (the Hebrews). Note again that by faith the elders/fathers obtained a good report, but...


Hebrews 11:39-40
King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


...they did not receive the promises, because God provided something better for us (meaning it began in our time (Paul's Day)) that they, the Old Testament Saints (that did not receive the promises of God) should not without us...

...be made perfect (complete, which is what Christ came to do).


Hebrews 12:22-24
King James Version (KJV)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


The Old Testament Saints had no access to God in Heaven...


Hebrews 9:8-9
King James Version (KJV)

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;


...that they might come into His presence, hence they went to Sheol/Hades when they died.

Their perfection took place when Christ died on the Cross, and they were liberated from Sheol/Hades and taken to Heaven to be in the presence of God.

Here is another curious statement:


Ephesians 1:9-11
King James Version (KJV)

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:


It was at a specific time when God began gathering together in one all things in Christ. Paul is speaking after the fact of the just spirits (the Old Testament Saints who died not having received the promises, not having been made perfect) and believers already dead, and...those in Christ on the earth. Note He has made known unto us the Mystery of His Will.

That's the reception of the Promise of inheritance.

And it is eternal:


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

since there is no record of him speaking whilst he was alive (Genesis 4:1-8)?

He did: he said "I believe in you God, and I will obey."

And he is presented as an example of faith.

It's strange to me that probably the most important statement in Hebrews 11 is the faithful of the Old Testament died not having received the promises and were not made perfect (which in Chapter Ten he clarifies as relating to the complete remission of sins on an eternal basis) but we never hear anyone pointing out that issue.

I'm looking for something more than his blood speaking, though it does that. What is he saying?

Sorry, but it is not "his blood" speaking, it is his faith in God and his obedience to God that speaks to men today, even as Abraham's faith speaks to men today.


God bless.

 

[TCassidy]

We are talking about whether men were baptized, immersed...into Christ?

No. Baptismal regeneration is a damnable doctrine straight out of the pit of hell.

I'm the only one that can remain in this discussion and not be presented with Scripture that denies what I am saying.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

...until Christ actually died in his stead.

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.