Billy Graham's dark secret revealed

[D28guy]

steaver,

I said...

Steaver, this "hierarchy of evils" thing you are on is not helping you one bit.

And you said...

May I remind you that this "hierarchy of evils" thing was what you entered this discussion on.

And may I remind you that I wasnt speaking of a hierarchy of sins. My hypothetical was a voter who chooses candidate "A" over candidate "B".

I said...

"And I'm also curious, do you believe we are justified in Gods eyes by our embracing of Jesus Christ through faith alone, as the scriptures proclaim...or do you believe we are justified by our works? Being "good enough" to go to heaven?"

And you said...

As the scriptures proclaim

Meaning what? That you believe we are justified through faith alone? Or that you believe the scriptures proclaim that we are justified by being "good enough"?

If the 1st, then get with the program and stop saying that if a born again person happens to pick a candidate who is pro-abortion he cancels out his salvation and will burn in hell.

If the 2nd, then you need to stop trusting in...and proclaiming...a false gospel and start trusting in...and proclaiming...the true one.

God bless,

Mike

 

[steaver]

Steaver...

Hi Mike,

nobody here believes abortion is not wrong. So "convincing" them first it is wrong has no bearing on this discussion here.
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Mike...
So then, they should believe that it's wrong simply because you say that it is?

Mike...They already AGREE it is murder! I DO NOT need to convince them it is and it is not just because I say so! Somewhere along the line before they ever spoke with me they concluded it was wrong! Why do I need to convince them of what they already believe??? You are puzzling brother.

You can't make an argument, so you challenge someone else to make an argument, then, when they don't answer your challenge to your satisfaction, you ignore the fact that you weren't able to make your argument in the first place?

That seems like your entire case is based on distraction.

Mike, no offense brother, but you are trying to deliberate a whole other issue here. You want to discuss why abortion is murder and nobody here believes it is NOT! Why don't you understand that whether or not it is murder is not what I and others have been speaking about? We all say it is! This discussion is about "voting" for canidates who support abortion.

You say I make no argument as to why voting for these abortion canidates is wrong?

Steaver...

"... ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him ."(1 John 3:15)

Votes are cast for REPRESENTATIVES! Need we look that word up in the dictionary?

I haven't seen any rebutal on this from you. Show me that my argument is wrong rather than declare that i haven't made one.

Mike...I see...

Steaver...If you know they are supporting murder and you vote for them anyway, you are supporting murder as well. If murder is an issue that doesn't take number one priority in your vote, then God help you at judgment day. No murderer has any part in the kingdom of heaven. I would say that supporting the murderers is no different than performing the murder yourself.

[Referring to those who vote for pro-choice candidates]Unrepentive murderers do go to hell. The Word of God states so. Truth always irritates the unwilling to repent crowd.


quote:
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However those who see a nieghbor in distress and step to the other side of the road may very well be non-Christian and if that be the case then they are indeed on their way to hell.
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Mike...The problem is that you haven't (and won't, evidently) show that anyone has done this.

You lost me there brother. Not sure what you asking me to show. Do you want a name of someone or what?

quote:Steaver
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Now if they are Christian and they have been voting for pro-murder canidates it should be obvious they need to repent.
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Mike...Obviously, but you still haven't demonstrated that this is murder.

Ok, are you saying that I haven't demonstrated that voting for a pro murder canidate is being a murderer yourself? Or that abortion is murder?

Let me demostrate the first...

Paul said..."Now then we are ambassadors for Christ"(2 Cor. 5:20)

Should not EVERYTHING a Christian does be a representation for Jesus Christ? When a Christian casts a vote, should it not represent Jesus Christ?

quote:Steaver
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"... ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him ."(1 John 3:15)

Votes are cast for REPRESENTATIVES! Need we look that word up in the dictionary?

So what evil is greater than murder that I might choose the lesser of the two?
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Mike...The problem is that you're assuming that I know that this is murder.

That what is murder? The voting for murder or abortion?

quote:Steaver
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The argument is based on the Word of God.
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Mike...But it's not. I'm asking you to show me and all you're doing is just taking a couple of verses out of context.

What verses are out of context and please give me the "corrected" context according to Mike.

quote:Steaver
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My approach is "your killing babies". I don't say your approach is wrong, it just isn't my way. But God Bless your way as well!
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Mike...And I'm asking you to understand why "you're killing babies" is not the best way to make your case to people who don't necessarily believe that abortion is killing babies.

Once again brother, NOBODY here believes that abortion is NOT the killing of babies! Start a new thread on the abortion equals murder subject and leave this thread to the voting subject, please!

quote:Steaver
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Just give me one issue that is a greater evil than murder on demand.
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Mike...No. You make an attempt to demonstrate your case first and then, if you cooperate, I will attempt to answer your challenge.

Thank you! I thought so.

quote:Steaver
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If you have a chance to save a life and choose not to, is that blood anyway, shape or form on your hands?
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Mike...The problem is that you're assuming that voting for a pro-life candidate will "save a life" or that the foetus is a life to begin with.

No, I am not assuming no such thing. The vote is just a representation of the heart before God. Whether or not it prevents the murder is not this issue. As far as the fetus being life, again another topic that has no bearing in this discussion for everyone here believes that it is indeed a human life.

But you're not calling anyone to repent.

To say, "You're a baby killer. You're going to Hell!" is nothing more than the rhetorical equivilent of the flaming pile of dog crap in the paper bag, thrown on the neighbor's doorstep by a twelve year old who rings the doorbell and then runs to hide in the bushes.

My rhetoric alone calls for repentence. Can you show me were you got those quotes from my post?....Don't bother looking, you know they are not there.

quote:Steaver
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Here is one. Do as Jesus would do and help save some childrens lives.
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Mike...The problem here is that you're assuming that voting pro-life will necessarily "save some children's lives".

That's not true.

The second problem is that you're assuming that the congressman who might be pro-choice, will not vote to "save children's lives" in other areas.

Maybe it will save some lives maybe it won't. Maybe I shouldn't help the man dieing along the street because he may not live anyway? The issue is casting a vote as an ambassador for Christ...Christian!

Do you believe that Jesus told His followers to respect Caesar's authority and to be obedient to the Roman government?

Do you believe Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego should have obeyed the King rather than God?

There is a difference in Scripture between "respect" and "obedience" and where those lines are drawn.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

And may I remind you that I wasnt speaking of a hierarchy of sins. My hypothetical was a voter who chooses candidate "A" over candidate "B".

How long are you going to dance around this? You made numerous post about the "lesser of two evils" being a reason for voting for a pro-murder canidate. If you believe something you sure ought to be able to defend it by examples. Do you have an example or not? If not then your reasoning is void and not any reason at all.

Meaning what? That you believe we are justified through faith alone? Or that you believe the scriptures proclaim that we are justified by being "good enough"?

Faith alone, born again, sealed forever, eternal life. OSAS!

If the 1st, then get with the program and stop saying that if a born again person happens to pick a candidate who is pro-abortion he cancels out his salvation and will burn in hell.

Please give my quote(s) were I said the above.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

I'm sure there are a several of people on this board who voted for Jimmy Carter or Ronald Reagan (by your standards, they both "supported murder" by "not doing enough" to end abortion).

Not by my standards John. It is not about "not doing enough". It is about having freedom to vote for a REPRESENTATIVE and choosing one who does or does not support murder.

Before I came to learn God's way and did not vote at all, i wanted Bill Clinton to win even though I didn't vote. I liked his "to each their own" liberal approach to life and the country. I thought abortion was wrong but hey "to each their own". Now I know God's way and realize that even my lack of voting was personally supporting the murder. I repented, began to vote, and have not found any issue which trumps the murdering of babies in the womb. I ask before if you have, have you? Give me some examples.

Many of those who voted for them will say unequivocably that they made their voting choice after prayer and meditation, allowing themselves to be led by the Holy Spirit on whom they should vote for.

Well that leads us back to whether or not Jesus Christ would lead His children to vote for pro-murder canidates. I am afraid that I will not declare the answer yes for fear of God and what I have read concerning the nature of God in the Scriptures. I would never dare make any such claim as "the Spirit lead me to vote for..." if that canidate was an open supporter of extermination.

I have a cardinal rule. I never dosclose my voting choices with other people. It's my personal and private decision, and no one has any business knowing whom I voted for. I have never disclosed to anyone here who I voted for in elections past. If, however, I told you whom I voted for, I'm sure you'd take issue with at least some of them for one reason or another. That does not, however, give you moral or scriptural authority to condemn my voting choices. You may personally disagree with them, but make a moral judgement? Sorry, Scripture does not give you that authority.

I have a Christian rule. I earnestly try to conduct my actions and my speech every day in a way that requires no cover up on my part or shame to me or Jesus Christ publically. Although my choices are not always good ones, I accept rebuke from Scripture from others and correct my ways as the Holy Spirit reveals them unto me.

I wasn't aware that some individual liberties were less important than others.

Well, take another look brother. If your dead all of the others matter not! "Right to Life"?

Give me one liberty that is more important to that person in the womb than NOT being ripped to shreads until death! Just one will do brother.

God Bless!

 

[D28guy]

Steaver,

I said...

And may I remind you that I wasnt speaking of a hierarchy of sins. My hypothetical was a voter who chooses candidate "A" over candidate "B".

And you said...

How long are you going to dance around this? You made numerous post about the "lesser of two evils" being a reason for voting for a pro-murder canidate. If you believe something you sure ought to be able to defend it by examples.

You'll have to find someone who has voted for a "pro-baby killing" candidate. I've never voted for one.

Start a thread and put out a call for one. There are probably some around.

I said...

"Meaning what? That you believe we are justified through faith alone? Or that you believe the scriptures proclaim that we are justified by being "good enough"?

And you said...

Faith alone, born again, sealed forever, eternal life. OSAS!

Which would mean that this statement of mine applies to you...

If the 1st, then get with the program and stop saying that if a born again person happens to pick a candidate who is pro-abortion he cancels out his salvation and will burn in hell.

And you know say...

Please give my quote(s) were I said the above.

Good grief...where would I start. You have been saying...over and over again, in response to many posts...that if someone votes for a baby killer they are therefore a baby killer and murderers will not be let into heaven. You even said every political vote a persom makes will be brought up at the judgment.

here are a few quotes...

Many "Christians" try to find a way to justify their vote for murder. God sees.

That is correct. They are only a murderer if they knowingly cast a vote for a person who stands for abortion, democrat or republican or any other. It matters not what party they are registered in.

Unrepentive murderers do go to hell. The Word of God states so.

I "personally" believe that not only will our votes be reviewed at the judgment seat of Christ but also any lack of willingness to vote at all.

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

[steaver]

You'll have to find someone who has voted for a "pro-baby killing" candidate. I've never voted for one.

Praise God! If any are watching, maybe they will give me a greater evil than abortion. I personally don't think any exist in this present political day, but if your hypothetical is actually feasable, one will emerge.

As for my quotes...

"Many "Christians" try to find a way to justify their vote for murder. God sees".

I placed Christians in quotes. My way of distinguishing true Christian apart from professing "Christians."

True Christians do not murder people and it is my opinion that they would not support in anyway shape or form those who do. Their hearts would not allow it through Christ. I do believe that true Christians can be very ignorant to their own sinful actions.

"That is correct. They are only a murderer if they knowingly cast a vote for a person who stands for abortion, democrat or republican or any other. It matters not what party they are registered in."

Again, true Christians do not murder people nor support it. If they are shown their error, they will repent and vote accordingly in the future. They are not considered murderers because they done it out of ignorance.

"Unrepentive murderers do go to hell. The Word of God states so."

It does state so, Christians do not murder.

"I "personally" believe that not only will our votes be reviewed at the judgment seat of Christ but also any lack of willingness to vote at all."

I do believe this. If one is at the judgment seat of Christ, they are saved. If they have ignorantly voted for murder they have already been forgiven. Supporting murder is totally against the character of Jesus Christ and His Word. Christians do not murder people and it would naturally follow that they do not support murder in anyway shape or form.

Maybe they have been prompted to repent of their voting habits but have refused the rebuke and prompting as well.

You have two scenarios...

1) The person is not really a Christian and therefor will not be at the judgment seat of Christ.

2) The person is a Christian who is resisting the Holy Spirit and the bretheren's rebukes. If this be the case, they will stand before Christ ashamed, but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

So, a true Christian can blantantly refuse to reject pro-abortion canidates and still enter heaven. I believe this would be an exception to the Christian life, but it is possible.

I hope this clears up my rhetoric.

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

I on the other hand am not tied to OSAS - so I could "arguably" insist that voting for abortion is a sign of "Bad fruit" as Matt 7 might define it.

Voting in favor of murder of the innocent certainly can not be thought of as "Good fruit" and I have no problems agreeing that OSAS would not survive in that environment.

However that is a statement in general and not a judgment or evaluation of any specific person - such as Billy Graham.

I agree with those who have posted that he is a godly Christian saint. But I would not argue that his views are "flawless" particularly on the "Abortion is not that important" front when it comes to politics.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

I seen on TV today part of a documentary on the Clintons. I am posting this here because it appears the voting issue is finished (praise God) and it has to do with a question concerning abortion (for me that is) and this was the main discussion here.

They were puffing Hillary up for her courageous stand in China when she openly condemned, so to speak, in a public speech the killing of baby girls there.

I wonder how she would have answered if the Emperor would have turned and asked her why do Americans slaughter millions of baby boys and baby girls right in their mother's wombs?

Wouldn't it be quite interesting watching her explain this after scolding them for their murdering practices. Very hypocritical!

Think about. How could she explain to this man that turning a baby around in the womb, pulling it out by the feet all but the head, stabbing it in the skull and sucking out it's brains is not the same as killing baby girls after they are born!!!

But hey, let's not let that bother us when casting a vote. Maybe the canidate is going to throw some money in the direction of the children that have dodged the abortion clinic!

I'm sorry, didn't mean to get that subject going again.

I just thought it was ironic when I seen them praising Hillary for speaking out on baby killing in China.

Sad, very sad.

I wonder if she agreed with her husband's decision to NOT ban partial-birth abortion.

God Bless!