Billy Graham's dark secret revealed

[steaver]

Voting is the opiate of the people. Doesn't matter for whom you vote because nothing is going to change the flow of assets from the working people to our owners. Our owners have concluded that there are to many people in the world so nothing is going to stop abortion until Jesus returns.

"opiate"...I had to look that one up! Hey, i learned something today.

Interesting theory, but I think abortion could change if all Christians would vote for pro-lifers. Remember that this was a 5 to 4 supreme court blunder. Whe need to have godly men and women in place as representatives when the time comes to replace these judges. Men and women who understands that God hates these murders and that they must appoint judges who are willing to stop the madness.

I "personally" believe that not only will our votes be reviewed at the judgment seat of Christ but also any lack of willingness to vote at all. Even though my vote may never change one policy on earth, it will be to my credit or to my debit at my judgment. Afterall, God gave me the right to vote here in America. Maybe He will ask.."did you even try to make a difference?". Maybe He will at least say I tried.

God Bless!

 

[TexasSky]

It is always easier to tear down a good man of God than to BE a good man of God.

 

[steaver]

It is always easier to tear down a good man of God than to BE a good man of God.

How do you know this?

God Bless!

 

[dianetavegia]

It's easy to be a Holy Man on top of a mountain.

 

[steaver]

I don't understand some folks. You follow the bible's example of rebuking false rhetoric and somehow you are attacking the man! Was Paul attacking Peter when he pointed out his error to all of us? Or was he keeping the word of the Lord pure?

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Bro James Reed had challenged my rhetoric when I said..."No murderer has any part in the kingdom of heaven." ...with this...

Then, by your interpretation of this scripture, the Apostle Paul will not be in the kingdom of heaven.

Perhaps you are wrong then?

I responded with this question...

What is the interpretation?

"... ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him ". (1 John 3:15)

Are you saying that Christians murder people?

Bro. Reed never returned, anyone else have a different interpretation than mine? Was Paul a Christian when he murdered people?

The Word of God declares that even hatred of another is murder. If hating someone is murder, where does elective supporting of murder fall in at?

Also, still looking for a "lesser of two evils" example. I have run most all of the political issues of the present day through my mind and I just can't justify any as greater than mass murder. Maybe someone else can think of something I'm missing.

God Bless!

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by steaver:
Thanks Mike, but the issue we have been discussing is whether or not a Christian should vote for a canidate who supports murder.

But how can you do this without discussing abortion?

I think what you have in mind is a discussion on whether abortion is right or wrong.

But in order to convince someone that it's wrong to vote for a "pro-abortion" candidate, wouldn't you first have to convince them that abortion, itself, is wrong?

The problem is some don't believe it is a big enough evil to cast a vote against it. I find that sad and troubling.

But you haven't told us why.

So far, we know that you're against abortion, that you're against candidates who are for abortion and that anyone who votes for a candidate who's for abortion is going to Hell.

If I'm a part of the audience you're trying to convince, what part of your argument am I supposed to find persuasive.

I have to be honest with you and tell you that I tend to tune out at the mention of "baby killers", because I know now that the argument is based on emotion and not on a ration, persuasive argument.

Unrepentive murderers do go to hell. The Word of God states so. Truth always irritates the unwilling to repent crowd.

Part of the problem here is that you're slinging the "baby killer" accusation at people who are not.

Don't you think that you would be able to help more pro-choice folks avoid Hell if you would stop a minute and talk to them like human beings?

Is your aim to offer hope in Christ to these people, thus, avoiding Hell? Or are you just here to call names?

Have you ever heard the saying, "if you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem"?

You're not showing me any solutions here.

If I declare that I support the right for women to murder their unborn babies as one of my political positions and I ask for your vote to put me in an office which has the power to write and sustain laws that will keep the murder going...then those who vote for me are agreeing with me in murder. Plain and simple.

I think perhaps you're misunderstanding the nature of Roe v Wade and the parameters within which Congress is bound to act.

 

[Dale]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Voting is the opiate of the people. Doesn't matter for whom you vote because nothing is going to change the flow of assets from the working people to our owners. Our owners have concluded that there are to many people in the world so nothing is going to stop abortion until Jesus returns.

"opiate"...I had to look that one up! Hey, i learned something today.

Interesting theory, but I think abortion could change if all Christians would vote for pro-lifers. Remember that this was a 5 to 4 supreme court blunder. Whe need to have godly men and women in place as representatives when the time comes to replace these judges. Men and women who understands that God hates these murders and that they must appoint judges who are willing to stop the madness.

I "personally" believe that not only will our votes be reviewed at the judgment seat of Christ but also any lack of willingness to vote at all. Even though my vote may never change one policy on earth, it will be to my credit or to my debit at my judgment. Afterall, God gave me the right to vote here in America. Maybe He will ask.."did you even try to make a difference?". Maybe He will at least say I tried.

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]I looked up opiate as well, although I was pretty sure it came from opium and knew basically what it meant.

I would have to agree that voting does tend to be an opiate but that doessn't make it wrong to vote.
As for Billy Graham and voting democratic, I hardly think that is his greatest problem. He has continually weakend the Gospel throughout his ministry to the point that there is practially nothing left of it now. He himself is a politician of religion.

I would take the "opiate" theory further though and suggest that the republican party is what has become an opiate to Christians in general. They can sit back and say that they voted for someone that is verbally pro life etc but we really never see a change.

Also, to the ones that say they wish to vote for a candidate that "has a chance to win" then I would say that most likely, if all that say that would simply vote for a third party candidate that now has no chance to win, he would then do quite well.
The problem is that Christianity now seems to believe in general that Christians are responsible for the outcome. How ever, it is obedience rather than final result that God demands.
If we would then all vote for the right, rather then for the "chance to win" I would guarantee that we would then begin to see a change in our country.
As long as we have evangelists like Billy Graham that weaken the gospel to gain a larger audience, we will have voters that vote on the basis of winning alone.

"1Co 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase."

I believe that this verse is of course talking about salvation but it applies to other areas of life as well. Voting is no different, we should vote for the best candidate but it is God who sets the rulers over us.
The same God that places us under Bill Clinton placed our ancestors under George Washington etc.

Until we get our eyes off the ratings, we will never get out of the rut of the "lesser of two evils"

Just my 2¢

 

[Dale]

Oh, I might add that abortion could and would change if christians would stop voting the lesser of two evils. We are so evil today that the greater of the evils opposes the prohibition of abortion vocally and the "lesser" of the two evils doesn't care enough to actually change anything. Of course that is on a presidential level but it seems that people want to vote from the top down with a party so the local candidates get lumped in with their presidential candidate even if they don't agree.


Also, on the topic of what is most important, Bush has involved himself and our country in open idolatry (one example was the multi god prayer service after the 9-11 attacks)

Last time I checked, "Thou Shalt Have No Other God's Before Me" came before "Thou shalt not Kill". They are both important but the first is foundational. If a candidate doesn't believe in our God, how can we expect him to value the law of our God?

Since this was originally about Billy Graham, he has aided in this compromise and has been a disgrace to the Gospel of Christ by taking away from the perfect work of Christ and adding simple works in its place.

Ok, I had better quit before I ramble on to much.

We all need to study more and rant less (me more than anyone)

 

[dianetavegia]

Dale stated: Oh, I might add that abortion could and would change if christians would stop voting the lesser of two evils.

Yep, then we'd have the worst of the worst in 'power' and abortion in drive thru clinics. No waiting!

 

[steaver]

But in order to convince someone that it's wrong to vote for a "pro-abortion" candidate, wouldn't you first have to convince them that abortion, itself, is wrong?

Hi Mike,

nobody here believes abortion is not wrong. So "convincing" them first it is wrong has no bearing on this discussion here.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The problem is some don't believe it is a big enough evil to cast a vote against it. I find that sad and troubling.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But you haven't told us why.

Here is why, Because nobody has given an example of a greater evil. That is sad and troubling. Therefor I conclude that it must'nt be a great enough evil in their eyes to cast a vote against it. That is sad and troubling.

So far, we know that you're against abortion, that you're against candidates who are for abortion and that anyone who votes for a candidate who's for abortion is going to Hell.

If you review my post I don't think you will find the latter. However those who see a nieghbor in distress and step to the other side of the road may very well be non-Christian and if that be the case then they are indeed on their way to hell. As far as I know, everyone posting here is a Christian and they believe murder is wrong. Now if they are Christian and they have been voting for pro-murder canidates it should be obvious they need to repent. Christians do wrong things and from time to time need to change course as the Holy Spirit leads. I am merely stating the Word of God. I call it like it is. If they repent, praise God, not Steaver.

If I'm a part of the audience you're trying to convince, what part of your argument am I supposed to find persuasive.

"... ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him ."(1 John 3:15)

Votes are cast for REPRESENTATIVES! Need we look that word up in the dictionary?

So what evil is greater than murder that I might choose the lesser of the two?

I have to be honest with you and tell you that I tend to tune out at the mention of "baby killers", because I know now that the argument is based on emotion and not on a ration, persuasive argument.

The argument is based on the Word of God. Your approach may be to put some surgar on it, maybe even call it "pro-choice" or "individual liberty". My approach is "your killing babies". I don't say your approach is wrong, it just isn't my way. But God Bless your way as well!

Part of the problem here is that you're slinging the "baby killer" accusation at people who are not.

And why do you believe they are not? Because they are not doing the actual killing? What are they then? "Thoughtful" "Considerate"

Just give me one issue that is a greater evil than murder on demand. I am asking for just one and yet no replies!

If you have a chance to save a life and choose not to, is that blood anyway, shape or form on your hands?

Jesus gave a message about the man who stepped aside and did nothing to save a life.

Don't you think that you would be able to help more pro-choice folks avoid Hell if you would stop a minute and talk to them like human beings?

I don't think there are any pro-choice folks here. If there are, they are probably scared to death to let it be known. I don't know why they would be frightened though, God sees their heart, right?

Your quote makes me think of Jesus when he called those Jews gathered around him the sons of the Devil! Boy that made them angry. Do you think He was treating them less than human there?

Is your aim to offer hope in Christ to these people, thus, avoiding Hell? Or are you just here to call names?

Wait a minute, now who is declaring that these folks need Christ less they go to hell?

Have you ever heard the saying, "if you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem"?

Yes, I heard that one..........Oh, are you syaing that is me? My soultion is to call on Christians to repent and cast these "representatives" of murder out on their ears rather than lie in bed with them!

You're not showing me any solutions here.

Here is one. Do as Jesus would do and help save some childrens lives. Forget about what you will wear or eat or where you will sleep. God knows you need those things. God needs you to do unto others as you would have done unto yourself.

I think perhaps you're misunderstanding the nature of Roe v Wade and the parameters within which Congress is bound to act.

Can Congress make laws limiting abortion on demand?

Can Congress confirm court judges who will limit abortion on demand?

Can the President sign into law those bills which Congress can write?

Can those appointed judges uphold the laws which Congress writes and the President signs into law?

Besides all of this, even if there is not a chance in the blue any of the murdering will ever stop before Christ's return, at least the Christian can stand before God with a clean heart on this issue and know that he/she tried to do what Jesus would do...save a life from murder.

God Bless!

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by steaver:
Hi Mike,

nobody here believes abortion is not wrong. So "convincing" them first it is wrong has no bearing on this discussion here.

So then, they should believe that it's wrong simply because you say that it is?

Here is why, Because nobody has given an example of a greater evil. That is sad and troubling. Therefor I conclude that it must'nt be a great enough evil in their eyes to cast a vote against it. That is sad and troubling.

But isn't this a cop out on your part?

You can't make an argument, so you challenge someone else to make an argument, then, when they don't answer your challenge to your satisfaction, you ignore the fact that you weren't able to make your argument in the first place?

That seems like your entire case is based on distraction.

If you review my post I don't think you will find the latter.

I see...

If you know they are supporting murder and you vote for them anyway, you are supporting murder as well. If murder is an issue that doesn't take number one priority in your vote, then God help you at judgment day. No murderer has any part in the kingdom of heaven. I would say that supporting the murderers is no different than performing the murder yourself.

[Referring to those who vote for pro-choice candidates]Unrepentive murderers do go to hell. The Word of God states so. Truth always irritates the unwilling to repent crowd.

However those who see a nieghbor in distress and step to the other side of the road may very well be non-Christian and if that be the case then they are indeed on their way to hell.

The problem is that you haven't (and won't, evidently) show that anyone has done this.

Now if they are Christian and they have been voting for pro-murder canidates it should be obvious they need to repent.

Obviously, but you still haven't demonstrated that this is murder.

I am merely stating the Word of God. I call it like it is. If they repent, praise God, not Steaver.

Ah, the old, "they're not rejecting me, they're rejecting the word of God" fallback.

"... ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him ."(1 John 3:15)

Votes are cast for REPRESENTATIVES! Need we look that word up in the dictionary?

So what evil is greater than murder that I might choose the lesser of the two?

The problem is that you're assuming that I know that this is murder.

The argument is based on the Word of God.

But it's not. I'm asking you to show me and all you're doing is just taking a couple of verses out of context.

My approach is "your killing babies". I don't say your approach is wrong, it just isn't my way. But God Bless your way as well!

And I'm asking you to understand why "you're killing babies" is not the best way to make your case to people who don't necessarily believe that abortion is killing babies.

And why do you believe they are not? Because they are not doing the actual killing? What are they then? "Thoughtful" "Considerate"

Perhaps.

Just give me one issue that is a greater evil than murder on demand.

No. You make an attempt to demonstrate your case first and then, if you cooperate, I will attempt to answer your challenge.

If you have a chance to save a life and choose not to, is that blood anyway, shape or form on your hands?

The problem is that you're assuming that voting for a pro-life candidate will "save a life" or that the foetus is a life to begin with.

I don't think there are any pro-choice folks here. If there are, they are probably scared to death to let it be known. I don't know why they would be frightened though, God sees their heart, right?

Perhaps, but that wasn't my question, was it?

Your quote makes me think of Jesus when he called those Jews gathered around him the sons of the Devil! Boy that made them angry. Do you think He was treating them less than human there?

Not at all, but then, there's quite a bit of difference between what Jesus was saying and the way that He said it and what you're doing.

Yes, I heard that one..........Oh, are you syaing that is me? My soultion is to call on Christians to repent and cast these "representatives" of murder out on their ears rather than lie in bed with them!

But you're not calling anyone to repent.

To say, "You're a baby killer. You're going to Hell!" is nothing more than the rhetorical equivilent of the flaming pile of dog crap in the paper bag, thrown on the neighbor's doorstep by a twelve year old who rings the doorbell and then runs to hide in the bushes.

Here is one. Do as Jesus would do and help save some childrens lives.

The problem here is that you're assuming that voting pro-life will necessarily "save some children's lives".

That's not true.

The second problem is that you're assuming that the congressman who might be pro-choice, will not vote to "save children's lives" in other areas.

Can Congress make laws limiting abortion on demand?

Can Congress confirm court judges who will limit abortion on demand?

Can the President sign into law those bills which Congress can write?

Can those appointed judges uphold the laws which Congress writes and the President signs into law?

Technically, no.

The best that Congress can do, as far as outlawing abortion, is to turn it back over to the states to decide.

Besides all of this, even if there is not a chance in the blue any of the murdering will ever stop before Christ's return, at least the Christian can stand before God with a clean heart on this issue and know that he/she tried to do what Jesus would do...save a life from murder.

Do you believe that Jesus told His followers to respect Caesar's authority and to be obedient to the Roman government?

 

[D28guy]

Steaver said,

(bolding mine)

"Unrepentive murderers do go to hell. The Word of God states so. Truth always irritates the unwilling to repent crowd.

If I declare that I support the right for women to murder their unborn babies as one of my political positions and I ask for your vote to put me in an office which has the power to write and sustain laws that will keep the murder going...then those who vote for me are agreeing with me in murder. Plain and simple.

So casting a political vote will send a saved, born again, redeemed by Christ christian to the doom of hell.

Casting a political vote.

Oh my.

Mike

 

[steaver]

So casting a political vote will send a saved, born again, redeemed by Christ christian to the doom of hell.

Casting a political vote.

Oh my.

Mike

Hey, there you are! Have you come up with a greater evil than mass murder yet? I believe the "lesser of two evils" was your presentation, if not I appologize. I don't have time to look back right now, I must run.

Get back to you later Mike McK.

God Bless!

 

[D28guy]

Steaver,

"a greater evil than mass murder"

Steaver, this "hierarchy of evils" thing you are on is not helping you one bit.

We are not discussing "What is the greatest evil in the world"? We are discussing your view that if someone votes...for any reason...for any candidate that supports abortion that person is therefore a hell bound murderer.

Regarding your "hierarchy of evils", Jesus said if someone has lust in their heart towards someone inappropriate they are guilty of adultery.

If someone has inapropriate anger in their heart towards someone they are guilty of murder.

Have you ever had inappropriate anger towards someone?

What does that make you?

And I'm also curious, do you believe we are justified in Gods eyes by our embracing of Jesus Christ through faith alone, as the scriptures proclaim...or do you believe we are justified by our works? Being "good enough" to go to heaven?

God bless,

Mike

 

[Plain Old Bill]

I don't think politics occupy a great deal of Billy Grahams time.My opinion, He is one of the greatest preachers of all time.

 

[PJ]

I agree, and couldn't have stated it better.

PJ

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by steaver:
It's within the realm of possibility.

Are you sure? I think you know the character of God from the scriptures and I don't think you really believe that Jesus would lead His child, when asked mind you through prayer, to support another person who supports murder.[/QUOTE]
I'm sure there are a several of people on this board who voted for Jimmy Carter or Ronald Reagan (by your standards, they both "supported murder" by "not doing enough" to end abortion). Many of those who voted for them will say unequivocably that they made their voting choice after prayer and meditation, allowing themselves to be led by the Holy Spirit on whom they should vote for.

Does this mean that the Holy Spirit has never personally lead you to vote for a canidate who supports murder?

I have a cardinal rule. I never dosclose my voting choices with other people. It's my personal and private decision, and no one has any business knowing whom I voted for. I have never disclosed to anyone here who I voted for in elections past. If, however, I told you whom I voted for, I'm sure you'd take issue with at least some of them for one reason or another. That does not, however, give you moral or scriptural authority to condemn my voting choices. You may personally disagree with them, but make a moral judgement? Sorry, Scripture does not give you that authority.

Isn't abortion, death penalty, euthenasia, property rights, slavery, or religion ALL about individual liberties? Please be more specific.

I wasn't aware that some individual liberties were less important than others.

 

[steaver]

Hi Mike & Mike and John,

You guys have posted some good replies and I am eagar to respond. My work load this week has just about doubled here for Wed thru Sat. I'm up at 6:30 and out til about 10:00 pm. So I will talk to you all as soon as possible. This has been a good discussion so far. Thank you all for your participation!

God Bless!

I'll be back!

 

[steaver]

Steaver, this "hierarchy of evils" thing you are on is not helping you one bit.

May I remind you that this "hierarchy of evils" thing was what you entered this discussion on. It was one of your reasons as to why a Christian voter would vote for a canidate who supports murder. You did not call it "hiearchy of evils" then though, you called it the "lesser of two evils".

Here are your quotes...

Many times someone votes for the "least of two evils". In other words..."Gee, I dont agree with everything regarding either candidate, but I have more agreement...and less disagreement...with option "B" here, so I'll vote for him"

They want to vote for the one...of the ones who are legitimate candidates...that they think is the best. And there could be a multiplicity of reasons why Joe Votecaster might feel that so and so is the better candidate. Joe Votecaster may not agree with everything that candidate stands for, but Joe feels that he/she is the best of the legitimate options.

And God sees the motivation behind Joe Votecasters vote...and God knows full well that Joe hates the murder of babies but felt that this candidate is the lesser of 2 evils(for whatever reason), and God is not going to hold anything against Joe because of Joes vote.

No thoughtful voter votes just because he wants to win. They vote because they want the candidate to be elected that they feel best represents...not necesarrily completly represents, but best represents...their views on how society should progress.

In my hypothetical Joe Votecaster is not voting for any of those reasons. He is thoughtfully voting for the candidate they they feel is the best of the 2 options. Not the perfect candidate, but the best of the 2.

He didnt want to waste his vote on some obscure candidate, or just give a "write in" vote fo Daffy Duck or something. He chose to vote for the legitimate candidate whom he thought was the best of the options, looking at all the issues...not just abortion.

Above you said..." In my hypothetical "...so I have been asking for you to elaborate on your hypothetical situation and give me a Joe votecaster's present day political issue situation where a Christian would find abortion the lesser of two evils.

This has been your "hierarchy of evils" position, not mine. I have asked you to defend it by example, but here is the problem brother...it is a indefensible position. A Christian cannot defend such a worldly position as "I chose the lesser of two evils" without 1) giving biblical evidence that the two are evil and that one is lesser than the other 2) proving that they had no other choice but to pick one of the two evils.

Can you, or can you not, give an example of your hypothetical situation of choosing the lesser of two evils?

I believe you cannot because it is a position not worthy of a Christian to take and that you should abandon any defense thereof. But I am open to consider any example you might give and examine it in the light of God's Word to see if it could be just.

Now on to your other comments...

We are discussing your view that if someone votes...for any reason...for any candidate that supports abortion that person is therefore a hell bound murderer.

This is not true and it is not what I believe. You have misrepresented what I have been saying. Let me say I know you realize we are speaking about Christians and not just anybody, I just want everyone watching to understand that.

No Christian is ever "hell bound". Christians are fully forgiven and sealed unto the day of redemption.

If they have been ignorantly supporting murder and are shown from scripture that this is wrong, they will repent and cease from doing so in the future. It would cast much doubt on their profession of Christ if this were not the case. So are the unrepentant truly saved? God would have to make that final call, but it does say you will know them by their fruits.

Regarding your "hierarchy of evils", Jesus said if someone has lust in their heart towards someone inappropriate they are guilty of adultery.

It is your "hiearchy of evils" approach to voting and not mine. Lust for another woman is lust and it is adultery of the heart.

If someone has inapropriate anger in their heart towards someone they are guilty of murder.

No, if "someone" has hate in their heart they are guilty of murder and ... " ye know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him ". These "somebodies" would therefor not be Christians. Unless you have another interpretation of 1John 3:15.

Have you ever had inappropriate anger towards someone?

Anger is anger. In your anger do not sin. I have sinned while in anger. I then repented and asked forgiveness from God and the person I sinned against.

What does that make you?

A sinner saved by grace.

And I'm also curious, do you believe we are justified in Gods eyes by our embracing of Jesus Christ through faith alone, as the scriptures proclaim...or do you believe we are justified by our works? Being "good enough" to go to heaven?

"As the scriptures proclaim".

God Bless!