Baptism has nothing to do with being in Christ.
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Billy Graham on How to Become a Christian
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Baptismal regeneration is a damnable doctrine straight out of the pit of hell.
Darrell,
Thank you for taking my riddle seriously and for spending time thinking about it and answering it. I'm in agreement with much of what you have written. However, you wrote:
So what is Abel the prophet saying to us today? I believe that he's saying this; "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved- trust in His blood shed for you on the cross. Make that your only hope; plead nothing but His death before God."
Now where do we get all that from? Well, to find it we shall have to look at the Bible as Abel knew it, because Abel believed the Bible. Now since Abel dies in Genesis 4, all he would have known is Gen 1-3, which he would have learned from his parents. They would have told him of their early life in a perfect world, their terrible fall through sin and the hope that God gave them.
We know that when God made the world, He looked at it and saw that, ‘Indeed, it was very good’ (Gen 1:31 ). That means that there was no sin, no decay and no death. Mankind was placed in this wonderful environment as a steward of it, ‘to tend and keep it’ (Gen 2:15 ). We are told in Gen 2:25, ‘They were both naked, the man and his wife and were not ashamed.’ To put this theologically, they had no covering for sin- there was no arrangement to deal with sin; no apparent way for Adam and Eve to be restored if they disobeyed God, but that did not seem to matter because there was no sin. All the couple needed to do was to obey the voice of their Creator and all would be well.
We need not detain ourselves with the details of Adam and Eve’s sad fall into sin, but immediately they were aware that something had changed forever. ‘Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings’ (Gen 3:7 ). Fig leaves! If you ever visit Italy and visit the museums there to look at the Renaissance art , you will see a lot of nude statues, and for modesty’s sake a fig leaf is often placed in the appropriate position. It doesn’t work- it doesn’t really hide anything; you know exactly what’s there! That’s how it was for Adam and Eve. God saw right through their covering to the sin beneath. And that’s how it is when we try to cover our own sin, with good deeds or with religious rituals- God can see right through it! Isaiah 64:6 says that all our righteous deeds are like filthy rags- totally unacceptable to God as a covering for sin. Habakkuk 1:13 tells us that God is, ‘of purer eyes than to behold evil, and cannot look upon wickedness.’ but as for Man, ‘There is none who does good; no, not one’ (Psalm 14:1 ). The covering for our sin must come from God Himself if it is going to be acceptable to Him.
Now look at Gen 3:15. God is pronouncing judgement upon the serpent. “And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your Seed and her seed; He shall bruise your head and you shall bruise His heel.’ Who is this who is the Seed or Offspring of the woman but not of the man? Who else but the Lord Jesus Christ, born by the power of the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary? He is the One who will suffer (the bruising of the heel), but will crush the head of Satan. This is God’s way of redemption; to release His people from the power of sin and death through a second Adam (1Cor 15:22 ); through the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. And this salvation was announced to Adam and Eve in Eden and signified by God Himself when He clothed the guilty couple. ‘Also for Adam and his wife the LORD God made tunics of skin, and clothed them’ (Gen 3:21 ), and in order for that to happen, an innocent creature had to die, signifying that, ‘without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin’ (Heb 9:22 ). The justice of God does not permit it.
Now all this Abel knew. He would have heard the whole story from his parents. This was his Bible, and God the Holy Spirit opened his heart to receive it all as truth. He saw himself in his true colours, as a sinner in desperate need of redemption. And he saw that his only hope lay in a covering or atonement for his sin. He needed a Saviour- one who would take away his sin by being a perfect, holy, spotless sacrifice of propitiation, acceptable to God. In short, he looked down the centuries and saw by the eye of faith the Lord Jesus Christ bleeding and dying on the cross for him. ‘For so God loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.’ He may not have known His name and the exact nature of His atonement, but Abel, moved with love for the God who loved him so much, took the finest lamb of his flock and sacrificed it to the Lord as a foreshadowing of the Lamb of God, who should take away the sin of the world (John 1:29 ). ‘By faith Abel offered a more excellent sacrifice’ (Heb 11:4 ). It was not the sacrifice that made him righteous before God. Heb 10:4 tells us that the sacrifice of animals cannot take away sin. It was his faith that made the sacrifice acceptable to God inasmuch as it looked forward to Christ, the one true acceptable offering to God. Abel knew nothing of circumcision, and nothing of baptism. The one was an ordinance for the Jewish people, the other is an ordinance for Christians, but neither brings salvation. Only the blood of Christ does that, whether looking forward to the cross as did Abel and Abraham (John 8:56 ) or back towards it as Christians do today. No religious rite can bring us to God, only trust in the work of Christ.
Let me ask all those who read this; have you stood where Abel stood? Have you seen yourself as a guilty sinner, justly condemned by God? Have you looked back down the years by faith, as Abel looked forward, to the cross? There is no sacrifice now; Christ has made one perfect offering forever (Heb 10:12 ), but when you take the bread and wine in the Lord’s Supper, do you remember the Saviour who stood between you and hell and took your punishment upon Himself?
Now what shall we say about Cain? Well, he believed in God, you know. Oh yes! A regular church-goer Cain was. Gen 4:3. ‘And in the process of time……Cain brought an offering of the Fruit of the ground to the LORD.’ If he’d been a member of your church, he’d have had a standing order, or Gift-aid. So many bushels of wheat a month, tax deductable. In fact, I suggest that Cain is alive and well and living in churches up and down the country. But, ‘the LORD respected Abel and his offering, but He did not respect Cain and his offering’ (Gen 4:4-5 ).
In the light of this, how can anyone say that doctrine doesn’t matter? Here is a straightforward doctrinal difference between Cain and Abel and one is acceptable to God and one isn’t. Cain’s doctrine acknowledges God as Creator, but not as Saviour. Cain feels a little queasy with all this blood theology. Cain says, “It doesn’t matter what you believe as long as you’re sincere.” Cain’s into the Inter-faith movement, the Ecumenical movement and the Emerging Church movement; he brings to God what he decides will do-- 'an offering of the fruit of the ground'-- a couple of carrots , a turnip and a sweet potato, but the prophet Abel brings a brought 'of the firstborn of his flock,' a 'lamb without blemish and without spot' (1 Peter 1:19), knowing that 'It must be perfect to be accepted.' The prophet Abel says, “I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified” (1Cor 2:2 ). The prophet Abel says, “Jews request a sign, and Greeks demand wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified” (1Cor 1:22-23 ). The prophet Abel says, “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12 ).
Thank you for taking my riddle seriously and for spending time thinking about it and answering it. I'm in agreement with much of what you have written. However, you wrote:
His blood cried out from the earth for justice (Genesis 4:10). That is why 'the blood of sprinkling...speaks better things than that of Abel' (Hebrews 12:24). The blood of Abel cries out for retribution; the blood of Christ crucified cries out, "Father, forgive them....."Darrell C said:
So what is Abel the prophet saying to us today? I believe that he's saying this; "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved- trust in His blood shed for you on the cross. Make that your only hope; plead nothing but His death before God."
Now where do we get all that from? Well, to find it we shall have to look at the Bible as Abel knew it, because Abel believed the Bible. Now since Abel dies in Genesis 4, all he would have known is Gen 1-3, which he would have learned from his parents. They would have told him of their early life in a perfect world, their terrible fall through sin and the hope that God gave them.
We know that when God made the world, He looked at it and saw that, ‘Indeed, it was very good’ (Gen 1:31 ). That means that there was no sin, no decay and no death. Mankind was placed in this wonderful environment as a steward of it, ‘to tend and keep it’ (Gen 2:15 ). We are told in Gen 2:25, ‘They were both naked, the man and his wife and were not ashamed.’ To put this theologically, they had no covering for sin- there was no arrangement to deal with sin; no apparent way for Adam and Eve to be restored if they disobeyed God, but that did not seem to matter because there was no sin. All the couple needed to do was to obey the voice of their Creator and all would be well.
We need not detain ourselves with the details of Adam and Eve’s sad fall into sin, but immediately they were aware that something had changed forever. ‘Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings’ (Gen 3:7 ). Fig leaves! If you ever visit Italy and visit the museums there to look at the Renaissance art , you will see a lot of nude statues, and for modesty’s sake a fig leaf is often placed in the appropriate position. It doesn’t work- it doesn’t really hide anything; you know exactly what’s there! That’s how it was for Adam and Eve. God saw right through their covering to the sin beneath. And that’s how it is when we try to cover our own sin, with good deeds or with religious rituals- God can see right through it! Isaiah 64:6 says that all our righteous deeds are like filthy rags- totally unacceptable to God as a covering for sin. Habakkuk 1:13 tells us that God is, ‘of purer eyes than to behold evil, and cannot look upon wickedness.’ but as for Man, ‘There is none who does good; no, not one’ (Psalm 14:1 ). The covering for our sin must come from God Himself if it is going to be acceptable to Him.
Now look at Gen 3:15. God is pronouncing judgement upon the serpent. “And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your Seed and her seed; He shall bruise your head and you shall bruise His heel.’ Who is this who is the Seed or Offspring of the woman but not of the man? Who else but the Lord Jesus Christ, born by the power of the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary? He is the One who will suffer (the bruising of the heel), but will crush the head of Satan. This is God’s way of redemption; to release His people from the power of sin and death through a second Adam (1Cor 15:22 ); through the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. And this salvation was announced to Adam and Eve in Eden and signified by God Himself when He clothed the guilty couple. ‘Also for Adam and his wife the LORD God made tunics of skin, and clothed them’ (Gen 3:21 ), and in order for that to happen, an innocent creature had to die, signifying that, ‘without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin’ (Heb 9:22 ). The justice of God does not permit it.
Now all this Abel knew. He would have heard the whole story from his parents. This was his Bible, and God the Holy Spirit opened his heart to receive it all as truth. He saw himself in his true colours, as a sinner in desperate need of redemption. And he saw that his only hope lay in a covering or atonement for his sin. He needed a Saviour- one who would take away his sin by being a perfect, holy, spotless sacrifice of propitiation, acceptable to God. In short, he looked down the centuries and saw by the eye of faith the Lord Jesus Christ bleeding and dying on the cross for him. ‘For so God loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.’ He may not have known His name and the exact nature of His atonement, but Abel, moved with love for the God who loved him so much, took the finest lamb of his flock and sacrificed it to the Lord as a foreshadowing of the Lamb of God, who should take away the sin of the world (John 1:29 ). ‘By faith Abel offered a more excellent sacrifice’ (Heb 11:4 ). It was not the sacrifice that made him righteous before God. Heb 10:4 tells us that the sacrifice of animals cannot take away sin. It was his faith that made the sacrifice acceptable to God inasmuch as it looked forward to Christ, the one true acceptable offering to God. Abel knew nothing of circumcision, and nothing of baptism. The one was an ordinance for the Jewish people, the other is an ordinance for Christians, but neither brings salvation. Only the blood of Christ does that, whether looking forward to the cross as did Abel and Abraham (John 8:56 ) or back towards it as Christians do today. No religious rite can bring us to God, only trust in the work of Christ.
Let me ask all those who read this; have you stood where Abel stood? Have you seen yourself as a guilty sinner, justly condemned by God? Have you looked back down the years by faith, as Abel looked forward, to the cross? There is no sacrifice now; Christ has made one perfect offering forever (Heb 10:12 ), but when you take the bread and wine in the Lord’s Supper, do you remember the Saviour who stood between you and hell and took your punishment upon Himself?
Now what shall we say about Cain? Well, he believed in God, you know. Oh yes! A regular church-goer Cain was. Gen 4:3. ‘And in the process of time……Cain brought an offering of the Fruit of the ground to the LORD.’ If he’d been a member of your church, he’d have had a standing order, or Gift-aid. So many bushels of wheat a month, tax deductable. In fact, I suggest that Cain is alive and well and living in churches up and down the country. But, ‘the LORD respected Abel and his offering, but He did not respect Cain and his offering’ (Gen 4:4-5 ).
In the light of this, how can anyone say that doctrine doesn’t matter? Here is a straightforward doctrinal difference between Cain and Abel and one is acceptable to God and one isn’t. Cain’s doctrine acknowledges God as Creator, but not as Saviour. Cain feels a little queasy with all this blood theology. Cain says, “It doesn’t matter what you believe as long as you’re sincere.” Cain’s into the Inter-faith movement, the Ecumenical movement and the Emerging Church movement; he brings to God what he decides will do-- 'an offering of the fruit of the ground'-- a couple of carrots , a turnip and a sweet potato, but the prophet Abel brings a brought 'of the firstborn of his flock,' a 'lamb without blemish and without spot' (1 Peter 1:19), knowing that 'It must be perfect to be accepted.' The prophet Abel says, “I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified” (1Cor 2:2 ). The prophet Abel says, “Jews request a sign, and Greeks demand wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified” (1Cor 1:22-23 ). The prophet Abel says, “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12 ).
Not only does your response ignore the point made...
...it doesn't even make sense in light of the above quote: "We aren't talking about Baptismal Regeneration." "No. Baptismal regeneration is a damnable doctrine straight out of the pit of hell."
"I agree, it is a demon doctrine." "No. Baptismal regeneration is a damnable doctrine straight out of the pit of hell."
Like I said...
Speaks of God's pre-determinate plan, not that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world.
Christ was slain from the foundation of the world (in figure), but, we do not equate animal sacrifice with that of Christ.
Oh, my apologies...you do do that.
And you teach others to do that.
Your proof-text does not nullify...
Galatians 4
King James Version (KJV)
1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Romans 14:9
King James Version (KJV)
9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
John 3:14-16
King James Version (KJV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Eternal life is made possible only through Christ dying for the sinner. He came into this world to bestow that life, which is something you should be familiar with, though it seems you are not.
Again, ignoring the points and Scripture.
What, is there something in the water around here?
And speaking of water and eternal life...
John 7:38-39
King James Version (KJV)
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
John 6:40
King James Version (KJV)
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:49-54
King James Version (KJV)
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
1 John 1
King James Version (KJV)
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us)
Romans 16:24-26
King James Version (KJV)
24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
For those who might be interested in why those denying these simple truths are in error, I have inserted links to Strong's, take a look.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ was a Mystery (unrevealed truth) kept secret since the world began (v.25).
It is now revealed (v.26).
Those. like my present antagonist, who wish to cling to their popular pulpit mythology that the Atonement was applied to the Old Testament Saints prior to the Cross refuse (as he and everyone entering into this discussion has done) to address the points raised to them, and if you notice...
...most will not even quote the Scriptures given.
We have to wonder why people professing Christ are so adamantly opposed to the Word of God, and why they refuse to defend their "faith." We have to wonder why the Mystery seems to remain mystery to them.
God bless.
TCassidy, since you are apparently refusing to address the points from here on out your responses will be dealt with as the joke they are. Hope your getting a good laugh, I know I am. I could not possibly do a better job convincing people that you have no ability to approach this discussion.
Okay folks TCassidy said in response to several questions asked of him (where water baptism is never mentioned, nor Baptismal Regeneration (and I am just guessing he knows what that is))...
To which I replied (and you can see the quote
, I leave it out because I want what is said to be seen and the quote minimizes it)...
Better think that through again.
Are you seriously denying that it was after Pentecost, when the Promised Spirit was sent, and when men began to be Baptized with the Holy Ghost...
...that men were then made one with Christ?
John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
John 14:20-23
King James Version (KJV)
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
I am glad you deny men were baptized into Christ in the Old Testament, now it is up to you to reconcile why that is and how they were Eternally Redeemed without being in Christ.
They weren't even forgiven their sins at that point.
In view is the Eternal Indwelling of God, which is synonymous being baptized into Christ, and being Baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Now what are we to think?
1. TCassidy didn't understand the point being made?
2. TCassidy didn't want to admit his doctrine is erroneous?
3. TCassidy denies the Baptism into Christ and the Baptism with the Holy Ghost?
4. TCassidy denies the Baptism into Christ and the Baptism with the Holy Ghost are necessary to be eternally redeemed?
5. TCassidy is simply trying to aggravate someone he dislikes?
God knoweth.
God bless.
I am sorry you come to the conclusion that baptismal regeneration was in view. Thought I gave you enough to understand what was in view.
Oh, that's right...I did:
Go and learn what that meaneth.
God bless.
I am sorry you failed to understand my point. I will be glad to explain it to you if you really want to hear it.
You said "baptism." The bible says there is "one baptism." When I say "baptism" I refer to the "one baptism" of the bible. It is you who is referring to a false, usually Crazymatic, teaching.
You conflate the manifestations of the Personal Presence of the 3rd Person of the Godhead with immersion of the church, collectively, into the Holy Spirit by the Lord Jesus Christ.
You invented a false "synonymous" conflation.
You are to think after the clear teachings of the word of God.
I understood your false point. It is you who does not understand what Christ immersing the church, collectively, into the Holy Spirit is all about.
My doctrine is bible. Yours is error. Never, never, anywhere in the bible is the Holy Spirit ever the active voice baptizer. It was Christ doing the immersing of the church, collectively, into the Holy Spirit. You have it just exactly backwards.
As the bible never teaches any such thing, and as the Holy Spirit is NEVER the active voice baptizer, and it is Christ Who is doing the immersing, it would seem that it is YOU who is denying the clear teaching of scripture.
False teaching plus false teaching does not equal eternal redemption. It just equals false teaching.
And who would that be?
Mat 3:11 I (John the Baptist) indeed baptize you in water unto repentance: but he that comes after me (The Lord Jesus Christ) is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He (The Lord Jesus Christ) shall baptize you inthe Holy Spirit, and with fire.
There we have it. The bible says that it is Jesus who baptizes the church, collectively, in the Holy Spirit, and that the Holy Spirit never baptizes anybody.
There we have it. The bible says that it is Jesus who baptizes the church, collectively, in the Holy Spirit, and that the Holy Spirit never baptizes anybody.
Now that sounds familiar:
And I don't appreciate you editing out my sarcasm, lol.
Get serious, TCassidy. You edit out my sarcasm and ignore the points raised.
You seriously think saying "You are in error" and "Your doctrine is false" is how one handles false doctrine and error?
Again I tell you...
...yes! Explain!
Address the points being raised or go back to trolling for something you can address.
I'd settle for an undocumented quote from MacArthur's Study Bible.
Continued...
Great, now when you can find me teaching that it is the Holy Spirit baptizing let me know.
Create false arguments much? No need, I have given you numerous simple questions, why keep ignoring them?
Got a lot more coming, so hold on.
God bless.
I defined what Baptism I was speaking about.
And seriously, you really think water baptism is associated with being baptized into Christ?
Here is what you responded to:
Here is a fuller quote of what you are responding to:
You're playing games, that is obvious.
How's that working out for you so far?
Now, are you ever going to ask this simple question: are you saying men were reconciled to God in the Old Testament?
God bless.
So you are saying men were baptized into Christ prior to Pentecost?
At Pentecost we received "the Personal Presence?"
Continued...
So the following is false...
Are you seriously denying that it was after Pentecost, when the Promised Spirit was sent, and when men began to be Baptized with the Holy Ghost...
...that men were then made one with Christ?
John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
John 14:20-23
King James Version (KJV)
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Again I ask you, are you saying men were reconciled to God?
Were men baptized into Christ?
And in case your unfamiliar with Scriptural references in Doctrinal Debate (which is all I can figure, judging your responses) the above Scripture is given to point out that Christ is foretelling of a coming day when the Disciples would be in union with the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
Continued...
I am clearly saying that the whole "Baptized by the Holy Spirit into Christ" is false teaching.
As there is only one in the New Testament, the immersion of the believer in water as a testimony of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, your definition is unbiblical.
As "being baptized into Christ" is a false teaching as the Holy Spirit never baptized anyone, and water baptism is the only baptism in the bible active today, it would seem your understanding of what the bible teaches regarding baptism is badly flawed.
Here is the scripture again, in case you missed it. Mat 3:11 I (John the Baptist) indeed baptize you in water unto repentance: but he that comes after me (The Lord Jesus Christ) is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He (The Lord Jesus Christ) shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit, and in fire.
That's bible. Accept or reject it. Your choice.
No, I am showing you, from the bible, how your teaching is wrong.
So far you continue to reject the clear teachings of the bible in favor of your man-made crazymatic nonsense.
Am I going to ask the question? No. But I have answered it. OT saints had the same relationship with God that New Testament saints have (with the possible exception of the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit). Redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, slain from the foundation of the world.
Again, the Holy Spirit is NEVER the active voice baptizer. Never. Not once. Never. "Search the scriptures to see if these things are true."
Because they are predicated on the false teaching of the crazymatic "baptism of the holy ghost" where the "holy ghost" is the one doing the baptizing. That is not in the bible. The bible says it was Christ who (collectively) baptized the church in the Holy Spirit, not the other way around.
It's not false.
Matthew 3:11-12
King James Version (KJV)
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
To be baptized by Christ with the Holy Ghost is eternal salvation; to be baptized with fire speaks of eternal judgment.
Acts 1:4-8
King James Version (KJV)
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
The disciples were not Baptized with the Holy Ghost. They would be in a few days.
Acts 11:13-18
King James Version (KJV)
13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Clearly the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is the event of salvation.
1 Corinthians 12:12-13
King James Version (KJV)
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
John 14:20-23
King James Version (KJV)
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
It's clear your understanding...
...is quite lacking, if you do not understand that being baptized into Christ is synonymous with being baptized with the Holy Ghost, which is synonymous with the Eternal Indwelling of God, whereby we are in them (the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) and They in us.
Continued...
Uh, no. The baptism of the church (collectively) by Christ into the Holy Spirit is a function of teaching and guiding ministry of the Holy Spirit acting in the church, which is made abundantly clear in John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
And the bible makes it very clear when that was to happen. Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized in water; but ye shall be baptized in the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Again, seeing you are unfamiliar with how debate works, I will point out all those Scripture references are given to support the point made. The burden is then on my antagonist (that would be you) to show why the Scripture does not make the point or how I am misunderstanding the Scripture I have given.
Understand?
If you do nod your head.
So show me what I said is false, instead of just saying "You are wrong!" lol
The fact is that this is the point of this entire discussion.
And the sad fact is that you are too scared, apparently, to address simple question which call your doctrine into question.
I have asked you several questions and so far...you haven't answered the first one.
Here is the original question:
Were men reconciled to God in the Old Testament?
Continued...
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