I am NOT a Primitive Baptist/Hyper calvinist person, that is what they believe!
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Billy Graham on How to Become a Christian
- Thread starter Saved-By-Grace
- Start date
- Status
Yes, he sided with the Church of Rome which was a concern I had being a former Catholic and (so I have heard) sent them back to the pope which would be a state of bondage.
That was my biggest problem with him, in how he seemed to be saying that Rome, Greek orthodox, Charismatics and others were all holding to the same Gospel!
They may, but likely a “mixed with” version.
It is possible.
And since we have an entire Old Testament filled with men and women who were saved, never having heard the Name of Christ once, it's not only possible...but verifued by Scripture.
What do you think Paul is saying here...
Romans 2:13-16
King James Version (KJV)
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
...?
It's humorous to watch someone who doesn't even believe in Christ mock a man that spent his life devoted to leading people to Christ.
How many people have made profession of faith based on your efforts sortasavedbygrace?
God bless.
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
people in the OT are saved by the same cross of Jesus Christ, that saves people in the NT. In both cases it is REPENTANCE and FAITH that saves the sinner. OT, faith in the God of the Bible, which is the equivalent as the NT faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, Who is the God of the OT.
As for the quote from Paul, I think that he is continuing his argument from chapter one, where he is saying that every person has a "witness" about the God of the Bible, and Jesus Christ, and therefore none can be "excused" from this.
Great. Now if you can show me a Scripture reference to back that up I'll be happy to look at it.
As it is, what we do read is that they were justified by grace through faith and works.
When you can distinguish the temporal perspective and limitations of one being justified based on what they do with being freely justified by grace through the REdemption which is in Christ Jesus, then you will understand why your works-based view is heretical:
Romans 3:21-25
King James Version (KJV)
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Old Testament Saints were indeed saved by grace through faith, but, they were not Eternally Redeemed. Their sins had not been atoned for:
Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Agreed, we too are saved by grace through faith, however, the difference being is that we are, when we turn to Christ the Risen Savior...eternally redeemed at the time of salvation.
Show me where Abraham repented.
Show me where this...
Romans 3:21-25
King James Version (KJV)
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
...states we are saved freely by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus...and repentance?
Repentance is a result of His ministry in the heart of the unbeliever. When the Comforter convicts of sin, righteousness, and judgment...repentance is generated.
No, it is not the equivalent, because general faith in God could see a man justified, but, will never see a man eternally redeemed and born again:
Hebrews 6
King James Version (KJV)
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Nor is "looking forward to Messiah" a means of eternal redemption, because if that were the case, then we would have to say all Jews who are still looking forward to MEssiah coming (the first time) are "saved" in a New Covenant context, thereby creating a second means of salvation, thus compounding the error.
That's the point, lol.
The Jew had the Word of God, the Gentile did not, and it is the one who is the doer, not the hearer...that will stand in judgment.
So in regards to the attack on Billy Graham's statement, as I said, it is not only possible those who have never heard the Gospel can end up in Heaven, it is verified by the Word of God.
God will judge every man according to his deeds, and He will judge every man according to their response to whatever revelation God has provided to them, whether this be the Testimony of Creation, the internal witness God gives every man, or, direct revelation, which is what Paul holds the Jew accountable for in Romans 1-2.
God bless.
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
Firstly, the entire Holy Bible is about ONE PERSON, Who is the Lord Jesus Christ. the OT looks forward to this, as the Bible says that it is a "shadow of things to come", which are FULFILLED in Jesus Christ.
Secondly, we read that the animal sacrifices of the OT were never able to take away the sins of the sinners, because in reality, it is ONLY the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ that can do this. He IS the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.
Thirdly, Hebrews 9:14-15 clearly says that those who sinned under the OT, were also included in the cross of Jesus Christ.
Fourthly, you write rather foolishly, that I believe in a works-based salvation. Because you cannot grasp that the Bible makes REPENTANCE a necessity for a sinner to be saved, which must include FAITH. The OT says just this, and Jesus' first words as recorded by Mark, are, "REPENT and BELIEVE in the Good News" (1:15); And "that REPENTANCE for the FORGIVENESS of sins must be preached" (Luke 24:47). Note that in Jonah 3:10, we read that when the people repented of their sins, that God say their WORKS, but not as you assume, to do something that merit their salvation, but, that THE TURNED, yes REPENTED, they actually DID something for their forgiveness. Jesus very clearly says, that REPENTANCE leads to FORGIVENESS of sins; without FORGIVENESS no persons sins are wiped clean.
Fifthly, you ask where Abraham repented. Do you believe that he was saved, and going to heaven? If so, then the Bible clearly says that in order for ANY sinner to be FORGIVEN their sins, they MUST REPENT. Just because we are not given the details, does not mean that it never happened. What God says in one place, is true for everywhere!
Sixthly, if you think that a sinner can be forgiven and be saved without first REPENTING, then you have a very FALSE understanding of salvation in the Bible. Luke 24:47 clearly refutes this, as Jesus, God Incarnate says, REPENTANCE brings about FORGIVENESS, no mention of FAITH here, though no doubt it is also a requirement, as Jesus says just this, that BOTH are a pre-requirement for salvation in Mark 1:15.
What twaddle.
Read it again and you will see quite a few people mentioned. Look especially for references to the Father and the Holy Ghost.
And many Jews who believe in the Hebrew Scriptures also look forward to Messiah coming. You want to tell me you think they are saved because of that? By the way, they are looking forward because they have rejected Jesus Christ as their Messiah. You can read about that Tradition in John 1:11.
What you are doing, SBC, is rationalizing, rather than exegeting Scripture. No man prior to the Incarnation was familiar with the Man Jesus Christ, and it was not until Pentecost that they fully understood what His Death, Burial, and Resurrection meant for mankind.
And I see you ignore the entire point of the last post, which is why you continue to fail to learn anything. The fact is that men were not eternally redeemed or eternally forgiven prior to the Cross. By equating the salvation of the Old Testament Saints prior to their sins being forgiven through Christ you diminish the Cross of Christ.
Continued...
Precisely. That has been my point all along, that it was not until Christ died that the sins of the Old Testament Saints were redeemed.
Here are relevant passages that teach that:
Romans 3:21-25
King James Version (KJV)
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Old Testament Saints were indeed saved by grace through faith, but, they were not Eternally Redeemed. Their sins had not been atoned for:
Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
These are the passages you ignored completely, preferring to indulge in a diatribe of self concocted twaddle.
Here are a few more:
Hebrews 11:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Hebrews 11:39-40
King James Version (KJV)
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
If you would study Hebrews as I have recommended before, you would see that being made perfect refers to being made complete in regards to the context it is used in. In Chapter Ten it regards being made complete in regards to remission of sins, which as I have also mentioned to you numerous times...
...is one of the big Promises of God in the Old Testament which the Old Testament Saints died not having received.
Give attention to the Word of God, my friend, and you will see the magnitude of the Cross.
Continued...
Seriously?
Hebrews 9:14-15
King James Version (KJV)
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Do you really not recognize that all men in the Old Testament offered up animal sacrifice for the remission of sins? And that is contrasted with the Sacrifice of Christ?
Note He is the Mediator of the New Covenant that men might receive the promise of eternal inheritance? And this by His death?
For the redemption of the transgressions that were under the First Covenant?
Look at it together again:
Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Not by the blood of goats and calves. By His Own blood (death). He entered into the Holy Place (Heaven, 9:24) having...
...obtained eternal redemption for us (Israel).
Here is what the blood of bulls and goats and the sprinkling of an heifer accomplished:
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
It was physical, temporal...not eternal.
Again Christ's Sacrifice is contrasted with the blood of bulls and goats and the sprinkling of an heifer:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
See the contrast between the two?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Now think back to Hebrews 11:13 and Hebrews 11:39-40, and understand the Writer's statement that the Old Testament Saints, who were men and women of faith...did not receive the promises, and were not made perfect/complete.
Continued...
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
do you believe that the Bible teaches that a sinner must first repent of their sins and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour, to be saved?
This...
Luke 24:47
King James Version (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
...doesn't change the fact that repentance is a result of the Ministry of God as He effects salvation:
Acts 11:13-18
King James Version (KJV)
13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
They were saved by the words Peter spoke, the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
They were baptized in the Holy Ghost as they listened (Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word).
God gave them the same...gift. The same gift given to the disciples of Christ at Pentecost. They received this gift because they...believed the Gospel.
God granted repentance unto (eternal) life.
Repentance is the inevitable result of the Ministry of the Comforter. When men believe they are sinners and stand separated from God and judgment looms on the horizon, they repent and this comes about through their belief in the Gospel, which I will remind you...
...has to be revealed by God to the natural mind (John 16:7-9).
Continued...
Last edited:
Absolutely, but what I am trying to get across to you is that men cannot do that unless God reveal truth to them. They will not repent of their sins until they know they are sinners. That is the reason Christ states that the Comforter will convict the world (all men) of sin, righteousness, and judgment. Of sin...
...because they believe not on Jesus Christ (John 16:7-9).
God bless.
And not one of them received Eternal Redemption because they repented.
That is another issue which confuses you: you merge the Atonement of the Cross with the atonement available to men in the Old Testament.
That is why animal sacrifice had to be continually offered, because it did not take away sin.
Now consider those who repented under Christ's earthly ministry. Take Peter, we see clearly he repented of his denial of Christ, but...
...that is not how Peter was forgiven on an eternal basis. It would be the Cross of Christ, alone, that would provide the means for Peter's sin to be forgiven on an eternal basis, and when that took place he was then immersed into God in eternal union.
That had not happened prior to his being Baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Note in John 14 not one of the Disciples of Christ is indwelt by God:
John 14:15-18; 23
King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
The eternal indwelling, which is the very reason why we have Life, was not bestowed on men in the Old Testament, not even the Disciples of Christ.
It is because they were not yet doing that one thing by which men can be saved on an eternal basis, believing on Jesus Christ as the Risen Savior. That He died for our sin that we might have Life.
They did not believe on Him prior to the Cross, and they did not believe on Him immediately after the Cross:
Mark 16:9-14
King James Version (KJV)
9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
So until you distinguish between men being saved in the Old Testament through justification based on their response to the revelation available to them at the time, and being Eternally Redeemed through Christ, you will continue to merge concepts and end up with the same weak theology so prevalent in the Church today.
We are freely justified by His grace through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus. It is His righteousness which is now made manifest.
Continued...
And you have not the first passage to present.
With all my heart.
Abraham was justified based on his response to the revelation he was provided by God. God spoke, he believed, and his works evidenced his belief. He knew God would never renege on His promises, so he knew if he sacrificed Isaac God would have to raise him from the dead to fulfill His promises:
Hebrews 11:17-19
King James Version (KJV)
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
But, Abraham died, as did all of the Old Testament Saints...
...not having received the promises.
And the Promises centers on what Christ would do for mankind.
Great. Show me what verse you have in mind. But before you do...address the points already raised to you numerous times.
If a man is told he has cancer caused by smoking and will die in four weeks, he repents of his smoking. So too when God reveals the truth of the Gospel to the natural mind...it brings about repentance. Do you not know that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? And the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the Goodness of God in the most supreme way.
I am quite sure Abraham repented of his lies, such as in the case of saying his wife was his sister. Half truth or not, it's still a lie.
But Paul doesn't include repentance as a reason for Abraham being justified:
Romans 4
King James Version (KJV)
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
And it is quite enough for men to be saved today by believing God when He opens their hearts to the truth of their condition. Will that bring about repentance? I think we can all testify to that.
Not entirely accurate. God established the Covenant of Law, and imposed conditions to be met by which men would receive atonement and remission of sins.
That is now obsolete.
Continued...
I know a sinner can be forgiven and saved without "first repenting."
I view repentance to be as instantaneous as belief and the subsequent salvation.
We just don't have one without the other.
You impose a demand on men that Scripture does not. What Scripture teaches is that men are to obey the Gospel.
And you just can't have men obeying the Gospel prior to God enlightening their minds to the Gospel. That is the Ministry of the Comforter.
This...
Luke 24:47
King James Version (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
...doesn't change the fact that repentance is a result of the Ministry of God as He effects salvation.
And that is the inevitable result of an unstable Gospel, you combat the elements of Salvation in Christ against each other.
The above statement must be be balanced with all relevant Scripture, so I will give you a couple to seek the balance through:
Matthew 28:18-20
King James Version (KJV)
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Acts 1:4-8
King James Version (KJV)
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
God is responsible for sending out the messengers.
Now I want you to carefully consider that process as defined by Peter:
Acts 11:13-18
King James Version (KJV)
13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
God grants repentance unto Life, and that is a gift of God, as you should know by now. Here we see Cornelius and his household were baptized with the Holy Ghost through the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
We don't separate repentance and make it a requirement for salvation, this nullifies the numerous passages that teach that salvation in Christ, Eternal Redemption...is freely given. That is Paul's point in regards to Abraham being justified by faith alone (believing God), if it was a work then it is then a payment for services rendered:
Romans 4
King James Version (KJV)
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Again I would suggest we do not equate Abraham's justification which is based on what he did with the Gift of God. Abraham was justified through his faith and belief, but, he was not eternally redeemed. His sins would be forgiven on an eternal basis when Christ died in His stead.
God bless.
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
And you have not the first passage to present.
With all my heart.
Abraham was justified based on his response to the revelation he was provided by God. God spoke, he believed, and his works evidenced his belief. He knew God would never renege on His promises, so he knew if he sacrificed Isaac God would have to raise him from the dead to fulfill His promises:
Hebrews 11:17-19
King James Version (KJV)
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
But, Abraham died, as did all of the Old Testament Saints...
...not having received the promises.
And the Promises centers on what Christ would do for mankind.
Great. Show me what verse you have in mind. But before you do...address the points already raised to you numerous times.
If a man is told he has cancer caused by smoking and will die in four weeks, he repents of his smoking. So too when God reveals the truth of the Gospel to the natural mind...it brings about repentance. Do you not know that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? And the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the Goodness of God in the most supreme way.
I am quite sure Abraham repented of his lies, such as in the case of saying his wife was his sister. Half truth or not, it's still a lie.
But Paul doesn't include repentance as a reason for Abraham being justified:
Romans 4
King James Version (KJV)
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
And it is quite enough for men to be saved today by believing God when He opens their hearts to the truth of their condition. Will that bring about repentance? I think we can all testify to that.
Not entirely accurate. God established the Covenant of Law, and imposed conditions to be met by which men would receive atonement and remission of sins.
That is now obsolete.
Continued...
I will only say this one more time. Explain what Jesus means in Luke 24:47 as found in the ESV translation, which is using the best textual evidence, "REPENTANCE FOR FORGIVENESS"; which means that REPENTANCE brings about FORGIVENESS of sins. This is the crux of the Gospel of the salvation for any sinner.
Saved-By-Grace
Well-Known Member
clearly you are blinded by your theology, as you remark "I know a sinner can be forgiven and saved without "first repenting.", is 100% against what Jesus says in Luke 24:27 (ESV).
This is my last comment on this, as it is clear to me that you cannot understand what the Bible teaches on a sinner being saved, nor do you really want to know!
Sorry, I missed these in a post:
There are numerous Threads and posts where the works-based foundation of your gospel is shown, so don't deny that. If you want to embrace Eternal Security that makes me very glad.
I would recall to mind our discussion of Hebrews 10:26.
That is like saying the Bible makes eternal life a requirement for being saved.
That is what it means to be saved. But when you frame it as "You must repent and then you will be saved" you err greatly, and deny the Gift of God.
So how many did?
How many men and women repented of their sin and trusted Christ as their Savior?
Not the first one. Not even from among His closest Disciples:
John 16:28-32
King James Version (KJV)
28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
Again, you cannot merge two different Eras of revelation together. Most do this, but, if you want to understand why the Disciples abandoned Christ (after being told to abide in Him) you will give attention to these details.
God bless.
There are numerous Threads and posts where the works-based foundation of your gospel is shown, so don't deny that. If you want to embrace Eternal Security that makes me very glad.
I would recall to mind our discussion of Hebrews 10:26.
That is like saying the Bible makes eternal life a requirement for being saved.
That is what it means to be saved. But when you frame it as "You must repent and then you will be saved" you err greatly, and deny the Gift of God.
So how many did?
How many men and women repented of their sin and trusted Christ as their Savior?
Not the first one. Not even from among His closest Disciples:
John 16:28-32
King James Version (KJV)
28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
Again, you cannot merge two different Eras of revelation together. Most do this, but, if you want to understand why the Disciples abandoned Christ (after being told to abide in Him) you will give attention to these details.
God bless.
- Status